[url]http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html[/url]

I used to think some of you on this board were salvageable.  After yesterday, I learned a hard lesson:  That I've met leftist environmental wackos who have a better idea of what freedom and liberty mean.  Most of you on this board are just a bunch of adolescents who are pawns of the state--"useful idiots" I believe is the term.  

If OKC wasn't enough of a wake up call for you, maybe when ar15.com gets shut down by the FBI for "seditious acts" you will begin to understand the reality of what is taking place.

Also, for those of you who are soldiers, I hope you fully realize that your government cares nothing for your life.  It will use you up and throw you away when finished.  You'd be better off joining a militia and defending the 50 states in that manner.  At least then you will not be aligned with the guilty and their agenda for Amerika.

When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
September 12, 2001

The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't be a surprise.

It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth – that during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first place.

Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.

When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?

President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.

Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?

When will we learn that violence always begets violence?

Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over Scotland, and our government is convinced it was Libyans who did it.

When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment – that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.

How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.

But what about the American presidents who order bombings of innocent people – while the presidents remain completely insulated from any danger? What would you call their acts?

When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?

Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the first place.

When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in the name of freedom?

What to Do
What should be done?

First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind their own business.

Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.

Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to prevent our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against America.

Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and un-American – that this is not a time to question our country or our leaders.

When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason to be patriotic?

Hmm [:\]

Also, for those of you who are soldiers, I hope you fully realize that your government cares nothing for your life. It will use you up and throw you away when finished. You'd be better off joining a militia and defending the 50 states in that manner. At least then you will not be aligned with the guilty and their agenda for Amerika.

[red]Sounds Anti Amarican to me?  Your no better then the Palestins yesterday.[/red]

I gotta admit I am SOOOO fucking sick of the tinfoil-beanie-wearing conspiracy morons harping their anti-government stupidity in the wake of this attack.
This really is the time you find out who your enemies are and who your allies are.  You are not Americans, you are not my allies and as far as I am concerned, you can go to hell.

Harry Browne has the unique ability to take a simple statement of truth and somehow manage to twist it into a bald-faced lie!

He starts with the idea that our foreign policy is sometimes messed up and ends with the idea that we deserved everything we got yesterday, and may deserve even more!

From what I understand only military targets are being hit! What innocent people are being deliberately targeted in Iraq? If any are, you know its a mistake, don't you, I mean the US is certainly trying desperately NOT to hit civilians, right?

But Mr. Browne thinks we're evil in continuing the air war against Iraq.

Got to Hell, Mr. Browne, I'm sorry I ever voted for your limp-wristed ass!

Gee, I didn't know that Mr. Browne was such a devout Christian! That sure sounds like 'turn the other cheek' to me. How about to you?

I suppose we shouldn't have taught Nazi Germany of Imperial Japan any lessons, either?

Eric The(ThisIsTheLibertarianParty?)Hun[>]:)]

Best response i've seen to this argument is here:

[url]http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1-a.html[/url]

The article ny the Ornery American took a long and circuitous route to get there, but it finally arrived at a destination I can support:

Sounds reasonable to me, but it could have been said a lot better, and a lot of his rhetoric was just plain wrong!

Eric The(Skittish)Hun[>]:)]

WTF?

Harry Browne has lost all credibility with me.  What the f#@K?  Are we suppose to crawl into a cave?
Lately I have felt drawn to the Libertarian Party but it seems to me Mr. Browne is a pot-smoking hippie pacifist that has no intrest in the spread and protection of Liberty.

You people only see what you want to see and that is ok with me.

Harry Browne is a spineless WIMP!!!

You know what, you are right.

[b]"Good job Mr. Terrorists for teaching us a lesson!!!  THANKS A BUNCH!!  MR. BROWNE TOLD US SO, BUT WE CAN'T LEARN!!  Oh DARN!  Guess I should TOKE MY BONG and Vote LIBERTARIAN!  Guess we start over again, Huh!  What a sad story , OH WELL."[/b]

Your statement only applies to you.

Bashing America now is in extremely bad taste.  I pity your lack of loyalty to the greatest nation on earth.

No, it doesn't have to be perfect to get my support.

Patriot 'till I die.

For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

No shit...which is why the ACTION of MURDERING THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS will have an EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION of US KICKING THEIR FUCKING ASSES, Einstein.

Post from RikWriter -

You know Rik (may I call you, Rik?) for an Apostate[:D] you and I agree on just about [u]everything[/u] else!

Eric The(Let'sAgreeToDisagreeOnThe'Other')Hun[>]:)]

Yeah, I am a pretty conservative guy for the most part...but just because we're getting all chummy now doesn't mean we're gonna be taking long showers together until all hours of the morning...
[:D]

"pawns of the state"

Thats not adolescent.[;D] KNEE JERK!

No more Art Bell for you!

Understood, Rik! [>]:)]

The scariest part of this is the fact that some folks actually voted for this guy!  Thank you Kathleen Harris!

oh for pete's sake.  we didn't attack ourselves. we have done nothing to deserve this. read the editorial by the canadian newspaper posted elsewhere on this forum.

I may not agree with this guy Harry Browne but if you take the time to read a history book or two you begin to understand that nothing is a conspiracy. It doesn't have to be because people in general have their head in the sand. Meyer Rothschild, more than 150 years ago, laid out how to control a government and even bragged how he was able to create wars and control the outcome.
When I was a younger man you were laughed at if you talked about the existence of the Trilateral
Commission but now they talk about themselve in the open and have the audacity to admit their plan is a One World Government.
Clearly we hear only what we want to hear and disregard the rest.
Please wake up before it is too late.

My original post was deleted, I dont feel right expressing those type of views at this time.

Maybe someone should re-read George Washington's farewell address.  We have reaped what we have sown.  I, for one, have waiting for the day they would come after us.  It has arrived.

I believe we should have been, and should in the future be, neutral in all affairs of the world.  I haven't seen Switzerland being attacked recently.

Indeed.  I pity those that are terrorist sympathizers.

Totally unrealistic view.  If we isolate ourselves from the world and cease to be a superpower, that doesn't mean there will be no superpowers, it just means WE won't be one anymore.  Someone else will fill that power vacuum, and we won't like what happens to the world. We will wind up being strangled and eventually we would balkanize and be taken over.
We don't live in the 19th Century anymore, and George Washington was not a fortune teller.

Yes.  Just like the reaction of the British burning the White House after their defeat in The Revolutionary War?  Is that similar??  Did we "stretch our tentacles out too far" then, too??  I pity you.

I guess everything that doesn't include "kill ragheads" is just flying right over your head.

The point of the article is WHY do they hate the U.S. so much in the first place? They didn't just wake up one morning and say "Gee, lets go kill Americans." If this can be discovered then maybe the U.S. could avoid repeating such failed policy and averting further terrorist attacks.

Someday when you grow up, maybe then you will understand.

Sorry Imb, why doesn't matter right now.  Stop wasting time talking about it.  After we've killed the fuckers, then we can talk about why.

Who DON'T they hate? Who DON'T they attack? If you aren't an Israel-hating Koran-thumper, they hate you, isolationist or not.

Wasting time? What the hell do you people want to do? Just keep talking about ethnic cleansing and killing everyone of middle eastern descent?

What the hell do YOU care what we want to do, imb?  None of us are in a position of power to do anything, so why can't you let us vent a bit without trying to agrandize yourself into the position of "the reasonable man?"

Here you go:
America: The Good Neighbor

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave others billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by Tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, war- mongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why
don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -
not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at The lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one
of those."

Stand proud, America!"

oooohh! There's some actual dialog going on in this thread!

 Seriously, as sad and tragic as the past couple of days have been for most of us, this is only the beginning. It will not compare to the chemical and biological threats that are coming. I wish I had confidence in our govenment's ability to be able to stop it before it's carried out, but let's get real here. If they can't stop the hijacking of 4 airliners all at the same time, you are kidding yourselves if you think the powers can stop chemical and biological threats.
 
 In the past when the USSR was the biggest thread we somehow managed to reach a compromise or should I say more of a standoff. Much of it was done through nuclear/arms buildup, dialog, summits, treaties etc. and staying out of their business. Like him or not, this guy (Brown) does have some good points. Unfortunately for us, they are not profitable.

Well......yeah...For a little while anyway.
Then maybe we can get Israel to do the dirty work.

I can't believe the naivety of this statement.  I guess you would have rather the greatest generation watch the Axis slowly grind the rest of the world under their boot.

Unlike Switzerland, Americans stood up for what was right.  Americans made the sacrifices.  Americans sent a message to the tyrants and terrorist of the world that we will stand up for the liberties of all.  

There is no doubt about it.  The reason that democracy is flourishing in the world is because of America.  We support, nurture and make it possible for people to empower themselves to a fault.  

Every recent president before Clinton was operating in a completely different Cold War world where the normal rules didn't apply, but make no mistake, the cold war was a war.   If not for NATO and our allies, Stalin would have ground Europe under his boot.

We now have a new enemy to the liberty and freedom and they are Islamic fundamentalist.  Is this generation up to the task or will we allow the tyrants of the world to have their way?  

Hey Harry, ever heard of Neville Chamberland?  Yeah the Brit. who believed that if Hitler got Austria and Chechoslovakia(?) to keep the *peace*.

The world is an evil place.  Get a clue you gutless bastard!

Spambo