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Posted: 10/24/2006 10:38:09 PM EDT
I recently made a post about Costco's "no firearms" signs and policy. I emailed Costco and expressed my concerns and opinion about their policy. I just got the following reply. After Costco's reply below, I have included my reply to their response.
Note that we more than adequately covered the "who gives a damn" and the "concealed means concealed, so who cares" perspectives in the last thread, so please don't feel obligated to further espouse such unproductive indifference. I care about my constitutional rights, and my basic human right to self-defense (i.e. to life) ... and I consequently care about your rights too (whether you like it or not); that's why I'm taking the time to contact Costco, and to post this thread. Sure, I can vote with my wallet, and I am, but I can do more than that too. Email from Costco: 
My reply to the email above:
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Posted: 10/24/2006 10:55:22 PM EDT
[#1]
I would bet a small amount of money they don't reply. I did like the point where you argue their "Costco Experience" and then point out why they don't allow VISA or MC. Or put the ball back in their court about accepting liability for people in their parking lot or store.
All in all a good reply. Please keep this updated. By the way if "No Firearms" signs suddenly appear at my Costco, I blame you. |
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Posted: 10/24/2006 10:56:47 PM EDT
[#2]
I think the angle this "Karen" was going for is that by signing up for Costco membership you forgo your 2nd ammendment constitutional rights in exchange for admittance to one of their store fronts.
My question (this is a legal one) is can you legally sign away your constitutional rights in a contractual agreement with a private entity/corporation? I.E. does Costco have the legal ability to demand you forgo your constitutional rights as a part of the consideration in the contractual agreement? What Costco believes or doesn't believe is in the best interest of the safety / experience of its shoppers is irrellevant to the issue you are questioning. The issue as I see it is which supercedes what. The U.S. laws and statutes that govern the CCW License and 2nd Amendment, or a consent / contractual form to gain admitance to private services. If catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults... |
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:00:32 PM EDT
[#3]
interesting
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:08:17 PM EDT
[#4]
I'm sure a flame will come my way for not honoring my agreement to costco....
I carry anyway. Anytime I see a no weapons sign, I chuckle to myself. All they can do is throw me out. |
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:11:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Costco is a private corporation. If you sign their contract, then you abide by their rules. They have no duty to protect your constitutional rights. Their house, their rules. That being said, I also see no problem at all in criticising them and telling them that their policy may prove to be unpopular. Hell, they may read the part about many stores not having signs posted, then issue a memo to all the stores to post signs. They may see members stop shopping because of the signs, then they may rethink their position. Who knows? Best way to get a company to change policy is to hit them in the pocketbook. If they see that their assinine policy starts fucking with the bottom line, they may rethink it. |
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:11:14 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:15:30 PM EDT
[#7]
touche. remember, "concealed means concealed". 
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:20:22 PM EDT
[#8]
tilting at windmills
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:22:35 PM EDT
[#9]
+1Anyways, I Don't have a Costco card, I take my mother there often so she can get whatever (She has the membership). Oops sorry, I never signed shit, and you can't see my CCW. So HA HA! |
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:30:13 PM EDT
[#10]
I appreciate your effort but you have made two mistakes so far as I can tell. The slighter of the two is that your repsonse letter outlining the ATM breakdown during a shooping trip of yours, does not explicitly mention it happened recently, but it shows that Costco prohibiting firearms is not as problematic as you make it out to be, since you yourself continue to shop there.
The greater of the two problems is your misunderstanding of the Constitution's application (at least in the terms that you expressed in the letter). The only thing that the Constitution protects us against is the government when it comes to restriction and regulation. Thus, federal and state legislature along with public institutions (schools for example) cannot make policy that is repugnant to the Constitution. The private sector on the other hand can. If you were employed at the Deputy Sheriff's office at the time of the Reagan assassination and you said to your co-employer in the lunchroom "If they go for him again, I hope they get him" you cannot be fired for execising your 1st amendment rights to free speech (This was the case of Rankin v. McPherson). Now try that in the Costco lunchroom. Absent a contract they have every right to fire you without cause, so long as there is no legislation to prevent them from doing so (like the employee antidiscrimination acts). Whether open to the "general public" or to approved members in a private capacity, Costco is private property just like your mother-in-law's condo and if either require you to be disarmed before entering their private dwelling/establishment it is their right to do so. This is why drugs found by a cop in your niece's apartment without a warrant will be thrown out, but a stolen stereo "of yours" that your roomate took out of your locked room and turned over to the police is admissible. your right to privacy is secured against governmental intrusion, not Floyd intrusion. The better point would have been to avoid the argument and state that you don't appreciate the way they treat you as a person who excercises his Second Amendment rights and if that is their postion you will not give them your business and see to it that others who think like you know their position so they can do the same. |
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:30:20 PM EDT
[#11]
??? Any schmuck with $45 can get an annual membership. |
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Posted: 10/24/2006 11:30:34 PM EDT
[#12]
I didn't read through the original "Part 1" of this thread, so I don't know if it was brought up, but we went through "Costco and CCW" back in Dec 2004...
archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=304599&page=1 Between that and the fact that guys that run it endorsed Kerry, contributed big time to the Democrats and the business is on buyblue.com as a "blue company" I won't have anything to do with them even though my shopping choices are more limited up here and they have a store in Kalispell. Fuck 'um. |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 12:12:26 AM EDT
[#13]
HQ is in king county, wa. Issaquah to be exact... to put it mildly, i give them one of my many PAC-NW faggot awards. |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 2:13:03 AM EDT
[#14]
It's their house....
So it's their rules. They have the "right" to set the rules in their house. You have the "right" to patronize them or not. If someone wronte me a letter telling me how to run my business or how I should change the rules in my house, I'd tell 'em to FO! This is America and we're free to run our businesses and homes as we please. . |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 3:08:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Vote with your wallet and take your business elsewhere.
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:24:08 PM EDT
[#16]
I just keep my old card and wander in for lunch whenever I feel like it. They have good pizza slices. |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:29:12 PM EDT
[#17]
My wife was wanting to get a Costco membership.
After reading about their policy on ARFCOM they lost a new customer. Fuck 'em. |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:33:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Black Ops it's a good fight, but fact is it's there place they make the rulles, just as I do on my own propery.
That said your welcome to CCW at my place, I just don't have bulk dog food and beer 
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:43:33 PM EDT
[#19]
This is what happens when lawyers get involved, I don't see it changing anytime soon.
I'll still carry every time I go to Costco though.. |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:43:57 PM EDT
[#20]
I went the rounds with them and eventually canceled my membership. That pissed my wife off and she immediately went and got her own membership.
 Now I just go with her when I need to get something there. She pays for it, and I did not sign my rights away. I have inspected the premises carefully and there are no "No Weapons" signs that I have seen, not that it would mean anything in my state anyway. |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:47:29 PM EDT
[#21]
I'll check the Winchester VA one next week when I go down. I'll ask what their policy is on Concealed Carry.
Sure will suck if I have to start going to the Sams in the PRM (Peoples RepubliK of Maryland) No CC unless you're a criminal. |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:50:34 PM EDT
[#22]
DRAW DOWN®
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Posted: 10/25/2006 1:51:45 PM EDT
[#23]
+1 |
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Posted: 10/25/2006 2:25:01 PM EDT
[#24]
For all of the armed robberies occurring within and around Costco warehouses, it is positively laughable that they would say "firearms do not enhance the Costco experience."
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Posted: 10/26/2006 12:00:38 PM EDT
[#25]
IMO, the 2nd doesn't apply to private property.
However, making them aware that they will lose business with such signs posted is good. Or is it? Would we not rather these people speak what they think, so that we may know who they truly are? With that knowledge we should take our business elsewhere. In any case, I appreciate your efforts in communicating with them. |
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Posted: 10/26/2006 12:11:29 PM EDT
[#26]
I like the part about the sign only eliminating customers. I don't think even anti-gun people trip over themselves looking for a grocery store with a "no firearms" sign. The sign only gets rid of customers, it does not bring them in.
A second good point if it is true is that the sign does not effect legal liability or insurance premiums. You should sight a source or a few cases if you can. These two points speak the Costco language. It addresses their main concerns of customer satisfaction and money. Hey at least they gave you a good response instead of the standard sorry letter with a coupon! |
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Posted: 10/26/2006 12:23:06 PM EDT
[#27]
I have a Costco membership, but I don't let that little rule bother me. Like BlackOpsSec said, concealed means concealed.
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Posted: 10/26/2006 12:24:37 PM EDT
[#28]
2nd amendment = protection from the FEDERAL government, no one else.
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Posted: 10/26/2006 12:33:20 PM EDT
[#29]
+1 |
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Posted: 10/26/2006 12:42:42 PM EDT
[#30]
I have had a Costco membership for years. I rarely even go there, but it's nice to have that option. I don't care for their anti-gun policy and think that they're ignorant for choosing to have it, but I could really care less. I will continue to CCW while there and no one will be the wiser. And if some wackjob ever goes postal in there, I will defend myself and others. They can cancel my membership at that time (and probably will -- because to liberals, there's NO difference between villianous scum shooting unarmed innocent people, and a hero that uses a gun to save someone's life).
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Posted: 10/26/2006 12:59:11 PM EDT
[#31]
I carry at my Costco every time I go. There's no sign there. Plus I agree with the guys who said "concealed means concealed" and "all they can do is throw me off."
True, they have the right to set the rules in their house, but like I said, there's no sign at my Costco *yet*. And I have the right to self-protection. I'm not a criminal going on a shooting rampage, I'm a woman, with myself and 3 children to protect... and king sized groceries to buy.
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Posted: 10/26/2006 1:12:00 PM EDT
[#32]
SAve the letters. If something ever happens in a COSTCO store involving an attack or assault, and the victim sues, be sure to forward the letters to the attorney.
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Posted: 10/26/2006 1:21:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Just send them an email every time you visit their store while CCWing.
"Hi, it's me again. I visited your store with a GUN on me today. Just thought you'd enjoy knowing it. Sincerely, The Phantom CCWer" |
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Posted: 10/26/2006 1:29:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Just do what I do.
I carry EVERYWHERE possible. Except if I'm flying somewhere. Signs or no signs. It's a lot easier to get out of jail than it is to get out of the casket, if you get my drift. Don't "print", or let anyone know you are carrying, and everything is A-OK! B |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 7:27:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Costco: a leftwing company that contributes money to anti-gun causes.
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Posted: 10/27/2006 7:52:31 PM EDT
[#36]
The thing is it isn't really a "members only" shopping experience.
Anyone can walk into the place. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 7:54:08 PM EDT
[#37]
+1 They suck. Fuck Em. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 7:55:05 PM EDT
[#38]
well thought out argument
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Posted: 10/27/2006 7:58:33 PM EDT
[#39]
They can? Around here they check membership cards at the door. Oh, and no "No Firearms" signs on either Costco here in town. Not that a "No Firearms" sign makes a hill of beans of difference in Texas. 
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:07:26 PM EDT
[#40]
Exactly. When this came up a year or two ago, I cut their card in half and sent it back to them. Month 11 out of my first year as a member. In accordance with their membership policy, I asked for and received a full refund. I told them exactly why I wanted it, and that I would be getting a Sams Club membership, from a company who does indeed honor the spirit of the Second Ammendment. This thread is amazing though. Sneaking to CCW like little kids, or better yet trying to rationalize why a private company has to honor Constitutional protections from the .gov. Clue: If you have to sneak to do it you are a childish coward. Clue 2: Private companies piss on the First, Second, Fourth, and Fifth Ammendments daily. And its perfectly legal. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:20:34 PM EDT
[#41]
Uh no, that is what CCW (CPL in WA but we know that) is, otherwise it is open carry. Do you open carry in all of King County? Private comanies can make rules, but they cannot remove your rights. If they could, then Dept. of Labor would be powerless. As it is, DL says they cannot remove your rights even if you agree to the "removal" Just try to agree to no lunch break (unless there are unique circumstances), DL will still charge the company and win, right? |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:25:44 PM EDT
[#42]
Up here ya just need it at checkout... they just give you a howdy when you walk in. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:36:06 PM EDT
[#43]
The only time I won't CCW is in a place forbidden by law, not by some private company. Who are they to tell me where and when I can carry? I'll carry and the only way anyone can stop me is if they actually see the gun and can manage to physically remove it from me. Then somehow, they've violated some laws... I'm not even sure which.
You people actually pay attention to those signs that say "No Guns?" (with exception to places considered unlawful to CCW) Please... |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 9:30:18 PM EDT
[#44]
So if states want to legalise slavery that's their business? 
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Posted: 10/27/2006 10:39:18 PM EDT
[#45]
Good letter.
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Posted: 10/28/2006 9:03:47 AM EDT
[#46]
right on, carry anywhere but a place you are not LEGALLY allowed to, IE gov facilities, bars etc |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 9:32:42 AM EDT
[#47]
Read the Thirteenth Amendment. Hint, it is the only amendment which restricts private activity. Also, Slavery is a federal crime, and the Supremecy Clause prevents States from enacting laws in conflict with Federal Law. BTW, JonnySak, you should read the Fourteenth Amendment, It has been interpreted to impose most of the Bill of Rights upon the states. Too the best of my knowledge, there has not been any Supreme Court case law determining whether or not the 2nd Amendment was incorporated by the 14th to apply to the States. Mark |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 11:24:40 AM EDT
[#48]
If you are found carrying, what are they going to do, ask you to leave?
Screw them. If you want to keep shopping there, keep shopping there, and just don't make it obvious and give them a reason. The botom line is this: if shopping there benefits you, then it benefits you. Costco isn't going to take a hit simply because a few ARFcommers stop shopping there. |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 12:04:44 PM EDT
[#49]
I disagree. They don't support our rights while they avoid making their position public. Ken is doing a great job. Maybe if the NRA gets involved, like in the Conoco Phillips case, Cosco will take the hit. |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 2:35:29 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm sorry, but I missed Part One. Specifically WHAT anti-gun causes does Costco contribute to and how? Monetarily? What? To be honest, I don't feel like searching throught the archives looking for this...  Sorry, but that's the truth, I'm ornery today, and I've got alot on my plate, but I really would like to know. Thank you!
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