User Panel
Posted: 10/5/2007 6:55:05 AM EDT
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Long article, I know...but the Liberty is just one of those subjects that deserves resolution...particularly for those who were killed that day.
IMO, Israel knew exactly what they were doing and who they were attacking....along with some high ranking U.S. officials. The whole thing disgusts me frankly. |
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You've heard the "why." Conspiracy theories are just more fun to talk about on the internet than a case of mistaken identity. Matt |
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Just because we don't understand "why?" doesn't mean it didn't happen. |
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Israel LIED. They MURDERED our sailors and then covered it up. They sell our weapons technology to China and North Korea, spy on us and then suck up free billions in economic and weapons grants paid for by the US Taxpayer.
Iran hell? Israel is as much an enemy as Iran. |
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Oh, by the way... if an Israeli pilot was convinced enough that the ship was American (and not a legitimate target) before he fired to ask his controller TWICE, he wouldn't have fired. I can't think of any fighter-pilots (from any nation) who would have pursued an un-briefed attack on a questionable target. That's just not the way we do business.
In order to fire, the pilot would be convinced (mistakenly) that the ship was a legitimate enemy combatant (mistaken identity). Matt |
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As I sit here in my nice cushy leather chair, eating lunch, those two ships look a bit different. In the midst of an attack on my country, from the seat of my fighter at 5000' and with orders to attack the ship at that location... such a mistake is very possible. I don't think most of you appreciate the way the world looks from a few thousand feet up... especially with the relatively ancient targeting technology available at that time. Given the legitimate evidence, I am convinced the pilots believed they were attacking an enemy combatant. Once they realized their mistake, they ceased the attack. Matt |
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Me too. I will never think of The USS Liberty without thinking of him. |
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What if they were confirming that it was indeed the correct target... |
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America was not a combatant in that war. If the pilots received confirmation that the ship was American, they would not have pursued the attack - regardless of orders. Pilots are not known (in any nation) for blindly following orders. That's one of the reasons they are officers in most countries. Matt |
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If you're a fighter/attack pilot for an air force of a coastal nation and you can't differentiate between a broken down, dirty boat 275 ft long and one that's squared away and Haze Gray with eight foot white designation letters on the hull, an American flag and a giant dish antenna, that's 455 ft long, you have no business being in the same compartment with the firing controls of anti-ship missiles. No one was shooting at those IAF fighters. They flew around the Liberty for two hours before they opened fire. |
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Have you EVER flown off the coast and tried to ID ships while keeping your own aircraft outside the WEZ (weapons engagement zone) of the suspected ship? Without a targeting pod and a VERY intimate knowledge of every ship out there (or at least a very thick book with pictures and names), it's a bit more difficult than you think it is. Also, these pilots were trained to attack ground targets since most of the threat was coming from the desert - not the sea. Tactical flying is a VERY perishable skill. If they weren't training to ID ships, you can bet they could easily make the mistake. As I recall, they also didn't use anti-ship missiles...
I guarantee those particular fighters did not fly around for two hours and then attack in the manner described. They don't have the gas for it. After reading threads like this one, I tried IDing ships - hell, I'd have been happy to be able to ID the flag from the altitude at which I was flying - in the Gulf without using my targeting pod... You are assuming WAY too much about how pilots operate and what the world looks like from 5-10k feet. Matt |
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Amazing how the Izzy's score a particularly successful raid on on the Syrians recently, benefiting Israel and America, and the Jew-hating crowd drags out the USS Liberty to hash over in the media again.
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Great article, except for the fact the ISRAEL HAD NO FUCKING REASON TO ATTACK THEM ON PURPOSE.
I guess facts shouldnt get in the way of a good conspiracy theory. Say did you guys hear the one about how the US government faked the moon landing!!! |
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Ok, so I read some more of the article... They're saying the Israelis wanted the ship sunk... Yet the aircraft were not armed to sink it.... A couple of 500# dumb bombs could have made short work of that ship.
Matt |
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As soon as I read in that article that the Liberty was hit by napalm, I knew it is a B.S. hit piece.
That article is completely biased towards one opinion. |
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People REALLY should read the official reports that were issued after exhaustive investigations. They are available on-line and can be doanloaded, and while there are hundreds of pages - they are extremely informative. (Of course, most people prefer to believe rumor and hearsay and what they read on the internet, rather than inform themselves). When looking at all the known facts, it appears to be nothing more than a tragic misunderstanding, combined with incompetence and miscommunications on both sides. RIP to the brave souls that were tragically lost. |
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What I find interesting at this juncture, is that now we have a real Naval fighter pilot here in the discussion. Not a an ace of computer flight simulators, but the real deal. Someone who's job it is to attack ships and ground targets.
He is someone who should be viewed as an expert on the subject, yet we have amatures who are disputing his opinion about what one can or cannot see or distinguish from altitude at sea at high speed. |
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The Israeli torpoedo boats that showed up could EASILY have sunk the Liberty, but stopped and offered assistance as soon as they realized their mistake. The huge flaw in the "it was a deliberate act" conspiracy theory is that the Liberty was NOT sunk. There is zero doubt that the Israelis could have sunk it if they had wanted to, and sinking it and leaving NO survivors would give them an even better opportunity to "cover up" and make up stories about what happend. The fact that the Liberty was NOT sunk is the one huge problem for any conspiracy theory about it being a deliberate attack. |
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Here ya go. http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/ Matt |
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Agreed - the article in questions says that the ground controllers were miffed because the aircraft couldn't sink the ship with 30mm and rockets - no kidding. Matt |
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Those aircraft have no targeting pods or precision strike capability (i.e. Laser or GPS guided munitions). They carry guns, rockets and dumb bombs. They have roughly 1.5-2.0 hour loiter times. They do not aerial refuel. They are bare-bones fighter aircraft. They are not Super-Hornets or Raptors with x-ray vision and the magical panty-viewing FLIR pod. They use the pilot's eyeballs. If those eyeballs didn't see a flag - it might as well have not been there. Once those pilot's eyes saw the flag, the attack ceased. That lends A LOT more credibility to the "mistaken identity" scenerio than the massive zionist conspiracy theory.
Matt |
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The ship was, in fact, hit by napalm. No one disputes this. Whats your prob? |
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The Israeli Nord "Flying Boxcars" that repeatedly overflew the Liberty were at masthead height, and slow. Nice try tho.... |
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Agreement from me with valheru21. The fact that Israeli warplanes attacked a US ship and killed US servicement is indisputable. The Israeli intent is, as mentioned, is up for dispute. Your knee jerk reaction, 1GunnerHogan1, sums up your position on Israel quite nicely. This was truly a regrettable incident in history. There will always be a crowd that will use it to paint Israel in a bad light, decades later. No country is perfect, including the US and Israel, but these our two nations share enough principals that you can include the Izzys in the same club as the UK and Australia, along with precious few others, as allies. Some folks will just never get over the Jewish thing, though, and use any excuse to knock them. |
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Do you have even a CLUE how close to sinking it DID come? Perhaps the fact that the Captain got a Congressional Medal of Honor for keeping it afloat might be a clue..... |
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That was a few hours before the attack. The ship was ID'd as American... then someone forgot about it - as happens in war. Later the shore was taking fire from the sea. They sent fighters to deal with it. The new guy on watch didn't get the passdown that an American ship was in that area. He assumed (as happens in war) that it was an enemy combatant. The fighter pilots couldn't see anything that changed that assessment (flag/number/etc) and so, saw what they thought was correct. It happens at 5000' and 500 knots - it just doesn't happen to you in your nice comfy chair. Matt |
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How about the flag the Liberty was flying, complete with bullet holes? Is THAT enough "credible evidence" for you? |
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Did you know that there's no such thing as the "congressional" medal of honor - it's just the "Medal of Honor." Matt |
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Where is the "Blame Bush" crowd? Is their propaganda machine asleep?
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How big was this flag? Take that same size flag, tie it to a busy intersection and drive 1 mile away. Turn back around and look at the flag. Tell me what you see. Now try this looking over the side of the airplane going 500 knots and worrying about getting shot at the same time. Most of the flags I've seen on ships were through my targeting pod - I normally looked on the stern (ass) of the ship for the country of origin instead of the flag. If the flag is limp or waving too much, it's almost impossible to tell. That's why hull shapes are so important. 400' at 10,000' looks a lot like 200' at 5,000'. The water looks the same no matter your altitude (over about 4,000'), and with no frame of reference, length is only comparable to width and height of the object. The shape, not the size (unless we're talking rowboat and battleship) becomes the identifying feature. I'm not defending their actions - I'm saying they fucked up. I'm also saying it wasn't intentional. For credibility... I've ID'd submerged submarines while flying - it can be done - but it take a LOT of practice... and I wasn't thinking about getting shot at. Matt |
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So the pilots who might well have identified the ship, were not the same pilots who fired on it? How long between the recon aircraft overflights and the fighter attack? |
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It was the same day, but separated by a few hours - long enough for someone to not get the whole pass-down. Matt |
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Not completely, they haven't. In fact, they treat the attackers as heros, and have monuments to them in museums.
What does Israel INSIST be done when they find some 90 year old concentration camp guard in Ohio, or whatever? If time going by doesn't diminish the right of Israel to persue justice against those who've wronged it, Israel can hardly turn around when its own have commited war crimes and DENY their victims justice, based on "...it was long ago..." Yeah, well so was WWII.... |
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So, lets say dayshift is on patrol and they note that there is a family picnic going on at the park. I am on second shift and a couple hours into the shift, I get a report of a raucus drunken brawl at the park and go in expecting trouble. Should I expect to find trouble or a peaceful picnic? After all Some hours earlier there was a picnic. I guess that is what I too should expect to find rather than relying on the current report of the dispatcher. |
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Bingo - if you're even told about the picnic at all. With that, I'm out. I have rooms to paint. Matt |
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Even if i were inclined to grant you that, (and I'm not - we expect OUR troops to be DARN SURE what they expend ordinance on, for just such reasons...) TORPEDO BOATS don't operate at 5000' and 500 knots - they were close enought to machine gun the liferaft (another war crime), which is plenty close to seel the "GTR 5" hull number, the American flag, the 20 foot Moonbounce antenna.... sorry, no points for your side. |
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What a whiner.
There was a war going on. The ship was a secret spy ship. Spy ships don't go chugging around adorned with stuff that clearly shows they are US naval ships. If they did they wouldn't be secret spy ships. Basically S*** Happens in war. To say the Israeli's intentionally tried to sink a US ship is absurd. They are one of our closest allies. It is called friendly fire. I'm sorry this guy can't keep a job but blaming it on the Israeli's for something that happened 40 yrs ago is ridiculous. Get over it. My uncle was maimed by Brittish friendly fire in WWII. He isn't hobbling around bitching about the Brits. I call: |
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Israel didn't set the prices for the retribution, take it up with those who did. Israel admitted to a mistake, not to running Gulags and concentration camps, there is a world of difference. When a person is convicted of and accidental homicide and pays their debt to society, maybe even settles a lawsuit, it's over. You can't retry them or resue them. |
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Do we really? I'm sure a few Canuckians would dispute that point. No, we really don't. We might applogize or punish later, but we expect our pilots to bomb the crap out of whatever they are sent out to bomb. They were sent to bomb a ship that was at a particular location, they found a ship and bombed one. Again, it makes no sense that the Israeli Naval commander would call off his attack for any other reason than a mistaken identity. Dead witnesses don't tell tales, survivors do. If treachery was the order of the day, there would not have been any witnesses left. |
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Last parting shot. If the pilots had been sent to bomb a ship and seen a friendly flag, they would have aborted the strike - I have no doubt about that. To suggest anything else is quite silly. Matt |
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Yes - I have a clue because I've actually READ the reports and testimony from the investigations. I suggest you do the same. (But, exciting imagines of "pissed of F-4's inbound" are much more exciting explanations than the FACT the the Israeli torpedo boats stopped firing as soon as they realized it was a U.S. ship. It had NOTHING to do with any messages sent - which you would know if you had read the reports and understood the communications failtures and tragic fuckups that took place that day) |
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So the British troops killed during GW1, allied helicopters shot down, and Candian troops bombed in Afghanistan - were all killed on purpose by U.S. troops? (Heck, in GW1 I think the British lost more troops to U.S. fire than they did to Iraqi fire. ) These things happen in the "fog of war" Was it a huge and incompetent fuck-up for the Israeli planes to attack? Hell yes, and there should have been criminal charges against the pilots, in my opinion. But there is NO EVIDENCE that it was a deliberate attack, other than conspiracy theory and anger. And the fact remains that the torpedo boats could easily have sunk the Liberty, had they wanted to. I can honestly think of no reason they would not have done so, if the whole thing was a deliberate and orchestrated attack. The fact that the stopped firing as soon as they realized it was a U.S. ship defeats the entire argument, to my mind. Does it excuse gross incompetence and huge fuck-ups earlier in the day? Hell no - but to me, it does indicate that there was no coordinated or deliberate plan to attack the Liberty. |
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Nope, that’s wrong… Countries don’t have independent wills. Individuals do. Sometimes it’s convenient to talk about groups or organizations as real entities. But you’ve always got to remember that the group is just a convenient fiction we use and not a real person. So, someone in a position of authority in Israel wanted the ship sunk… That’s what you are really saying. I think it’s fairly obvious that most of the people of Israel wouldn’t want to attack an American ship. I also think it’s probable that no one with Israel’s best interests at heart would want to attack an American ship either. Where does that leave us? If the attack was actually intentional and not just a tragic mistake, (I honestly don’t know.) then the question is both who and why? The “who” would probably be the controller or his immediate superior. The reason I say that is the obvious resistance the pilots had to shooting at an American ship. Imagine trying to project those orders through several links of the chain of command… People would demand those orders in writing or even refuse to obey. And, if the attack was planned by the highest levels of the Israeli government then they would have handpicked a few pilots for the mission, briefed them ahead of time, and used more effective anti ship weapons on the first pass. (30mm and rockets aren’t likely to sink a ship, at least not quickly.) No, this was a target of opportunity, staged with the force at hand by the controller, not some well planned surgical strike organized at the highest levels. And, why would some ground controller, or his immediate superior, (or even an imposter) order an attack on an American ship? The official answer is that it was a misunderstanding. But some people don’t believe that… If a rogue Israeli officer ordered an attack on an American ship then it’s safe to say that he didn’t have Israel’s best interests in mind when he did so. In fact it seems likely that he wanted to start an incident with America. And that’s something that no one loyal to Israel would want. What nation back then had both the capability of inserting one of their agents into a high position in the Israeli military and the desire to cause tension between America and Israel? There’s one really big and obvious answer… And, what would be the reaction of both American and Israeli officials when they found this out. Making the incident public would be a serious embarrassment for Israel and would drastically increase the tensions between two nuclear superpowers. It could possibly even trigger a nuclear war. So they would have to stage a major cover up. I’m not saying that’s definitely what happened. All I’ve got is one thread of reasoning that I think shows this as a probable cause for the incident. And all anyone else has to show the official account is wrong is a thread of reasoning. I think everyone ought to consider the possibility that the whole thing was really set off by a Soviet agent or two. |
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Considering what Israel did to the Syrian navy during the 6 day war I find it inconceivable that they were somehow incapable of sinking an essentially unarmed freighter if this was a planned out mission to kill the americans.
Two questions. Why was our ship in the middle of a war zone (11 miles may be international waters but you are still in the middle of the fight)? I may have the right to hang out in Harlem at 0200, but when I get my ass kicked, I don't have the right to whine about it? Why would Israel deliberatly bomb a US Spy Ship? Since those who express most umbridge about the attack need no reason because there was reason enough (apparantly they are jews in israel, just a rumor) Was the ship deliberately attacked. Of course it was. Was it a deliberate attack on a US ship designed to murder americans? Well, now why would Israel want to do that? that the crew members are so adament the attack was a known one on a US ship leads me to suspect that they were indeed spying on israel. Lets not think for a minute the US and israel were best buds in 1967. |
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To those who can't accept the mistaken identity answer all I can say is don't hold your breath for another outcome. A terrible tragedy happened and all the conspiracy theories in the world are not going to prove anything else. Even if there is more to this tragedy, it will probably not be known in our lifetime. The closure some are demanding is just plain not going to happen. I'm amazed that anyone would advocate abandoning our alliance with israel over the issue and prefer an alliance with those who blow up 300 marines sleeping and sponsor global terrorism. That is just plain asinine.
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