On your sailboat in intl. waters, with your anti-pirate guns, pull into foreign port, then?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - On your sailboat in intl. waters, with your anti-pirate guns, pull into foreign port, then?

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:00:35 PM EDT

I always wondered what the rule was- Does anyone here know? I know once you pull into another country's waters, you may be boarded by the coast guard or whatever-So can they bust you for having your stainless slug gun and AR15 ? The horror! There is is no way I'd ever go into open ocean without some serious firepower on board.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:10:26 PM EDT

[#1]

link thing

Yacht on the high seas carrying firearms

The basic principle under customary international law is that only the Flag State is entitled to exercise jurisdiction over a ship/yacht on the high seas. Therefore there is no legal prohibition on having firearms onboard on the high seas.

Article 92 Status of ships
1. Ships shall sail under the flag of one State only and, save in exceptional cases expressly provided for in international treaties or in this Convention, shall be subject to its exclusive jurisdiction on the high seas. A ship may not change its flag during a voyage or while in a port of call, save in the case of a real transfer of ownership or change of registry.

Yacht carrying firearms in the territorial waters of another state

The position is more complex. Whilst the yacht itself is considered to be the Flag State territory, the yacht by entering the territory of another state is subject to that states jurisdiction and laws.

Accordingly it is important to investigate the law and customs procedures in respect of all ports visited to ensure that the requisite permissions are obtained.

From experience of the above, most countries do not prohibit the entry of ships carrying firearms into their jurisdiction providing they declare them on arrival and they are suitably secured onboard and sealed during the time in port.

For example at Port Said following is required:
A list of firearms, with their type and details, must be handed to the authorities on arrival.

Indeed in the UK, whilst most firearms are prohibited the customs authorities normally adopt pragmatic arrangements in respect of prohibited firearms and require the ship to secure them by customs seal during the visit or arrange for them to be removed for safe storage until departure.

The best stance to take is to have shotguns onboard. These are not prohibited in the majority of countries providing you declare them to customs and they are secured in a suitable gun cabinet.

There are obviously some difficult administrative issues to contend with initially, but by and large having shotguns onboard a yacht does not present insurmountable problems.

google is ya friend..

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:14:17 PM EDT

[#2]

Why thank you!
Although I must confess, I'd want at least a shotgun, AR, and decent sidearm on board.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:21:21 PM EDT

[#3]

.50. You'd have to have a .50. We're talking pirates. You need anti-boat weaponry, not just anti-personnel... I want to be disabling (or sinking) that bastard before they climb onboard to where I could start plinking with a Glock.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:21:50 PM EDT

[#4]

Going to need at least a .308, you can see things coming a long way off out at sea.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:25:06 PM EDT

[#5]

You'd need at least 4 guns:

Scoped M-1A for long shots;

M-4 or similar configuration for closer work;

Pump-action shotgun to repel boarders;

And a semi-auto pistol if all else fails.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:25:42 PM EDT

[#6]

Totally agree. When 40 Filipino's with AK's roll up beside you in the fog we need an M203, SAW, or a .50

Hey, what about a nice stainless Marlin Guide Gun in .45-.70
That could ruin some fiberglass with the added benefit of not seeming too overtly "military" to foreign officials.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:29:43 PM EDT

[#7]

Shotguns also result in a smaller financial loss if they ARE confiscated. Plus, they have a metric fuckload of ammunition options available.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:29:59 PM EDT

[#8]

The easy answer is have a small boat aboard your ship for traverling to and from mainland and just stay in international waters. Assuming off course you have someone trustworthy to stay aboard!

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:30:26 PM EDT

[#9]

How does one go about aiming shots from a boat on the ocean in rough water?

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:33:22 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
How does one go about aiming shots from a boat on the ocean in rough water?

Full auto?

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:35:03 PM EDT

[#11]

a Ma Duece should solve all of your problems, with some good AP and incendiary rounds mixed in.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:38:20 PM EDT

[#12]

I was an M60 gunner on the USS SPRUANCE DD93 in the mid 80'S and participated in operation "Earnest Will" - which was escort duty for merchant ships (which were being attacked by the Iranians in the Straits of Hormuz. We (gunners) were heavily recruited by the Merchant Marine to man .50 cal mounts on merchant ships. Had I been single at the time, it would have been a VERY lucrative enterprise. But back to the question at hand - modern day pirates are heavily armed. .50 is as small as you wanna go!

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:42:01 PM EDT

[#13]

If you converted your AK to FA in the middle of the ocean...

Would anybody care?

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:43:42 PM EDT

[#14]

I've read somewhere that the coast guard was looking at the .50beo for small boat interdiction . it had all the punch they needed to take out an outboard engine and bust holes in the hull.

I'd probly want something such as that for semi close work , and MP5 (or P90) for too close work a M14 or FAL for longer out (or a barret) and some good handgun for when it all goes to hell.

Posted: 8/12/2007 8:48:49 PM EDT

[#15]

Just build yourself a q-ship, get a 5"/54 gun and hide it in the fo'castle...

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:02:58 PM EDT

[#16]

Muzzle-loaded black powder cannon on the foredeck.

Three 16 pounders on each of the port and starboard sides.

Cap'n Jack Sparrow at the helm...

...and a Vulcan cannon on the rear deck. Heck with all that black powder stuff, give me the Vulcan.

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:04:51 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
If you converted your AK to FA in the middle of the ocean...

Would anybody care?

Good question!

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:15:12 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
If you converted your AK to FA in the middle of the ocean...

Would anybody care?

...says the ATF intern.

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:20:43 PM EDT

[#19]

Somebody around here had a breakdown off the coast of Mexico. In order to enter Mexican waters, where firearms of military caliber are illegal, the M1 and the 1911 had to go over the side.

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:22:51 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
a Ma Duece should solve all of your problems, with some good AP and incendiary rounds mixed in.

Ma Deuce will solve all of your problems. And if she falls in battle, there's always the MK-19 or M-134.

International waters and all...

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:24:14 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Somebody around here had a breakdown off the coast of Mexico. In order to enter Mexican waters, where firearms of military caliber are illegal, the M1 and the 1911 had to go over the side.

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:26:29 PM EDT

[#22]

How difficult is it to understand that when one goes to another country, one must obey the other country's laws?

I would not go to, say England, and expect them to let me defend myself with a firearm simply because I am an American, and have Second Amendmant Rights as such IN AMERICA.

(the above is an example only, and not meant or intended to piss anybody off, so gimme a break)

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:35:42 PM EDT

[#23]

Or how about you just sail with the US Navy?

I don't think any foreign port has ever asked them to check their guns at the door.....

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:36:55 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I was an M60 gunner on the USS SPRUANCE DD93 in the mid 80'S and participated in operation "Earnest Will" - which was escort duty for merchant ships (which were being attacked by the Iranians in the Straits of Hormuz. We (gunners) were heavily recruited by the Merchant Marine to man .50 cal mounts on merchant ships. Had I been single at the time, it would have been a VERY lucrative enterprise. But back to the question at hand - modern day pirates are heavily armed. .50 is as small as you wanna go!

pirates have 20 mm anti aircraft guns and RPG's , fuck that shit, you can keep your pirate hunting to yourself!

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:38:36 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Or how about you just sail with the US Navy?

I don't think any foreign port has ever asked them to check their guns at the door.....

Erm

might ask japan about that.

And I am talkin post WW2.

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:38:47 PM EDT

[#26]

I sat in the radio room glued there for several hours listening to a commercial fisherman who was fighting off an attempted boarding. I could hear shots being fired as he talked to the Coast Guard. The CG had a chopper there in about 20 minutes and followed the other boat until it could be stopped and boarded. No guns found, but the next day's TV news reported that a few empty cases were found rolling around on the deck. Apparently they had dumped their rifles.

The guy was fighting them off with a shotgun. I'll bet he wished he had a lot more. Apparently, from what I could figure, he anchored and was sleeping. He felt or heard a boat bump up against his, grabbed his shotgun, and chased the boarders off his boat back onto theirs. The others had made several passes alongside shooting, which I could hear as he talked on the radio to the Coast Guard. It was full auto fire, not semi.

The guy was tough, but you could hear the fear in his voice. You'd hear silence for a few minutes, when he put the mic down to fire back, then after they had gotten out of range, he'd go back to the radio.

Arrests were made, but after seeing the bad guys come off their boat in handcuffs on the news I heard no more about the case. The bad guys were formerly from a southeast Asian country that no longer exists.

Posted: 8/12/2007 9:53:40 PM EDT

[#27]

I would take whatever gun I had but I would want a much bigger one than any I used to own (before the boating accident).

Posted: 8/13/2007 4:25:59 AM EDT

[#28]

I lived in the Bahamas in the mid '80s on my sailboat. Technically a "registered" vessel; a US Yacht. Had on board a Walther PP .22, SW66 snub, a 1911, a SPAS-12, and an Auto-5. Declared upon entry along with an exact round count for every caliber.
<--------------<<<Slept on deck, armed, with his predesessor a few times. No real problems. Keep it on the boat and keep it locked up ... unless you really need it.
That was then and that was the Bahamas. Different ballgame now. Best to write for rulings/laws from each embassy where you plan to visit and save the replies. My 2c.

Stay safe

Posted: 8/13/2007 4:43:18 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Muzzle-loaded black powder cannon on the foredeck.

Three 16 pounders on each of the port and starboard sides.

Cap'n Jack Sparrow at the helm...

...and a Vulcan cannon on the rear deck. Heck with all that black powder stuff, give me the Vulcan.

Google "carronade", and you might rethink your position on shipboard muzzle-loading cannon. Devastating.

Posted: 8/13/2007 4:58:07 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
You'd need at least 4 guns:

Scoped M-1A for long shots;

M-4 or similar configuration for closer work;

Pump-action shotgun to repel boarders;

And a semi-auto pistol if all else fails.

Ding ding ding.

Posted: 8/13/2007 5:02:01 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
How difficult is it to understand that when one goes to another country, one must obey the other country's laws?

I would not go to, say England, and expect them to let me defend myself with a firearm simply because I am an American, and have Second Amendmant Rights as such IN AMERICA.

(the above is an example only, and not meant or intended to piss anybody off, so gimme a break)

I certainly expect to obey the sovereign laws of any nation as a condition of being allowed to visit. Unfortunately, there is that threshold from were you can legally (and prudently I would add) carry weapons on the high seas to when you make port and need to to respect (if not agree with) the laws of the host country. It would be nice if standardized or at least well publicized procedures for making port with regards to weapons were available. Personally, I would not go to sea on any vessel that wasn't minimally armed (at least the Captain) and would not start island hopping through the Caribbean without being WELL armed.

Sad to think that in order to remain "legal" you may have to toss your weapons into the deep blue just when you might need them most!

Posted: 8/13/2007 5:05:01 AM EDT

[#32]

So. How any of you guys own a boat or have even SEEN saltwater?

Posted: 8/13/2007 5:28:47 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
a metric fuckload of ammunition options available.

Can I quote you on that?

Posted: 8/13/2007 6:21:26 AM EDT

[#34]

If you are really concerned about the legaility then just carry a Mossberg Mariner variant of their 500 and add the line thrower rig. "No shotgun here, that's my line throwing rig".

Posted: 8/13/2007 7:31:36 AM EDT

[#35]

You guys thinking you can sink a boat by gunfire had better do a little research. Most manufacturers of offshore boats use fiberglass over foam core construction. One of the more popular brands even shows their boat still floating after being cut in half by a chainsaw. Add to the fact that small holes in fiberglass tend to close themselves up. My boat is fairly typical, it draws 28" at the stern and a LOT less towards the bow. Let's see you hit that on a moving target with a moving shooting platform. They also have these things called "bilge pumps". I don't think you are going to put enough holes in something to overwhelm two with 1200 gallons per hour capacity.

Personnel is your only viable target. Distances are going to be 50 yards or less. Any further and the local authorities are going to consider YOU the bad guy. As for other countries, I fish Mexican territorial waters a lot. The locals have always been really friendly but the 870 would go over the side in a heartbeat if I was approached by a fisheries patrol boat.

The best defense is really having the fastest boat.

Posted: 8/13/2007 7:34:12 AM EDT

[#36]

You'll never convince me that .50 BMG API's against a motorized craft is a bad or pointless thing.

Posted: 8/13/2007 7:50:34 AM EDT

[#37]

I think if I had only one firearm, it'd be a semi-auto .308 such as an M1A or FAL.

A bipod and scope would do well, too.

Posted: 8/13/2007 7:53:04 AM EDT

[#38]

Take it for what it's worth...

My friend owned a 31' trimaran and liked to sail around the Gulf of Mexico, both solo and with other members of a club comprised of trimaran owners.

The word among them was that if the Coasties did a "Safety Check" on your boat, guns were generally okay, but they would seize any .50 BMGs they came across.

All I know is that I would want to be in a boat that's being shot at even less than a car that's being shot at!

John

Posted: 8/13/2007 7:55:01 AM EDT

[#39]

The US Coast Guard can board your boat for a safety check even if you are in international waters?

Posted: 8/13/2007 8:05:24 AM EDT

[#40]

Why not tie a fishing line to the gun and chuck it if you get boarded?

Posted: 8/13/2007 8:46:29 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
If you converted your AK to FA in the middle of the ocean...

Would anybody care?

I think you're still bound by the laws of the country under which your vessel is flagged, so FOPA '86 applies. That's bad if you get caught. Of course, you can see vessels a long way off on a nice calm day, something that has traditionally been used for advantage doing illegal activites at sea.

That said, I'd wager there are a few people out there that have LL or DIAS-shaped fishing weights that might accidentally find their way into an AR once underway. I would suspect anyone who went to the trouble to break that law could also bumpfire convincingly enough to explain away the high cyclic rate of shooting if asked to demonstrate.

I'm just saying it's possible, not advocating this highly illegal activity (no matter how moronic the law is).

Posted: 8/13/2007 9:54:37 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
The US Coast Guard can board your boat for a safety check even if you are in international waters?

Yes, if you are a US flagged vessel, you are under their jurisdiction anywhere you may go.

If you are not, it only takes executive clearance, which is not hard to obtain.

Posted: 8/13/2007 1:15:20 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I think if I had only one firearm, it'd be a semi-auto .308 such as an M1A or FAL.

A bipod and scope would do well, too.

Scope no more than 7x-8x effective magnification, and even with that it'd be really hard to hold a target.

Binoculars sold for boating purposes are almost never more than 7x or 8x unless gyro stabilized. Even there, they max out at 14x-16x

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - On your sailboat in intl. waters, with your anti-pirate guns, pull into foreign port, then?

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