During a drill?

I don't have a problem with the drill ... I do have a problem with the part in red.  The issue of pat downs doesn't seem to be addressed in the article at all.

I'm not trying to stir the pot.  I sincerely hope that my local LE NEVER has to respond to a hostage situation or shooting at any of the schools in my area, yet I want them to be prepared if such a situation does arise.

I am curious if a "line them all up and frisk them" type search has been conducted on a student body anywhere else, or if there is any legal precedent regarding this type of search.




Link



Realistic school drill riles parents
Saturday, October 28, 2006
By Barton Deiters
The Grand Rapids Press

WYOMING -- Students at Lee Middle and High School got a realistic look at what could happen if there was a threat in the school building. But some parents are saying it was too realistic.

On Thursday afternoon, Wyoming Police officers in riot gear with weapons out entered one high school and one eighth-grade classroom, both filled with young teens and announced there was a threat to the school. Students were unaware it was a drill.

Students were taken from the classroom into the halls and patted down by officers and asked what they had in their pockets.
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One student responded he had a "razor," which got the attention of officers, but quickly added he was referring to a "Razr" brand cellular phone, according to reports from students, parents and Principal David Britten.

Officers were wearing their protective tactical gear, which includes vests and helmets, and carried rifles that were unloaded and marked with colored tape designed to indicate they were not live weapons.

"Some of these kids were so scared, they just about wet their pants," said Marge Bradshaw, a parent with four children in Godfrey-Lee Schools. "I think it's pure wrong that the students and parents were not informed of this."

Diana Silva, a parent of an eighth-grade student at Lee, said the drill went too far.

"My child was with his face to the wall in the hallway of the high school," said Silva of her 14-year-old. "I certainly don't want anything like this happening to my child."

Britten said that in order to make the drill as realistic as possible, it was a good idea to keep it quiet from students. Teachers were informed only moments before the drill took place, he said.

One only has to look at the recent incidences of school violence to understand the possibility is real, said Britten, who has been principal at Lee for four years and served 21 years in the Army National Guard, retiring as a lieutenant colonel. He also self-published a history of the National Guard and the 46th Division entitled "Courage Without Fear."

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"I think this is the best way to do it," Britten said. "We're not looking to scare anyone, but we want a sense of urgency."

He said announced drills might not be taken seriously by students and staff.

Britten initiated the plan and invited Wyoming Police to take part with the approval of Superintendent Jack Wallington.
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"Given a choice between whether my child is upset or in a situation where they could be injured, I'd rather have them be upset for a while," Wallington said.

Wyoming Police Chief James Carmody said his officers were asked to come on the scene and were not aware students and parents were not told. He said this is the first time an exercise like this has been done by the department.

He said schools are among the most vulnerable of targets for violent individuals or terrorists and preparation is necessary, but changes will be made.

"We're going to mandate from now on that we notify parents ahead of time," said Carmody, who is in his first year as Wyoming's top cop. "The purpose was to show how we will evacuate the classroom, not to assault the classroom."

The Michigan Education Department has mandated all school districts have lock-down and so-called code red drills. But no one in Kent County does it quite like Godfrey-Lee did during fifth hour Thursday.

"We wouldn't do it that way," said Lt. Roger Parent, spokesman for the Kent County Sheriff's Department, who works with several districts. "No one should be surprised by uniformed police unless it is necessary. We want everyone to be aware of what's going on."

That's the tact also followed by Rockford and Wyoming.

"We may do it unannounced, but we don't bring in law enforcement officers," Rockford Superintendent Michael Shibler said. "And everyone's aware it's a drill."

Shibler and Wyoming Assistant Superintendent Coni Sullivan said the districts have had teachers watch scenarios played out by law enforcement, but never used students in the more realistic drills.

"We get kids locked down ourselves in the classroom, we're not putting kids out in the hallway," Sullivan said.

Yep kids have no rights.  It is a good expierience for them.

Yeah, minors don't have the same rights as adults. And the security of a school takes precedence here...Like they say, if you ain't got nothing to hide, you shouldn't have a problem with a search

I don't think the kids should be felt up.

Either intentional or accidental, percieved or whatever, hands off unless there is some valid reason to take said child into custody.


The solution is a simple one... sensitive metal detectors.  No entry into the school without passing through a supervised detector and screen individuals from there, once you have a reason.


I also think windows should be secured, to prevent intruders, or the passing of weapons, drugs, etc. from the outside, in. This doesn't mean you could'nt open them for air, but they need a cage completely encasing them.

If you had a K-9 at the school entrance too, that would be another huge benefit.


I realize all of this takes manpower, time, money, etc...
but are we serious about the situation, or we just want to keep playing games with it?

By the way....

Does anyone believe it's possible to make schools safe?




I sure don't.  Look at the prison system.
Complete lock down and full-time supervision.
Still just as much drugs and weapons and crime and violence as on the streets.

Not a damn thing you can do to stop savages.

Quoted: I don't think the kids should be felt up. Either intentional or accidental, percieved or whatever, hands off unless there is some valid reason to take said child into custody. The solution is a simple one... sensitive metal detectors.  No entry into the school without passing through a supervised detector and screen individuals from there, once you have a reason. I also think windows should be secured, to prevent intruders, or the passing of weapons, drugs, etc. from the outside, in. This doesn't mean you could'nt open them for air, but they need a cage completely encasing them. If you had a K-9 at the school entrance too, that would be another huge benefit. I realize all of this takes manpower, time, money, etc... but are we serious about the situation, or we just want to keep playing games with it?

Why don't we just send them to prision?

This just brings up all the side issues.

School choice.
Protect our borders and enforce immigration laws.
War on Drugs?????  

Maybe have the kids vote on it after they've been well informed.  
They may not have the right to vote etc. but theyve always had the right to self-protection, right from birth.

Quoted: Why don't we just send them to prision?

Because they would'nt be safe there either.

Essentially, thats my point.




But after all the Dateline episodes, do you really want your kids getting felt up?
What I'm getting at is, we know there are sick people all around us...
You give a green light to frisk kids and sooner or later, you're going to have an incident.


I don't see where frisking is going to do any good, period.

Quoted: metal detectors simply will not work in that enviornment. seen the lines at the airports? imagine 3000+ kids just like the EVERY morning. It would take hours just to get the kids in the buildings.

Well, it could be done.
If it means a row of 10 detectors, it could be done.

If you want to keep weapons out of the schools, it has to be done.
It would take longer to frisk and search bags one by one.

An airport model works.

UGH, you guys are kinda dumb you know that. you think this is about "a drill" for some bullshit? NO. its a Govtment  plan for "desentisation" IF you raise a whole genration of kids to feel they have no rights and no privacy and no this and no that then what do your think these kids are gonna be like when they grow up?? They are gonna be so used to this crap they wont object to it as adults. Thats the plan. Same with that fucking Fingerprint bullshit in malls. getting us ready for the police state. Pretty soon all us Older "punks" who were'nt exposed to this will die off then all youll be left with is those knuckle head sheeple.

Quoted: Quoted: metal detectors simply will not work in that enviornment. seen the lines at the airports? imagine 3000+ kids just like the EVERY morning. It would take hours just to get the kids in the buildings. Well, it could be done. If it means a row of 10 detectors, it could be done. If you want to keep weapons out of the schools, it has to be done. It would take longer to frisk and search bags one by one. An airport model works.

not really!

An airplane is a metal tube that needs only to be secured while it is parked once airborne there is no access.

A fixed building that requires mass movement of persons can not be secured in such a manner.  The best things schools could do would be to hire some off dutyARMED deputies to provide a roving patrol.  No passive measures are going to stop and prevent an armed person bursting in and start killing. "lockdowns" just provide a easy pooling place for victims. A camera does nothing, ect all

I don't think the kids should be felt up.

Either intentional or accidental, percieved or whatever, hands off unless there is some valid reason to take said child into custody.


+1000

I cant wait to hear the teachers reaction of this.  I am sure they subjected at least one teacher to this unconstitutional search, and being in an education family all my life, i can tell you that SH!T WILL HIT THE FAN.
I emailed my dad this morning b/c he works close by to this incident, I am sure he will be getting involved.

This would be a perfect gig for some retired peace officers or military.

Just make the ROE simple.
They are not there to enforce the law or look for violations or talk about DARE. They are to secure the building and engage anybody that is a threat. matter of fact old mil guys might be a better fit for the role "Walk the perim and building if there is a armed threat engage and radio for support"

Cheap and effective but then 99% of the laws and policies are designed to give the apperance of saftey not actuly provide it

Quoted: Quoted: metal detectors simply will not work in that enviornment. seen the lines at the airports? imagine 3000+ kids just like the EVERY morning. It would take hours just to get the kids in the buildings. Well, it could be done. If it means a row of 10 detectors, it could be done. If you want to keep weapons out of the schools, it has to be done. It would take longer to frisk and search bags one by one. An airport model works.

I can't believe you're arguing for this.

You must be a statist infiltrator.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: metal detectors simply will not work in that enviornment. seen the lines at the airports? imagine 3000+ kids just like the EVERY morning. It would take hours just to get the kids in the buildings. Well, it could be done. If it means a row of 10 detectors, it could be done. If you want to keep weapons out of the schools, it has to be done. It would take longer to frisk and search bags one by one. An airport model works. I can't believe you're arguing for this. You must be a statist infiltrator.

Weapons are not the problem... shitbird sicko's are your solution may remove some of the weapons.

My solution removes the shitbird sicko

Quoted: I cant wait to hear the teachers reaction of this.  I am sure they subjected at least one teacher to this unconstitutional search, and being in an education family all my life, i can tell you that SH!T WILL HIT THE FAN. I emailed my dad this morning b/c he works close by to this incident, I am sure he will be getting involved.

I doubt the teachers were searched during the excersise.

And it was NOT an "unconstitutional" search.

We run these is our buildings every now and then. No legal issues with them.

Av.

Let me tell you how this will end.  Everyone will think this is a great idea, keeping kids safe and all - right up until the moment when someone sticks their hands into little suzie's underpants during the search, and then all shit will break loose.

Ok, you can't comprehend my points so you resort to calling me a statist infiltrator.


You can't let anyone lay hands on innocent kids. A good majority are innocent.
A few are sickos.

Just like cops and teachers can also have sickos within their ranks. Theres no real way to weed them out. Both kids and adults are innocent until proven guilty, and once you can prove anyone guilty, the damage is already done.


Frisking every kid, and searching their bags, would be impossible.
Metal detectors, also probably impossible...
But which, in reality, would work out better? I say the latter.

Not that I like either one!



As far as I'm concerned... I only have two choices, home school or just don't have kids. I choose not to have kids. If I did, I would not throw them to the savages. Sure, you might be effective in prevention on the school grounds, but what about on the bus? Or at the bus stop?  Kids are just not safe, period.


You can't show me a safe prison, free from weapons, drugs, and violence...
There isn't a more controlled environment than a prison.
Even if we made schools into prisons, kids would not be safe.


Metal detectors and xray machines for bags... is at least a way to check carefully, and check every person. Because you could profile bad kids, and target only them... but whats to say Rotton Johnny didn't convince Sweet Suzie to carry the gun in for him?   But no, not foolproof, and no, definitely not efficient. Neither is pat downs, and my suggestion at least removes the possibility of molestation (imagined or actual).



This is all just a big excersize in futility.

Quoted: Weapons are not the problem... shitbird sicko's are your solution may remove some of the weapons. My solution removes the shitbird sicko

See, your talents are totally wasted.

Since you could pick out all the shitbird sickos from a group of 3,000 kids...

We should send you to Iraq, and have you pick out all the insurgents!






My suggestion merely treats everyone equally. Any system would have to be PC.
Anyone caught attempting to smuggle through the detector could then be cast out.
You need a valid reason to persecute people.

Can't just pull a Pink Floyd... "That one looks Jewish.."  CoC might actually prohibit me from quoting a song lyric? Hopefully you get the point.

Quoted: Quoted: Weapons are not the problem... shitbird sicko's are your solution may remove some of the weapons. My solution removes the shitbird sicko See, your talents are totally wasted. Since you could pick out all the shitbird sickos from a group of 3,000 kids... We should send you to Iraq, and have you pick out all the insurgents! My suggestion merely treats everyone equally. Any system would have to be PC. Anyone caught attempting to smuggle through the detector could then be cast out. You need a valid reason to persecute people. Can't just pull a Pink Floyd... "That one looks Jewish.."  CoC might actually prohibit me from quoting a song lyric? Hopefully you get the point.

It really is that easy someone with a weapon out w/o a uniform or a badge displayed at a school gets dropped, it really is that easy genius.  

When I was in school we would get spot cearched coming in.  during assemblys they would spot check lockers, run the dog through.  No backpacks alloed.

Quoted: It really is that easy someone with a weapon out w/o a uniform or a badge displayed at a school gets dropped, it really is that easy genius.

And exactly how do you find the weapon, genius?

Quoted: By the way.... Does anyone believe it's possible to make schools safe? I sure don't.  Look at the prison system. Complete lock down and full-time supervision. Still just as much drugs and weapons and crime and violence as on the streets. Not a damn thing you can do to stop savages.

Gee, someone with actual commonsense on an ARFCOM GD post.  The world must be coming to an end.

This "search" BS is getting to be ridiculous.

Thanks, Sader762

Quoted: Yep kids have no rights.  It is a good expierience for them.

WTF!??

You mean it's a good experience for them to be conditioned into accepting unreasonable search and seizures!!!

No fricken way should they be patting down all students during a drill - no way whatsoever.

This is clearly an UNREASONABLE search and seizure! There is NO reason to carry out an ACTUAL search of these kids because there's no ACTUAL crime or emergency going on.

Quoted: I don't think the kids should be felt up. Either intentional or accidental, percieved or whatever, hands off unless there is some valid reason to take said child into custody.

8th graders can't be carrying a weapon that needs to be secured while an officer is investigating - prior to arresting?

Not sure how I feel about officers pat searching students during a drill - probably should have left that to the school staff - but during an actual evacuation the officers have valid reason to pat search every student/teacher/parent/employee exiting the building.

Brian

Eventually we'll have people on arcom screaming, "Well, you don't wanna get searched, don't leave your home! The Constitutioon doesn't give you the right to leave your home!"


eta: And they will get in trouble if they try pulling this on part of the staff.

Quoted: Quoted: It really is that easy someone with a weapon out w/o a uniform or a badge displayed at a school gets dropped, it really is that easy genius.   And exactly how do you find the weapon, genius?

When it's in their hand it's pretty obvious

I don't have a problem with drills.

Yet I don't see why the students were not told they were having a drill.

I wouldn't mind seeing...

Dodge ball, swim class, and track...

Getting replaced with martial arts, gun club, and archery.



I think it would be nice if we could teach children to be responsible, have self control, and self reliance... not to mention, discipline.

Jeez, if we could get that far, we could arm all the kids and not have to worry.
It used to be this way, ask the old timers! Pocket knives were common, so were rifles.

We're moving backwards! And I don't mean back to the "good ol' days" I mean backwards like 3rd world. In many more ways than one.

This is China type shit.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It really is that easy someone with a weapon out w/o a uniform or a badge displayed at a school gets dropped, it really is that easy genius.   And exactly how do you find the weapon, genius? When it's in their hand it's pretty obvious

Have you been sucking on Dust Off this morning?

Quoted: I wouldn't mind seeing... Dodge ball, swim class, and track... Getting replaced with martial arts, gun club, and archery. I think it would be nice if we could teach children to be responsible, have self control, and self reliance... not to mention, discipline. Jeez, if we could get that far, we could arm all the kids and not have to worry. It used to be this way, ask the old timers! Pocket knives were common, so were rifles. We're moving backwards! And I don't mean back to the "good ol' days" I mean backwards like 3rd world. In many more ways than one. This is China type shit.

They won't even let the teachers be armed.

Hell, I just learned that I can't even carry my regular carry knife in a school. Max blade length for schools is 3 and a 1/2 inches.  Now I gotta buy a new stinking knife.

Quoted: They won't even let the teachers be armed. Hell, I just learned that I can't even carry my regular carry knife in a school. Max blade length for schools is 3 and a 1/2 inches.  Now I gotta buy a new stinking knife.

Where the hell are you?

Here, you carry a tiny SAK and you'll get expelled.
Zero tolerance.

Quoted: Quoted: I cant wait to hear the teachers reaction of this.  I am sure they subjected at least one teacher to this unconstitutional search, and being in an education family all my life, i can tell you that SH!T WILL HIT THE FAN. I emailed my dad this morning b/c he works close by to this incident, I am sure he will be getting involved. I doubt the teachers were searched during the excersise. And it was NOT an "unconstitutional" search. We run these is our buildings every now and then. No legal issues with them. Av.

Tell me more.  What legal precedent allows the police to line everyone up and frisk them?  Do the local police actually line all the kids up in the hallway and frisk them at your school?  Do they have female officers frisking the females and male officers frisking the males?




Edit - I understand and absolutely agree with police frisking everyone if there was an actual emergency, but can't comprehend what would be gained during a drill, except for "conditioning".  And I usually file the idea that an incident such as this would be solely for "conditioning" closer to the tinfoil realm than the plausible realm.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It really is that easy someone with a weapon out w/o a uniform or a badge displayed at a school gets dropped, it really is that easy genius.   And exactly how do you find the weapon, genius? When it's in their hand it's pretty obvious Have you been sucking on Dust Off this morning?

You obviously have zero experience or knowledge in:
1. Securing a facility
2. Economics
3. Constructive debate


I am a little busy

Quoted: You obviously have zero experience or knowledge in: 1. Securing a facility 2. Economics 3. Constructive debate I am a little busy sucking on my Dust Off

Fixed.

Quoted: Quoted: They won't even let the teachers be armed. Hell, I just learned that I can't even carry my regular carry knife in a school. Max blade length for schools is 3 and a 1/2 inches.  Now I gotta buy a new stinking knife. Where the hell are you? Here, you carry a tiny SAK and you'll get expelled. Zero tolerance.

Nevermind I take it back.  I was going on the say-so of a teacher friend of mine.
I just looked up the actual statute and the only provision against carrying a knife to a school is if its an "illegal knife" - defined as a knife having a blade over 5 1/2 inches long.

Quoted: Edit - I understand and absolutely agree with police frisking everyone if there was an actual emergency, but can't comprehend what would be gained during a drill, except for "conditioning".  And I usually file the idea that an incident such as this would be solely for "conditioning" closer to the tinfoil realm than the plausible realm.

I'm interested in more info about the searches as well, as far as the questions you've posed above, which I did not quote.

As for what I quoted...
I see the tin foil aspect, but on the other hand... I don't think its so far fetched. This is the way they'd like the country to be as a whole. Incrementalism. Start with the  finger printing on kids, start with searching the kids. Start with "terrorism" accusations when a kid draws a picture of a gun, or writes a story about zombies. Expect ID Tags to start with kids.

I mean, even without the tinfoil, you can see what effect this stuff is going to have in the long term. Once our kids find it totally acceptable, they'll pass it onto their kids. Schools are the initiation for liberalism, and I can't put anything past the whack jobs.

Colleges display more crazy than a mental ward these days, think thats not going to trickle down?

Your protection from search and seizure is dimminished on school grounds. But jeveniles DO have rights.

Quoted: Quoted: By the way.... Does anyone believe it's possible to make schools safe? I sure don't.  Look at the prison system. Complete lock down and full-time supervision. Still just as much drugs and weapons and crime and violence as on the streets. Not a damn thing you can do to stop savages. Gee, someone with actual commonsense on an ARFCOM GD post.  The world must be coming to an end. This "search" BS is getting to be ridiculous.

+1 here. What the hell has happened to our once free and great Country?

Quoted: I also think windows should be secured, to prevent intruders, or the passing of weapons, drugs, etc. from the outside, in. This doesn't mean you could'nt open them for air, but they need a cage completely encasing them.

Great idea...until there is a fire or a need to evacuate through the windows. Fire code will not allow this, and for good reason.

Quoted: Great idea...until there is a fire or a need to evacuate through the windows. Fire code will not allow this, and for good reason.

Thats simply not true.

Fire doors/windows with very loud alarms on them. "Emergency exits".
Yet all the normal windows can be caged.

One window in each class could be deemed "break glass in case of emergency" with a chair, and otherwise be unable to open. Or just alarmed. Either case it wouldn't need the cage.

Quoted: I don't have a problem with drills. Yet I don't see why the students were not told they were having a drill.

As the father of an 8th-grade girl...in Michigan... let me chime in here.

I will be printing out the article in question and meeting with my daughter's school this week and ask questions about what their "plan" is under this Michigan requirement.

That being said:

I don't have a problem with the drills.

I don't have a problem with the drills not being announced as a drill until afterwards.

I do have a problem with the pat-downs of students in the drill.

I do understand if it had been a real emergency they would search kids to see if there were any other perps hiding, but there was no need in the drill.

In our schools here, at the beginning of each school year, they send home a pamphlet detailing all of the school rules and code of conduct, dress codes, bus conduct, and punishments for violating any of the above. Some of the things stated in there include the rules for lockers, which state the locker is for the individual student assigned, the locker has a built in lock and the combination is not the be shared, you can not put your own lock on it, and they can check the contents of the locker at anytime. They also inslude a list of things that you are not supposed to bring to school, as well as things you can bring but must leave in your locker or it will be confiscated. Such as cell phones for example. you can bring them, but they are to be off and in the locker. Confiscated items will be returned to parents.

Luckily, my daughter's school doesn't have a "no backpacks" rule at the school, just in the classroom. backpacks are allowed for to/from school...and not allowed in classrooms.

"Post-Columbine" rules now include no hoodies or jackets/outerwear in the classrooms. No "gang symbols" on clothing....this includes skulls. Also no weapons images. (much to my daughter's dislike as she has a few shirts with guns on them)

Now in the past, they have had bomb threats at the schools, and had to clear out and unfortunately bomb threats are now the "pulling the fire alarm" of old. Some kids think it's cool and get out of class...and I think if caught should be prosecuted and charged $$ to put an end to the "thrill".

Sorry to rant so long.

No Expert

Isn't it amazing how our parents were able to carry thier hunting rifle to the shop class to make new stocks for them?

Nowadays, even drawing a picture of a gun in school can get you expelled.

As for 'frisking' students, Texas law allows it.  You can search a student at any time.

TRG

"My child was with his face to the wall in the hallway of the high school," said Silva of her 14-year-old. "I certainly don't want anything like this happening to my child."

I want my child shot by another student, not made to empty his pockets by police..he has rights your know.

I don't think schools need to change from how they've been operating for the last few decades.

The fact that we're having this discussion is unfortunate.