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Posted: 9/24/2001 5:49:46 PM EDT
[#1]
Maybe you should change hoods.
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Posted: 9/24/2001 5:53:26 PM EDT
[#2]
FFL holders have overhead, mouths to feed and a myriad of other monetary motivations.
In short, they're in business to make money. So the sale and distribution of fine small arms is subject to the same market forces that drive business at large - namely the law of supply and demand. If my FFL didn't raise prices on pre-bans after September of '94 I'd think that he was being a poor business man. In the same way, now's the time to make money on firearms that are in demand. Sorry for being an a$$, but I've been personal friends with many dealers over the years and they've infected me with their pet peeves. [bounce] |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:03:07 PM EDT
[#3]
I have built up a good relationship with a few of my local FFL holders. If a rifle is in stock they give me a fair price, if I need to order it, they charge my 10% over cost. If I need to have them do a transfer, it is a flat $25 fee. I buy most of my ammo from them, instead of running down to Walmart and saving a few bucks. They are my first stop for reloading / cleaning supplies, before I order online. In other words, if they have it, I buy it from them.
If I need to order something, I do not lay the SGN on their counter during a busy Saturday morning, letting all his customers see the wholesale prices. OSA |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:05:40 PM EDT
[#4]
WOW! Look at you two ^^^^^ no bashing - impressive.
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:06:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Amen brother OSA... Amen [:K]
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:13:36 PM EDT
[#6]
I just purchased a Glock and bought it at my local gun shop. I knew that I was going to pay more than I could find online. I want to support my local shop, they are good people and help out the un-initiated.
If they are totally out of line on a price, I will try to work it down, if I can't, then it's time to look on the internet. BTW, I do believe $425 is a little steep for a SAR-1 |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:16:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Schnert,
Supply and Demand? No, Price Gouging. Lets say you live in Florida and there is a Hurricane comming. You go to Home Depot and they are selling lumber sheets at 40 dollars each. Normally priced around 10. (Made up prices) That is price gouging and not supply and demand. But you are saying it is ok because HD is a business and should make $. Horseshit. Same with guns today. They had SAR-1's, 2's etc in stock selling for lets say 250.00 each. Now since a lot of people want them the price is 425.00. That is price gouging. Definition. Price Gouging is Illegal Price-gouging refers to the practice of charging excessively high prices for goods or services to take advantage of individuals affected by a disaster. |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:29:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Price gouging can only be done by government. The rest of the world operates under voluntary trade. If you don't want to pay the price, you don't have to pay the price.
Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University [url]http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams100699.asp[/url] Tactics broadly condemned as exploitative also serve a valuable social function. Let's look at price-gouging complaints when Hurricane Floyd took aim at the East Coast. After Florida and Georgia governors callously ordered evacuation of millions of citizens, there were complaints of gasoline-station dealers raising the price of gasoline. Though the gasoline dealers were motivated by profits, their actions served the public interest. "OK, Williams," you say, "explain that one." Say gas prices before the hurricane threat was $1.10 a gallon. You're running low or have a half-tank and just want to fill up. If the price stayed at $1.10, you'd fill up. But what if the price rose to $1.75? A lot of people would probably say, "I'm only going 100 miles inland, so I'll make do with the half tank." Or, if you're riding on empty, at $1.75 a gallon you just might decide to buy just a half tank and fill up when you get to your destination 100 miles inland. Here's the question: In the wake of a mass evacuation, which is the preferable state of affairs -- people's gas tanks filled half full enabling everyone to get away from the hurricane, or many people with full gas tanks, and gasoline stations out of gas, and people stranded with empty fuel tanks? Another way to put this question is which would you prefer, particularly if you're driving on empty: gasoline being available at $1.75 a gallon or unavailable at the "fair" price of $1.10 a gallon? Again, gasoline dealers didn't intend to promote the public interest but by pursuing their own they did. A dealer at a gunshow I attended about a month ago had a sar-1 for $400. I didn't complain of price gouging, I just didn't buy it. They lost a sale, and the potential for sales in the future. Both of us exercised free will, as it should be. |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:31:26 PM EDT
[#9]
I'm not an FFL and I don't personally know the one your dealing with. But I am going to stand up for FFL holders bacause I am very good friends with a local FFL. I contantly look through the sale flyers he gets. The price of the SAR's has been fluctuating quite a bit lately. He ordered one to put on the shelf and they were $329 dealer cost, one week later they were $279, and the next they were $299. And their prices are based on that. Now I do know that there are also some real d#ck heads out there and your guy might very well be one. But I just wanted to state that the prices have been unstable.
Matt |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:32:13 PM EDT
[#10]
7,
Okay man... sell me your pre-ban for what you paid for it. Don't gouge me dude... that's a crime! [finger] |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:40:47 PM EDT
[#11]
SAR's, $279 at [url]www.burnsbro.com[/url], $289 at [url]aimsurplus.com/acatalog/index.html[/url].
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:41:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Schnert, hostile aren't you? Please don't finger yourself in public places. [;)]
So it isn't really price gouging unless it is called a disaster by the Govt? I'd say the tragity in NY and DC is a disaster. Fine, They can charge anything they want but they won't see most logical people buy from their shop now or in the future. Just like the gas service stations on 9-11. |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:45:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Schnert, Supply and Demand? No, Price Gouging. Lets say you live in Florida and there is a Hurricane comming. You go to Home Depot and they are selling lumber sheets at 40 dollars each. Normally priced around 10. (Made up prices) That is price gouging and not supply and demand. But you are saying it is ok because HD is a business and should make $. Horseshit. Same with guns today. They had SAR-1's, 2's etc in stock selling for lets say 250.00 each. Now since a lot of people want them the price is 425.00. That is price gouging. Definition. Price Gouging is Illegal Price-gouging refers to the practice of charging excessively high prices for goods or services to take advantage of individuals affected by a disaster. This is not a disaster resulting you you needing an SAR. You WANT an SAR, apparently many others do to. That is increased DEMAND (NOT *NEED*). Therefore, this is NOT price gouging, but price increases to reflect a rise in demand. Your example with Home Depot is accurate, but the SAR example is incorrect. Louis |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:46:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I went to a local gunshop here, and wanted to check out the prices of SAR-1's and SAR-2's. I looked, and within LESS THAN 1 WEEK, the prices of SAR-1's here JUMPED TO $425!!! THAT'S JUST NUTS! I'm DEFINITELY not going to pay that much for a cheap AK clone, where are other websites that sell them for REALLY CHEAP, but decent quality. I know they're usually Hit or Miss, but just wondering for future reference. I decided to go with a Stripped OlyArms Receiver. I was just pissed that local shops are hiking prices. Yes, there is demand, but is that so much of a reason to hike? Within the past week, the shop sold several SAR's, an SKS, and some pump shotties were missing (IE Sold), but hey, what about regular customers like me? I wish there was some sort of special considerations for frequent buyers... *** RANT MODE OFF *** -inuhbad PS. Sorry, I didn't mean ALL FFL holders were being jerks, just most of them near me in Minnesota... [:(] Here's the deal, they are GONE. And no more can be imported. Tried tracking a SAR-2 for a buddy, S.O.G. GUNS WHOLESALE, etc. were all out. Found a few places with them at much higher prices. Another problem is distributors advertising rifles they NO LONGER HAVE or DON'T HAVE YET(and may never get.) The price I charge is based upon what I can get it for. Incidentally, I finally found one which I sold for $350.00, wasn't easy finding it. |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 6:50:51 PM EDT
[#15]
I believe someone recently said AIM has a boatload of SAR's coming in soon. Just waiting for the form6's to be processed. Result, many to be on sale soon.
As Crookshanks says, places still have then at 'normal' prices. If they, FFLs bought the SAR's at 350, then of course they should sell them at a higher price. What I don't get is if they purchased them for lets say 199 and were selling at 239, why the price hike to 425. I call it crazy. |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 7:04:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Since some of you obviously don't understand the markup from wholesale to retail I'd like to say something. Gun dealers make jack shit. Most of them make a MEAGER 10-30% markup and are in their business because they love it. Most retailers mark things up 500-1000% and that's no lie. Any less provides a less than reasonable way to make a living. I would personally never, ever work for only a 10-30% markup. Would you go through the trouble of ordering a 279 dollar rifle for a miserable 28 dollars? I seriously doubt it. So before any more of you go on about price gouging and what a dick your FFL is maybe you should go take a job that pays you 490-990% less than what you make now, just to help your fellow man who shares your interest. Instead of bitching you should be thanking your FFL for being such a selfless person to even be in such a line of work.
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Posted: 9/24/2001 7:07:24 PM EDT
[#17]
2 words. Aim Surplus
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Posted: 9/24/2001 8:49:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Tell us how much you paid for the stipped Oly. I want to laugh at how bad your FFL screwed you on that.
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Posted: 9/24/2001 9:02:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Tell us how much you paid for the stipped Oly. I want to laugh at how bad your FFL screwed you on that. Smellyfish.... |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 9:16:30 PM EDT
[#20]
hatebreed, My wife is an executive for a large cosmetic company and they mark prices up about 60% I don't know where you get 1000% markups from. I'd like to know what products are marked up 500-1000% and where you got your information. My father owned some photography studios and camera shop and they didn't make 10%.
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Posted: 9/24/2001 11:37:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: My father owned some photography studios and camera shop and they [b]didn't make 10%.[/b] Your telling me your dad payed 100 dollars for a camera and sold it for less than $110? A camera made from $12 worth of metal and plastic and assembled by a 10 year old in china who works for .50 cents a day? At ten bucks profit per hundred he wouldn't have been able to pay his bills let alone his employees unless he was selling $2500 in cameras a day. (doubtful) Even then, that's only $250 a day or $7500 in a month in [i] profit[/i], and half of that goes to rent, bills, and employees. That leaves him $3,750. Then of course there is 33% taxes and 15% social security.(That's right it doubles when you don't have an employer to pay half)So we can kiss half of 3,750 goodbye. That leaves him $1,875 a month. That's a meager $22,500 a year. Just over $11.75 an hour to the average Joe. You gonna stick to that story? |
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Posted: 9/24/2001 11:46:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Just to be clear, your father would have had to gross $900,000 in sales each year just to make the $22,500 figure I just stated after bills and taxes at a 10% profit margin.
Maybe you could explain to us how a "large cosmetic company" can afford to even pay their (assumably MUCH higher) bills and overhead and (again assumably MANY more) employees at a 60% margin. I'm dying to know. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 1:16:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Most retailers mark things up 500-1000% and that's no lie. Walmarts mark-up is 1-3%. It's all about volume. FFL holders could take a lesson from them and quit trying to pay the bills by selling one rifle a week. They should be selling thousands of rifles a month at a small markup per rifle. That's how the sucessful stores around here do it. I really miss the days when B&E would sell AR's at a dollar over cost and turn a profit because they would sell several thousand in a week. It was a great thing to watch. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 1:50:22 AM EDT
[#24]
hatebreed, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. That is why he quit selling equipment and made most of his money on weddings and custom portraits. How many studios that sell camera equipment do you see around now? Wolf Camera, a big chain, just went out of business. How many small stores that don't specialize in something have you seen around lately? The reason is, Walmart and the other large chains sell almost everything at 1-3% profit. Small stores can't compete.
As far as the cosmetic company my wife works for, it is in almost every mall across the country and in Europe. Once again, simple volume of sales. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 1:51:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Oh, and how about those stores and products that are marked up 500-1000%?
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Posted: 9/25/2001 1:56:46 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Walmarts mark-up is 1-3%. It's all about volume. Ummm, no! I worked as an Auto Center manager at Wal-Mart and our [i]average[/i] markup was 25-30%. some products (like plastic and cloths) were as high as 70-80%. I don't know where you got your figures from but they are way off. I have no problem with a business making a large profit since rent and labor are usually 40% of expences. At Wal-Mart the Auto dept. would have gross sales of about $1,500,000 per year, yet only about 10% ($150,000) of that would be net profit after all expenses were paid, yet that still didn't include taxes, bonuses, etc. Basically what people are confusing is that there is a big difference between "gross profit" and "net profit." It is about supply and demand...it's called "CAPITALISM". sgtar15 |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 2:28:19 AM EDT
[#27]
I believe you all are getting off ot the original topic. The creator of the thread was complaining that stores which [b]originaly[/b] sold SAR's for about 250 is now selling at 425 when there are still SAR's around at the 'normal' price. I have no problem with stores earning a living, I just don't like them ripping people off when a crisis happens. Some stores are selling at the before crisis prices.
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Posted: 9/25/2001 4:24:19 AM EDT
[#28]
Sorry, I was a manager for a national clothing retailer. NOBODY only marks up 1-3%, not even Walmart. Maybe 100% mark-up, JCPenney was on average 300%.
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Posted: 9/25/2001 5:26:47 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Tell us how much you paid for the stipped Oly. I want to laugh at how bad your FFL screwed you on that. Well... I guess I can be a sucker to answer that question, since I'm NOT a sucker to pay for gouging prices... Yesterday I had two choices: 1. Buy Upper Only (From Olympic Through Dealer) & Have To Pay Taxes, which is what I did: $125.00 (Lower) + $8.75 (7% Tax) + $25.00 (FFL Transfer Fee) + $7.95 (Shipping & Handling). $166.70 total. I was going to buy their M4 16" Kit for $439.00, but I didn't have enough money to buy both at the time, thus I had to choose Option #1. 2. Use the Dealer's Trick to order it WITHOUT TAX. We would call the shop, claiming me to be a sales rep of the gunshop, say I want to order the lower (and kit, since oly doesn't sell just the lower to dealerships), and the M4 kit. Pay for it with my personal credit card, get both shipped to the gunshop. People would then verify that I *AM* an employee of the shop (Might as well be, I spend so much $$ there). Then I would have gotten the Lower & Kit for $589.00 (That's NO TAX, but INCLUDING the FFL Transfer fee $25)! NOTE: The reason I didn't do this is because I didn't have enough $$ for both the upper & Kit at the time. I also thought this procedure sounded fishy, ATTRACTIVE, but fishy, so for those two reasons I decided just to hike my nickers up & pay the big $$ for the Receiver. Don't get me wrong, the dealers are generally nice guys, and good at what they do, I just didn't like the darn SAR-1's jumping to $425!!! Last week they were $320, and before the WTC attack, they were $290!!! That $290 price is unbeatable, just considering there's no FFL transfer to be paid, etc... Walk home with them same day... (IMHO or IMDreams==> That's the way *ALL* gun shop prices should be)... -inuhbad |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 5:47:46 AM EDT
[#30]
Unfortunately, hatebreed is talking about his profession, jewelry sales.
I had a jeweler in the family for several years, until he went to law school and got an honest job. The average markup in gemstones and settings ranges from 400% ('friend pricing') to over 1000%. I work in AV systems integration, and across the industry, we're pleased as hell with a 25-30% markup. Only in retail jewelry and several other select markets with a tightly controlled distribution chain can you get away with the total fuckery of a 500% markup. QS |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 6:28:56 AM EDT
[#31]
7,
So if you don't want to pay $450, then go to another FFL holder. That's what the free market is all about. That's price gouging dude... whine! |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 6:37:59 AM EDT
[#32]
I am an FFL/SOT and get tired of all the pissing and moaning about prices. If it does not fit your budget don't buy it and look at another dealer. I mark up sporting arms 10%. That is all the market will bear in my area and I can't compete with Wally World or Cabelas, Gander Mountain etc on selection. My volume isn't high enough for me to get lower prices from the distributors. I do everything I can to make sure the customer gets what they want and when they want it and I keep my prices at or below the big Marts. I can do this as I have low overhead.
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Posted: 9/25/2001 6:51:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: This is not a disaster resulting you you needing an SAR. Louis "Need" is subjective. How can you know what others "need?" Maybe he wants an SAR because he believes that the terror attacks aren't over and he needs one to protect himself against the public panic it may cause? I'm sure it has to do with a little of both, supply and demand as well as a little profiteering. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 6:55:58 AM EDT
[#34]
I am going to call “BS” here.
All you guys using capitalism to justify the price increases need to think it all the way through. Dr. Williams, as much as I respect him, got it wrong, too, with his gas station example. The government requires certain things from gas station owners, double tanks, fire systems, fair measures, all fine because they are even. The government also control and licenses who can sell, and where, through licenses and zoning restrictions. This is not fair capitalism as Williams describes it, it is state imposed market restrictions. FFLs are even worse. Counter and store dealers have worked with anti-gunners and local governments to insure that: 1) there will be no new stores (through zoning laws), and; 2) there will never be any new dealers (the purge of the kitchen table dealers). Thus, by action of an armed police occupation force (ATF small dealer terror squads), and by dictate of the local government (zoning boards), and by federal fiat (FFL transfer laws), your local dealer has only the minimal competition he now has, and that is the only competition he will ever have, no matter what he does or what he charges. That is not capitalism, it is socialism at its very worst. Thus, when the dealer charges an extreme price, he is not making the profit that a fair and open market will bear, he is price gouging a captive customer base. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 7:01:36 AM EDT
[#35]
Keith's Sporting Goods in Gresham (just outside of Portland), OR treated me right. Yesterday I bought my first AR-15 from him. It was a Bushmaster A3 20" w/ carry handle and with the camo furniture. He charged me $819. Right now, his Bushmasters are $100 off his "sticker" price. I got the camo version for $140 off of his normal price.
Let me add that Keith's is strictly a gun & ammo shop. He told me over the phone he has about 2500 guns. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 7:17:27 AM EDT
[#36]
You didn't buy 7, so you were not gouged.
Notice what happened to prices of gas masks after 911? For that matter, what happened to supply? Demand went up, prices went up & supply dried up, prices up even more. Customers willing to pay a higher price & not look elsewhere will pay it. Perhaps if there was no other supply of and no large difference in quality of SARs I might agree ref gouging. We raised our prices 8-31 on the few LEGP ARs we bought for stock & then [red]lowered[/red] the price after 911 when we got the mfgr to make more without logo. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 7:52:51 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I am an FFL/SOT and get tired of all the pissing and moaning about prices...I do everything I can to make sure the customer gets what they want and when they want it and I keep my prices at or below the big Marts. I can do this as I have low overhead. Hey RockCreek, Where's your shop located? What's the Name/City, I'd like to stop by! I need to see other gunshops. Through my entire life, I've been to only FOUR gunshops that I thought were of top-notch quality: 1. (Forgot Name) Located just outside Waterville Minnesota, a HUGE Mom & Pops place with at least 5 of EVERYTHING, thus they have FANTASTIC PRICES! 2. (Forgot Name) Located just North (I think) of Hutchinson Minnesota, Last time I was there they were selling AR15's for about $550 NEW! They also had GREAT deals on 9mm, .223 and .308 FEDERAL AMMO in BULK! I loved their deals! Unfortunately I was only 18 at the time, and could only buy rifles. 3. Frontiersman gun shop in Minneapolis (St. Louis Park to be exact), and it's got PHENOMINAL PRICES!!! 4. Armored Fire Shop/Range in Circle Pines has GREAT SERVICE, and No-Bullshit Advice. Good Selection, and a range where you can rent nearly any gun they have for sale in their shop (Of course the rented ones are just for rent, and the shop ones just for sale), a Try Before You Buy thing... Their prices aren't that great, they're about $75 to $100 above everyone else, but their price includes a year long membership to their range, one free target per range visit (I think), and other small benefits. A good place overall, and they're pretty nice & straight forward. Oh, yeah, forgot to mention you can rent FA machineguns from time to time. I want to see other gunshops in Minnesota though, because Other than these frequented shops, I don't know of many other good ones. I'd like to see some of the small kitchen counter sales shops, small garage based shops, etc... I hear those places have great deals, but haven't been able to find any of them. -inuhbad PS. Perhaps we should get a Gunshop Locater with a Grading scale on how people rate these shops... That would be a great addition I think. |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 8:05:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: FFLs are even worse. Counter and store dealers have worked with anti-gunners and local governments to insure that: 1) there will be no new stores (through zoning laws), and; 2) there will never be any new dealers (the purge of the kitchen table dealers). Thus, by action of an armed police occupation force (ATF small dealer terror squads), and by dictate of the local government (zoning boards), and by federal fiat (FFL transfer laws), your local dealer has only the minimal competition he now has, and that is the only competition he will ever have, no matter what he does or what he charges. That is not capitalism, it is socialism at its very worst. Thus, when the dealer charges an extreme price, he is not making the profit that a fair and open market will bear, he is price gouging a captive customer base. Our very own steyrAUG just became a FFL dealer. I thought you said it was impossible?? There are 2 dealers that I know of within 5 miles of my house. Within 25, there's 10 dealers. If you have a phone and a car, there's still competition. |
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