User Panel
Posted: 10/10/2007 4:28:22 PM EDT
This subject is worthy of note under any conditions but the coincidence is truly remarkable as this second (actually the first) genocide of the 20th century was a topic on another thread last evening. (That thread is now retired.) Further, I had no idea House recognition was needed to recognize or designate the Armenian genocide as a holocaust. I thought the Turkish attempts to destroy an entire population based on ethnicity was recognition enough. Most likely the House is using this symbolic recognition as an attempt to alienate Turkey (Turks were the primary killers of the Armenians) and, thus harm the Bush efforts to fight the Iraq war. Much of our supply is done through Turkey IIRC. 5sub
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A capsule of the slaughter. 5sub |
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Retribution. 5sub |
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I fear that our politicians have gone from 'Not having our best interests at heart' to 'Actively destroying our war fighting ability thus leading to our destruction' with all the blatant crap they are stirring up.
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I guess they read it wrong as the American genocide. The evening ABC world news had the story all screwed up. I doubt they are alone.
Dennis Jenkins
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Truly despicable. (Maybe better: True and despicable.) 5sub |
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To me, it looks like more Democrat bullshit aimed at making our efforts in Iraq fail. I'll be putting on my flame suit just in case but, who gives a shit what happened there 90 years ago?
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Not sure they should do this at this time. Might be best to have Iran hold a conference on this so they can do some calculations and see if it was really genocide...
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The fucking Dimocrats may yet succeed in further screwing our military. Certainly they are trying.
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We need the turks for military supply flights. Bush was offering favors right, left and center to try to stop this. |
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Supposedly they fought hard for our side in Korea. |
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I believe you are correct. Good analysis. |
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Exactly. 5sub |
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we also had nukes there during the cold war, iirc. however, they wouldn't let us invade iraq through their border. |
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There are also several Dem congressional districts with large blocks of Armenian voters that need pandering. |
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Lemme guess, you're Greek? |
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"Aid and Comfort" is another appropriate pair of words to describe it. |
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Looks like Turkey isn't reacting to the news so well. They called their US-based envoy back home. Protests outside the US embassy in Turkey.
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Page 2 ownage. BigDozer66 |
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That's great and all... But what business is it of Congress? They have enough trouble writing laws without trying to write (or interpret) history. |
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And the only functioning country with a lot of Muslims other than Israel. We could have handled this better. |
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Wait a sec...
This shit happened almost 100 years ago... in another country... that no longer exists. And we're just now getting excited about it? Congressional Resolutions are freaking |
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From what I can tell, this act of Congress serves no constructive purpose whatsoever. According to the history posted on the first page of this thread, most or all of those responsible for the massacres were hunted down and dealt with. The event should remain as history, not a current topic of discussion. |
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I'm torn on this issue as I believe that we as a principled nation should call a spade a spade, even when it isn't in our best interest to do so.
The problem I have with this is "Why now?" The events took place 90 years ago, and can only damage a relationship that is vital to American interests in an ongoing conflict. You can't really be principled when you use the death of a million people 90 years ago to further your current political agenda. yak |
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It is happening now for one reason: immigration. When people like me talk about slowing down legal as well as illegal immigration, some of the reasons are the same. Recent immigrants from substantially different cultures form enclaves and if they are clan-based, closed societies that look out for their own interests above that of the country as a whole. We have gotten a buttload of immigration from places like Armenia into areas with a small Cold War Armenian population and these folks are, via lobbying and donations, driving this. It is coming at a bad time, but that has nothing to do with it. This is another problem with the Bush/Kennedy immigration deal. The problems of other people's become US problems by dint of lobbying when the US has no interest of any kind whatsoever in those issues. |
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Yep. The Democrats are using anything they can find to fuck us in the ass, and then blame it all on President Bush. Komintern got everything it could ever have wished for in today's Democrats. |
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Lemme guess your a Turk? These guys are basically muslim-lite The Turks need a good ass beating to remind them of what the did to Britain and Australia. Galopoli - A tarnish to the Queens Crown |
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No. Please see my post above. This particular issue has been percolating since the exodus of Amenians from the former Soviet states really picked up. Reps from areas with a lot of Armenians started agitating for this when Bill Clinton was in his first term. There are enough Armenians to lobby the political process to make this happen now. They also tried it a few times in the Bush administration and he didn't give a damn because Iraq wasn't going as badly then, and IIRC that was being pushed by Republicans. This is an immigration issue, essentially. Armenians here now want to screw the Turks over there. They are attempting to make their ethnic issues an American national priority, just like Mexicans in the US trying to make the support of their relatives in Mexico a national priority. |
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Remember when the Democrats said we need to be more sensitive to international opinion and act with the support and approval of our allies?
Hmmm..... I guess that goes out the window when you have an opportunity to make life more difficult for a president you don't like. |
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No, please see my two posts above. This issue has been building for years. It's an immigration issue, essentially. We are getting lobbied to continue obscure ethnic hatreds. When this came up earlier, the Turks were annoyed that Bush didn't give a damn. He didn't have to because things weren't as bad up from Kuwait. Now that Bush is desperate, he "cares". This may also screw Bush, but the origins and drivers aren't with Democratic partisan politics, really. |
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Who can blame them? They are already ill-tempered over the Kurdish question, and now out of the blue the legislature of somebody who is supposed to be an ally decides to pass a resolution calling them a bunch of genocidal maniacs for something that happened almost 100 years ago. We in the United States are used to that sort of treatment because we're the 800 pound gorilla in the world. Other nations aren't used to that sort of nonsense...ESPECIALLY from the 800 pound gorilla. |
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It's the international equivalent of telling the Turks that their momma sells it on the street. It's nothing but a political stunt that the dumbasses in Congress think will help them get a bump in the polls....which is more than worth making an already difficult situation in Iraq even MORE difficult, right? This is what happens when you let f*cking chimps control Congress. |
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That may be part of it, but I assure you the (D)s in the house see it as a way to fuck our troops in Iraq in the ass. |
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Yes, that may be opportunistic, but I assure you that this is the result of an ethnic lobby reaching critical mass, and, like Bush assuring Arabs from Michigan that they were being unfairly profiled on airplanes and pushing PC standards with penalties that made airline people afraid to confront folks that they profiled as hijackers (like Mohammed Atta, profiled by a ticket agent who said that he was afraid of being accused of prejudice if he stopped the guy), this will have negative consequences. This is another issue of our out-of-control immigration policies, first and foremost. |
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Yes, and the resolution's key supporters are doing this for the ethnic Armenian vote in their districts. This is an immigration issue, folks. It is being driven by unassimilated immigrants from clan-based societies forming enclaves in the US and trying to bend the democratic process to their own ethnic goals. We will see more and more things that make no sense to US interests becoming policy as time goes on with the formation of more and more ethnic lobby groups. |
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It was just more of those Muslim types killing Christian infidels...that cant be genocide. Fuck Turkey they are not a real ally. Remember the 4th ID that was not allowed to enter into Iraq...how about their incursions into the Kurdish part of Iraq against our wishes. Yeah they are real helpful and good buddies to us. Fuggem!
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Not a drop of blood in my body that came from east of the Adriatic, as far as I know. Should we also give the Germans today "a good ass beating" to remind them of Normandy, say? |
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Actually, at the time it had to do with crypto-Jewish Greeks who were part of the Turkish military trying to get local Turkish Sunni Muslims to drive out Christian Armenians from former Shiite Kurdish lands. Religion didn't have a lot to do with this unless you like using Microsoft Project for your conspiracy theories. It was a land grab. And the Turks have been damned good allies for a long time. GHW Bush left them twisting in the breeze after the Second Gulf War (the first one we were in) and Clinton abused them, then they put up with Bush's idiots telling them what they "had" to do while Powell's State Department told them that they would never be forgiven if they did. They had no dog in the fight, they were annoyed that the US was ignoring the Kurdish crime syndicates operating from US-protected Iraq, and so they sat it out. That move is widely seen in Turkey today as a mistake, by the way. This is more complicated, and it could have been handled a lot better. Losing the Turks may be yet another one of Bush's amazing avoidable mistakes. Again, this resolution is not in the best interests of the US. Why is it happening? Ultimately, immigration. It's time to close off the tap for a few years, at least. |
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For those of us not that familiar with the history of this, can you expand on the section in blue? I'm surprised that the Kurds in that area were Shia. |
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-1 It's a backdoor way for the Dems to undermine the War on Terror by alienating Turkey. |
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So, they have all other business concluded? They have time to worry about shit that happened a century ago?
Actually, I take that back. The more time they spend argueing about and passing meaningless resolutions the less time they have to spend money and raise taxes and eliminate freedoms. |
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The Ottoman military was a very mixed bunch of folks, with Slavs, Kurds, Arabs, Greeks, and so on. Attaturk was a half-Jewish (mother's side) Greek, for instance. Anatolia was a huge patchwork of small peoples. The Armenians had moved in as traders for 200+ years, often into Kurdish areas because a lot of the Kurds there were pretty primitive, the core of Kurdish development being in the far south of what is now Iranian Kurdistan. What the Ottomans,seeing the writing on the wall, wanted was an ethnostate of Turks and Turkic people. The Armenians weren't. They got local Turks to kill them off, sometimes Kurds (but not all that often) in exchange for Armenian property and land. They were looking at the European nation states and seeing the future, and it looked like the patchwork of small peoples had to go. My understanding is that a lot of the Kurds in what is now Turkey at one point were somewhat Shiite, but have been pretty solidly Sunni for most of the last century, and that they were Shiite because of the Persian influence. What I was told by a Turk was that at one point the Kurds were probably secretly Shiite and after a certain point that died off. Right now, I think that the breakdown is 35/35/20/10 for Sunni/Shiite/Christian/Yezdi with the whole Kurdish population, and you also have some Jewish Kurds, but most of them have been in Israel since the 1960s. Not all of the Kurdish religious mix makes sense -- the last Jewish Kurds actually live in Iran and don't want to leave, and probably a majority of the Iranian Kurds are Sunni, so in Iraqi Kurdistan you have Christian Kurds trying to get the US to back off of Shiite Iranians to make life easier on Sunni Kurds trying to see relatives in Iran. ETA: Something that is really odd when you think about it is that the father of the only successful secular Muslim democracy was actually Jewish and and from an ethnic group that had been in conflict with Turkey for 800+ years at that point. ETA: If this is all clear as mud, that's the late history of the Ottoman Empire. |
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This is my view as well. Damn Democrats are using the Armenian Genocide to further their political agenda but at the same time it is important to highlight the murder of millions of people. I'm torn as well. |
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Well there Turkish expert that may well be the case. What I am saying is sarcastic as to the religion aspect. I betting today the Muslim Turkish attitude is that they were just Christian squatters on Muslim land and they had it coming so genocide it was not...it was justified Jihad. If Turks were such good allies they would have let us go through with the 4th ID thats all I am saying. Yeah the Demoncats are trying to bring this about as another way to interfere with Bush in Iraq. If the Turks cant see this than they really are not the allies we think they are! |
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I have never heard this from Turks. It is a straight up ethnic issue. They do verbal gymnastics about the Armenians suddenly becoming "enemy aliens", which is BS. It was a land grab, pure and simple. As to the current Turkish irritation, that has been a long time coming. Again, there were better ways to handle this. |
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Put aside the ethnic strife angle and some Congresscritters want to stick to GWB angle. A reasonable person must ask why are they wasting their time with this? This genocide was committed by the Ottoman Empire, which DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE! The people that were responsible for this atrocity were either assassinated or simply died of old age. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that Congress is trying to accomplish this idiotic resolution because they can't accomplish anything else! |
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Please, please, please read my previous posts on this. This is happening because of heavy lobbying by Armenian lobbying groups. Due to post '89 immigration from the former Soviet Union, areas with small Armenian groups now have really large Armenian populations. Big enough to get enough money together to lobby for this. They are making their ethnic issues an American national issue by buying face time with reps and delivering votes. This is consituent service, pure and simple, for reps in districts with a lot of ethnic Armenians, and these constituents want to pick a fight with the Turks with the power of the US government. The longer we allow enclaves of unassimilated foreigners to grow, the more of these exact problems we will have. This is an immigration issue, just like people in the US lobbying for more immigration to get their relatives out of Mexico and on US welfare. |
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Yeah but . . . as others mentioned this was done to stir up shit with an ally in the WOT. |
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Oh, they handled it well. Whatever it takes to srew things up. Can we call them "unpatriotic" now? |
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