To those of you who think the AK is so superior to our beloved black rifles, I wonder, just how many other superior Russian-Designed products do you own?

Got any of those cool 2 stroke diesel cars? How about a nice 10 pound transistor radio? Maybe an ultra-reliable russian timepiece?

Come on, if you think the Russkies designed the ultimate infantry weapon with the AK, then you surely must own many, many other fine Russian products.

Or maybe you just stick to the Vodka, and that's why you think the AK is so fabulous (hic).

But the AK is so RELIABLE you say. Plus it's...well, so RELIABLE. And don't forget the legendary, the legendary..ummm... RELIABILITY!

(I gotta stop this, I could go on all night.)(Sorry).

Anyway, (back to a civil tone), I was just wondering what other Russian consumer goods you owned, since you're obviously much more discerning than I am about Russian Quality. (reliability!)


AR's Rule.

I have to say I own and love my Black Gun, but also have an AK and had it long before the black gun. I used to shoot hundreds of rounds through it without cleaning and have never had a jam. I have however had improper feeding with the AR due to the bolt carrier getting caked up. The AK is a good gun. Put the two in a side by side test and the may be able to shoot better with all the Mods. out there. But give  a plain jane AR with the AK and shoot the hell out of both of them and I bet the AR will have problems first. But the AR with Main. will last longer I believe. I love both my AR and my AK. Just had to put in my two cents worth.

I have to say I own and love my Black Gun, but also have an AK and had it long before the black gun. I used to shoot hundreds of rounds through it without cleaning and have never had a jam. I have however had improper feeding with the AR due to the bolt carrier getting caked up. The AK is a good gun. Put the two in a side by side test and the may be able to shoot better with all the Mods. out there. But give  a plain jane AR with the AK and shoot the hell out of both of them and I bet the AR will have problems first. But the AR with Main. will last longer I believe. I love both my AR and my AK. Just had to put in my two cents worth. And no I dont own any other russian products, well besides a crank radio-flashlight. But in general they dont make anything else good except for the Vodka... But I dont drink anymore, so that is a pleasure I will have to do without.

It just go to show once in a while even those drunk russian can get lucky once in while.  I think there are very few good tings produced in russia...but AK...Lasers, and a few other high tech goodies seem to work well over there...I love both my AR and my AK.

The SKS, T-34, and SS-20 ICBM were all groundbreaking and well ahead of the rest of the world.
I do find it funny to see all these true blue American boys, who won't drive "Jap Crap", shoot Com Bloc ammo & weapons.

Why do people ever let their bolt and carrier get caked up?  Are you using it in combat? If not, you have time to clean it.  Just look at it, does it look like there is tolerance for excessive build up?  Don't change the ATF in your automatic trans, or the engine oil in your motor and tell us know how that works out.  Sorry for the tone, but I've read this too many times.

I don't have any russian Ak's.  In fact there were a very few russian ak's ever imported.  The ones that are authentic would cost you more than 10k.

I don't know why this debate rages on and on.  With an AK-74 you could engage targets at 400m efectively.  Does it shoot MOA?  No but neither does your out of the box Colt AR-15.

I just bought my first AR.  It's a Colt MT6731.  I hope it ain't a jam-o-matic.  I pick it up Sat. I have bought several NIW USGI 30's and I'm picking up some SA PMP tomorrow.  Guess I'll know soon enough.

I own 3 ak-47 and 2 ak-74 and they all shoot whatever ammo and mag I stick in them.  If I had a beef with an AR it would be how picky it is about the mags you can use(at least from what I'm reading here).  

more apparent insecurity of the ak vs ar crap!!

what is an ak freak?
what is the difference between and ak freak and an ar freak?

there other things that come from russia that are good.

1. vodka
2. the draganov
3. su-27 flogger jet fighter
4. big-bobbed blonde chicks (yes i have seen the top of the mountain and it is good)
5. ayn rand (though im a libertarian, i dont worship her or anything. our founding fathers were way ahead of her)
6. the makarov. a good pistol for the time it originally came out
7. cz-75 . not from russia, but from comm-bloc
8. tchckasky the music composer...sorry i forgot how to spell is last name. if you know of him and like classical music then chances are you like him


this is all i can think of for right now.

why do you take to heart what other people think of our beloved ar-15's. in my opinion the best auto-rifle hasn't been invented yet.

these are to versus battle i dislike

ak-47 vs m16
glock vs sig
m1 garand vs m16
fn fal vs m-14
g3 vs fn fal
beretta vs m1911
m1911 vs sig

truth is all of these weapons have contributed to firearm design. they all deserve a place in a firearm enthusiats experience. the best rifle or pistol will be the one that can successfully combine all of these feature and capablilities. i await the day that it happens as i like firearms and their designs...period.

the ar-15 is not the "superior rifle"
the HK could benefit from better ergonomics
the ak could benefit from a higher quality manufacturer. imagine if winchester or marlin produced this rifle
the m1911 should come out of the box already to go with a reliability package
the sig could use the ergonomics of the m1911 or hi-power
the glock could use the accuraccy of the sig
the fn fal could use a better rear sight
the m1 garand could use some weight reduction
the g3 could use a better rear stock
the berretta would be cooler if it was as slim as a hi-power or cz-75. and as accurate too [:)]

a "superior" firearm is out there waiting to be invented. i would admire the weapon designer who could incorporate the best of all of these firearms.

Other Russian stuff I own Besides an AK:
SKS
Sibir 20-50X50 Spotting Scope.
NVGs
1st gen. NV Riflescope.
Vodka, misc. varieties.

Hmm... Now that I think about it, my AK and my SKS were made in China. and the riflescope only works sometimes.

My Vodka works every time, though.[:)]

Hehe  Yes it has we just can't get our hands on it.  [url]http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm[/url]

I think the AR is perfection, for me personally.  It isn't a 7.62Nato chambering but then that's why I went and got an AR10 as well.

Ergonomics of the AR15 are superb in my mind.  I just got into a huge debate about this with a bunch of sniveling "gaming geeks" of all people in the world.

For me personally I'm more accurate and much much quicker with the AR series of rifles than with any other rifle out there.

I also like the fact that I can go nuts with all the different versions and options of AR15s out there.  My god!  I hope the Ares belt fed upper comes out!  We've got about 8 rifle caliber chamberings for this bad boy and about 6 pistol chamberings?  Then there's the big brother AR10, my god life is good!


And what's more mine are just dead pan reliable.  I feel sorry for the guys who get nailed from time to time with a lemon, a 1/2 assed kit gun, or worse yet an ASA pile of junk with no customer support.   But I really think that when an AR is built correctly it's going to work reliably enough to stake your life on it.

If I ever need to fire enough rounds to jam up an AR design due to it being too dirty, I'm in really deep crap and have probably fired atleast 1.5k rounds.  At that point whether I have an AR15 or an AK design isn't going to make a lick of difference because by that time it's all going to be close in work anyhow and I'm going to be in out numbered to say the least.

God forbid the ground squirrels ever manage to unite and come at me in massive co-ordinated attack waves.   As the Klingons say, "Today is a good day to die!"

AK47/SKS variants are the Marijuana of the gun culture.

They are the cheapest, easiest to own and use, and often lead the owner into owning more sophisticated rifles.  

They are gateway guns.

I have owned two SKS, currently own two AK types, and two AR15 types, aquired in that order as finances and experience permitted.

The SKS/AK is a good first auto rifle cause man, there's just no way to fuck it up.

The AR vs AK debate is NOT a Chevy vs Ford rivalry. It's more like a YUGO vs Ford comparison.

I wouldn't make the case that the AR is fundamentally far better than an HK91/93 or an M14, but if you're holding an AR up against the AK it's NO CONTEST.

Most interesting comment I've read aobve was "imagine if Winchester had made the AK". That does make you think. It would still have the non-drop free mag, no bolt hold open on last round, two handed mag change, short sight radius, poor selector design etc etc etc. BUT, that would handle most of the quality issues, and maybe many of the accuracy ones as well.

I agree that the AK is an entry level SUV. I guess that anyone who really thinks their AK will beat an AR on features or quality is just too inexperienced to know better.

I bought a CHINESE AK with the full intention of showing the Chinese how to use it WHEN THEY INVADE THE UNITED STATES.

I own AK's and ARs, I think they are both great weapons.  I know for a fact that a good manufactored AR (bushmaster) with USGI mags and brass cased ammo can shoot atleast 2500-3000 rounds without any malfunctions (personal experience), maybe even alot more.  Now if you use non USGI mags or steel ammo you are playing with fire.  The reason the AK can use any mag is because the conutrys that mags "factory" mags generally made quality stuff at low prices.  Had USA made mags for the AK like the SKS, people would be saying "if you use the right mags" about the AK.  I like My AR the most simply because it is reliable enough, and I can shoot 2" group with PMP ammo at 100 yards offhand.  

The Azalin

I used to have an SKS and a norinco AK, neither truly russian though, the ak may have been more reliable yes but the SKSs would shoot straighter (if you consider SKS fire shooting straight!) but they were both butt-ass ugly and got sold in favor of BUSHMASTERS (I woulda felt more patriotic if I burned that Ivan-crap)...as far as other russkie products...well I've got 2 sibir spotting scopes at around a bill apiece that rival some of the 400 and $500 american and japanese ones...damn thats about it beside when I was in high school we had a lot of russian foreign exchange students everyone of them had like a damn 150 IQ and the girls were all COMPLETE HOTTIES, must be propaganda I know everyone over there ain't like that, they send us their best to scare us, kinda like that old medium size 11" russkie condom thing

AK's Rule! [pyro]
Good Night Now!
[uzi]

The battle will continue I do not own an ak but have shot a full auto one what a blast.I think the ak wins the reliability part and the ar wins the accuracy and looks.Both have their part in history.

I own both an AK and an AR. Whenever somebody asks me, which one I prefer?/ which one they should buy if they can only get one for the time being?/ what is the difference?, I tell them that it depends upon the situation.
The analogy I use is this, the AR is like a Ferrari, a fine crafted piece of machinery.  Its fast, sexy, and a bitch to maintain, but if you treat it right there is no better subsitute out there in regards to pure performance.
The AK is like a Jeep, if I had to traverse a barren stretch of dessert and my life depended upon it, I will take a Jeep over a Ferrari anyday. It ain't pretty but it will get you there alive more often than the Ferrari will.
If the person still doesn't get it, I tell them I always take my AR to the range, but there is only one loaded magazine in my entire home for self defense, and it fits my AK.

In a sense, I think its sort of comparing apples to oranges, but basicly I'm with AR15Robert on this.  I own M16's and an AK and while I love the M16's, there are areas where I think the AK is just superior.  First, just consider the tolerances of the two weapons.  Everything in the AR/M16 is finely machined and fitted - there's not a lot of room in there so it has to stay clean.  Its a precision instrument.  If you're operating in a harsh enviornment where dirt, mud, sand, etc. can get in the action you better be damned sure to keep it clean.  Get a little mud or sand in an AR/M16 and it'll become nothing more than a very fancy club.  The AK on the other hand is much looser fitting between the parts and can tolerate a harsh enviornment better.  Get some mud or sand in an AK and it'll keep going long after the AR shuts down.  The other area is the gas system on the AR/M16. The gas tube is the weakest part of the AR/M16 system.  Shooting full auto or even quickly in semi, you can easily melt the gas tube and render the weapon useless.  I've done it, and seen it happen to friends.  In FA, you won't get more than 2 betas down without frying the gas tube and/or melting the handguards.  The AK on the other hand will shoot until the wood handguards catch fire and the barrel almost glows... probably longer if you have an asbestos mit.

this whole AR vs AK is soooo stupid, its a dead issue
i dont think one is better than the other, both have strengths and weaknesses, i own both and enjoy shooting both
in a forest/jungle combat zone i would probably take the AK, but in a urban combat zone id take the AR
different tools for different purposes

it seems to me that the whole reason this stupid thread was started was to show that russians dont produce quality products except for the AK, and in some opinions even that is not worth a darn
in fact i DO own or have used some russian products that i enjoy are feel are historically and militarily interesting, and just FUN
--russian SKS (ill never part with and wish i had more)
--russian Saiga AK rifle (closest thing to a real russian AK you will get, and they come in 308)
--russian Saiga 12ga SHOTGUN (the AR is not the only versatile weapon system around, the russian military makes smaller AKs in 9mm and many other calibers, there just not seen in this country)
--romanian AK (wish i had more)
--east german makarov (wish i had more, id take it over a walther)
--russian CCCP wristwatch (works great, plan to get more)
--russian urshanka hat
--russian PSO1 scope (illuminated post reticle, mounts on the side of the gun, returns to zero after removal)
--russian navy belt and makarov holster
--german mag pouchs
--chinese AK chest pouch
--and id like to get a russian tokerov pistol (browning design) and a nagant revolver (just for sh*ts and grins, and the cylinder moves forward to create a gas seal against the barrel -- neat eh?)

i used to think the chinese guns were junk, but i got my head out of my @ss and realized they were pretty good.
i think people who think poorly about communist designed guns and other stuff need to take a closer look before passing a negative judgement. it may not be the greatest, but its not the worst either, and you need to take into consideration that these are communist countries and there thinking

when it comes to the AK there are strengths (i beleive) in the design, and not just the reliablity of the action. the mag change may be slow but it forces a soldier to positively lock the mag in place, and not slap it in and hope it locks and/or have it fall out. you sure wont have mag reliablity problems like you do with AR mags, gunk and dirt could prevent the AR from dropping free. the safety lever is large enough that you could tell if the gun is on safe or not from a distance.
when it comes down to it you dont need 1 MOA in a combat situation, and will probably never shoot 1 MOA if you were in a fighting role, so whats the purpose of the extra accuracy?
also people dont give credit where credit is due, for the past 25 years the AK74 has been shooting a round similar to the 223, and a few AKs are chambered in 223. the ARs accuracy probably comes more so from the round chambered, the 223 is just inherently more accurate than the 762x39

but then in a combat zone if you can hit a man size target at up to 300 yards what else do you need? RELIABLITY, you wont have a nice benchrest and all the time in the world to make nice clean groups
im not dumping on the AR, i own 2 and will never part with them, and havent had a lick of problems except for bad mags, but people are too closed minded to give the AK a chance, or to see what it is and isnt

different tools for different problems

Well although I am poor right now, I really would like to get some Russian stuffs.  For example:

Here is Alesya and she 21 and is from Gomel, Belarus. She enjoys meeting friends and walking her dog.
[IMG]64.225.126.184/photo/s/so9236.jpg[/IMG]

And lovely Oksana also 21 and from Saratov, Russia. She likes writing poetry, traveling and socializing with people.
[IMG]64.225.126.184/photo/u/un4373.jpg[/IMG]

What are my chances of getting one of them in a mcgift exchange?

Hey Imbrog|io- Who's this??
[img]64.225.126.184/photo/s/sa0616.jpg[/img]

Hopefully she has a great personality!

Let me begin by saying I refuse to get in the AK vs. AR debate.

now, for a better topic, women:

ImbrogIio: I know I can't take you seriously, but come over here to this side of the world and you can meet them live and in the flesh.

You gotta love how a struggling economy and wide-open borders can make women of an absolutely unattainable caliber (had they been born American) suddenly finding you to be quite the catch. Only two reasons: 1) American, 2) Steady paycheck. We got american soldiers here in Korea marrying russian girls every day - I don't think I'd go that far but I can definitely test the waters.

I think I am starting to cry tears of hedonistic joy. Yes, the top of the mountain IS good. [:)]

Oh and liberterian - regarding an "all around rifle" - ever shot one of those foldind stock Daewoos? Nevr had the chance to really test it, but it is the closest I've seen in design to meet such a lofty goal.


Adam

PS: Treetop: The only Russian Vodka I remember from the US was Stolichnaya, are they importing others now - I've been gone awhile.

Yes, there are others, but Stoli is one of my favorites.

It's all relative. Three Russian contractors I worked with said no self-respecting Russian would drink Stoli. They drink Smirnoff. Of course, the stuff they export isn't what the average Bolshivic drinks.

Imbrog|io, stay away from those Ruskie hotties. Once they have the green card in hand, Ivan from back home moves in and you're out the door. However, it might be a fun couple of years until she leaves you.

For more Russian hotties, see [url]www.loveme.com[/url]

Mines a real Russian. I hate to say it, but its the best damn shotgun I ever bought. Its a SAIGA 410 built on the AK platform. Made by Kalashnikov. This gun ROCKS!

[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1511659&a=11419276&p=40450449&Sequence=0&res=high[/img]