User Panel
Posted: 9/5/2001 3:36:13 PM EDT
[size=6][b][red]FIRES!!![/red][/b][/size=6]
This is a simple concept. If your desire is to merely drive someone out of a structure, please use a CS cannister that does not have the word "pyro" in its name. If, on the other hand, you wish to burn them up for retribution, to destroy evidence, or whatever other reason, use pyro technic devices that will further divide you from society (at least the ones who give a damn). I am not anti-LEO, as anyone who knows me will attest. It is getting damned old having people burned up in fires that began immediately after flammables were introduced by LEO's, then the same B.S. story is told that they "committed suicide." You guys deal with the aftermath of suicide often, right? Let me ask a question--how many people commit suicide by setting their house on fire? How many use a firearm? The individuals said to be committing suicide by setting fire to their house almost always have a firearm in their hand at the time they alledgedly set their house on fire, right after pyro technics are introduced. Seem odd? It does to me. [pyro] Edited to add: The above rant is not to imply that the vast majority of LEO's would deliberately cause a fire or commit any criminal act. [:D] |
|
Cop basher! Those devices ONLY start fires in the homes of those that are guilty.
|
|
Yeah, and if the creeps weren't guilty then the pyro device wouldn't be launched into their home. Cop Basher!!! [;)]
|
|
Beekeeper- Perhaps these fires are starting from the lack of flash suppressors on the firearms they use to commit suicide.
If these agencies would change the 94 crime bill the problem would end. With these alleged criminals having to use postban weapons the fire danger has increased dramatically. The only other alternative would be to instuct them by mail before serving warrants that they should remove all combustibles away from where they will be starting their standoff. Hope this highly intelligent observation helps all government agencies involved. Please remember suicide with postban firearms always causes incineration of surroundings. Be smart, use preban for your next attempt. |
|
You are NOT going to like my response !!!!
If I already had at least one Officer down and the perp was still firing from the structure I would introduce tear gas. If he still continued to fire from the structure [b]AND[/b] I knew there were NO OTHER INDIVIDUALS inside I would hit it with EVERYTHING at my disposal !!!! This IDIOT signed his own death warrant. I have willingly placed my own life at risk to save a hostage, but I WILL NOT RISK MY LIFE OR ANY FELLOW OFFICERS LIVES TO ARREST SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST KILLED A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER [b]AND[/b] WHO IS STILL CONTINUING TO ENGAGE THE OFFICERS WITH RIFLE FIRE. Rules of Engagement for almost every Law Enforcement Agency in the U.S. - When engaged with a suspect you are to respond with the next step on the ladder of force above what the suspect is using. When deadly force is used you WILL respond with deadly force. Gunrunner [b]1*[/b] |
|
Quoted: You are NOT going to like my response !!!! Gunrunner [b]1*[/b] View Quote I was afraid my thread would be taken as bashing LEO's. It was not intended that way, hence the edit. You are wrong about your post, if you think I would not like it. I agree 100%. My thread really did not refer to the Beck case--I meant it as a general rant about the apparent "scorched earth" policy that [b]seems[/b] to be employed beginning at Waco. In the Beck case I found it disturbing to see the fire fighters spraying water on the neighbor's houses (after LEO's shot them up), but did nothing to save the Beck home and the evidence it contained, not to mention his life. I have watched your posts enough to know you are a [b]good[/b] LEO, so you know a perpetrator is to be apprehended and brought to trial, if at all possible. CS cannisters will accomplish this, as I understand it (I'm not an LEO), and the pyro technics I wouldn't think would need to be used. I may be way off base--perhaps there is only one type? I'm quite certain I've seen CS in a "bug bomb" type of cannister that just sprays the gas with no chance of fire. Anyway, I can see [carefully!] risking your life to SAVE a victim, but when under attack, save your own asses first--screw the perp. As always, THANKS for what you do! Mike |
|
thebeekeeper1, sorry about "going off" but I'm getting more than a little annoyed at the Anti-Cop postings and maybe I'm getting a little "thin skined". I left Bowers' Board several years ago when posts start appearing about "Killing Cops", I DON'T want AR15.com to sink to that level.(and there HAVE been a few here)
Yes there ARE canisters that REDUCE the chance of fire BUT, do NOT eliminate it. And on the subject of B.A.T.F. Officers, yes there ARE BAD Officers working for the ATF, BUT, I do know several Enforcement Branch Officers working out of the K.C.MO. Office that are Pro-Gun and will not defend many of B.A.T.F.'s actions INCLUDING Waco TX. Do not lump everyone together, ANY group has a cross section of the population, good , bad, etc., etc. Gunrunner |
|
Quoted: thebeekeeper1, sorry about "going off" but I'm getting more than a little annoyed at the Anti-Cop postings and maybe I'm getting a little "thin skined". I left Bowers' Board several years ago when posts start appearing about "Killing Cops", I DON'T want AR15.com to sink to that level.(and there HAVE been a few here) Yes there ARE canisters that REDUCE the chance of fire BUT, do NOT eliminate it. And on the subject of B.A.T.F. Officers, yes there ARE BAD Officers working for the ATF, BUT, I do know several Enforcement Branch Officers working out of the K.C.MO. Office that are Pro-Gun and will not defend many of B.A.T.F.'s actions INCLUDING Waco TX. Do not lump everyone together, ANY group has a cross section of the population, good , bad, etc., etc. Gunrunner View Quote But you do agree that the training and tactics of the LACSO do need to be given a serious going over. Shooting up the neighbors houses has no justification. We started using professional law enforcement in this country about a hundred years ago just to get away from this kind of crap- possymen had a very poor history of finding the right house and killing the wrong people. What the LACSO showed in this was not a improvement over 100 years ago. |
|
Quoted: Rules of Engagement for almost every Law Enforcement Agency in the U.S. - When engaged with a suspect you are to respond with the next step on the ladder of force above what the suspect is using. When deadly force is used you WILL respond with deadly force. Gunrunner [b]1*[/b] View Quote Does this mean in a situation where law enforcement runs out of ammo, like in Waco and Lubbock, you can call in arty on your own position? |
|
It wouldnt be so bad if the leo's only shot up the bad guy's house! noooo they have to shoot up the hole neighborhood, and kill one of their own in the process!
|
|
Quoted: I have willingly placed my own life at risk to save a hostage, but I WILL NOT RISK MY LIFE OR ANY FELLOW OFFICERS LIVES TO ARREST SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST KILLED A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER [b]AND[/b] WHO IS STILL CONTINUING TO ENGAGE THE OFFICERS WITH RIFLE FIRE. View Quote i have a legitimate, non-LEO bashing question. where is it stated that authorities absolutely, undeniably have to go in right then and there, when the only way of doing that is, at the very least, causing property dammage (sometimes lots of it), and, at the very worst, results in the loss of the "bad guy's" life? if you're taking fire and the "bad guy" is not giving up, and the only way to get him is through EXTREME force, why can't you back off? pull out? get behind those little yellow perimeter marking tapes? i only ask because if it were a hostage situation (assuming he wasn't offing the hostages), going in like a crazed banshee isn't really an option. so why not treat the lone "bad guy" as if he's a hostage-taker and use all the techniques in hostage rescue like negotiation, waiting, loss of electricity, heat,water? why aren't these things employed? |
|
I think the key to Gunrunner's post is "continuing to engage the officers with rifle fire". If reports are true that Beck had the high ground and that he had deputies pinned down, then pulling out is obviously easier said than done.
The tough part about shuting off the electricity, water, heat, etc, is that you would have to approach the house where all the meters/controls are located. Yeah, you could shut down a whole grid, but if you're going to wait this guy out, (for how long) what do ya do with the rest of the neighbors? In your scenario; "if you're taking fire and the 'badguy' is not giving up", backing off is the last thing I would want to do. Beck appearantly shot many rounds and presumably only hit his mark once. Where were the rest of his rounds hitting? Could he have been shooting at the neighbors who "ratted" him off? Remember, it was a populated neighborhood not a ranch in the boonies. For the officers to have backed off and said "sorry folks, you're on your own" is IMO unthinkable. "Get behind those little yellow perimeter marking tapes?" LOL. That one was cute. |
|
Beck supposedly was firing a scoped .30-06 rifle. Effective range could be out to about 500 yards. With that rifle he would have a zone of appx 0-150 yards where there was NO cover for the LEO's. Houses, cars, and trees only offered concealment.
The LEO weapons, handgun and shotgun have much shorter ranges, and a house would be cover against those weapons. If they had .223 rifles the effective range might be 300 yards, 100 yards would be the approximate range to defeat a house as cover. The LEO's should only fire when they have a target. I think they may have been trying to "surpress" Beck since they didn't have good cover. If the LEO's had pulled back, they would have had to pull back far enough so they couldn't see Beck's house in order to be concealed. That would have given Beck MOBILITY. An armed man is bad, and armed mobile man is really dangerous. I looked at the specs. of some 12ga, 37mm, and 40mm gas rounds in a sales catalog. Most 37mm and 40mm rounds had ranges from 60-150 yds, and 40mm rounds actually had less range than 37mm rounds (???). With those shells the buyer could chose pyrotechnic or non-pyro. But there was 1 shell listed for 37mm that had barricade penetrating capabilities and a 300 yard range. It was only available as a pyrotechnic round. They did call Beck during this incident, he said he wasn't coming out and they would pay if they came in. How long can you wait for a person that is actively shooting to come out?? What if one of his rounds hits someone 1000 or 2000 yards (by luck, or chance) from his position. How would you evacuate people in every dierction for a mile, quickly?? Can the police sit by and risk that kind of risk to an innocent bystander?? |
|
gunrunner i can understand your point of view. But, an LEO's duty is not judge and executioner. Sure this guy was a dumbass and a dirtbag. But the LEO's screwedup BIG time. The problem with leos is they think they are now urban commando's instead of law enforcement. LEO's have their hands tied with use of deadly force for a reason. They should be trained in proper use of force and tactics. these guys were not.
jmho mike |
|
By Gunrunner
You are NOT going to like my response !!!! If I already had at least one Officer down and the perp was still firing from the structure I would introduce tear gas. If he still continued to fire from the structure AND I knew there were NO OTHER INDIVIDUALS inside I would hit it with EVERYTHING at my disposal !!!! This IDIOT signed his own death warrant. View Quote Well, some reports say the LEO's shot their own, that Beck wasn't the shooter. We'll probably never know for sure, but I don't like the idea that someone "signs their own death warrant" based on a mistake by the LEO's. The shootout in Lubbock Texas a few weeks ago almost got the suspect killed after an LEO was killed, yet the suspect didn't even have a gun on him. Would be a real shame for someone to be executed for something they didn't even do. Last time I checked, LEO's weren't given Death Warrants to be served against the lowly plebes. With all the confusion that surrounds these events, the execution of the suspect can often be based on incorrect information. We end up with an "oops". Look at the 11 year old boy shot in the back with a 12 gauge during a raid gone bad at the wrong address. Here's a question: Why did the media and the public buy the BS line that firefighters couldn't suppress the fire in Becks house? We could all see them spraying water on the surrounding houses, there is NO REASON they couldn't have sprayed water on Beck's house. My only conclusion is that the establishment was pissed a cop was dead and wanted Beck dead as well. Retribution is a poor SOP, but I don't claim that I would be above it. |
|
Quoted: thebeekeeper1, sorry about "going off" but I'm getting more than a little annoyed at the Anti-Cop postings and maybe I'm getting a little "thin skined". I left Bowers' Board several years ago when posts start appearing about "Killing Cops", I DON'T want AR15.com to sink to that level.(and there HAVE been a few here) Yes there ARE canisters that REDUCE the chance of fire BUT, do NOT eliminate it. And on the subject of B.A.T.F. Officers, yes there ARE BAD Officers working for the ATF, BUT, I do know several Enforcement Branch Officers working out of the K.C.MO. Office that are Pro-Gun and will not defend many of B.A.T.F.'s actions INCLUDING Waco TX. Do not lump everyone together, ANY group has a cross section of the population, good , bad, etc., etc. Gunrunner View Quote I think I understand your frustration. After 8 hours of "cold shoulder" on the job you do not come here for an hour of R&R to listen to more crap about LEO's. Please keep in mind the bashers are only a half dozen or so out of 12,000. "Illegitimi non carborundum" comes to mind--don't let the bastards wear you down. You no doubt know 99.9% of the members here are among the [b]most[/b] law abiding of American citizens--and that is exactly why we get so upset over being demonized for our chosen hobbies. We know LEO's don't make the laws, but you guys, on occasion, are the tip of the spear used against us. It puts you in a tough position, especially when you are, by default, on both sides of the equation--freedom-loving gun owner [b]and[/b] LEO. Tough row to hoe. You, and the others who have chosen to identify themselves as LEO's, are valuable members here. You offer insight into the world of LE. I enjoy the perspectives given. Thanks for your daily efforts in the state I plan to retire in, and thanks for your contributions here. |
|
I lurk here much more than I post......but based on my experience of supervising, for ten years some of those guys that dress in black; standing outside while being shot at from inside, being responsible for the safety of on scene fire personnel, medical personnel, bystanders, neighbors, and the people I was supervising, it is a much more complicated problem to deal with than it may seem. It is really sort of difficult to walk that thin line of keeping everyone safe, doing the job that you are responsible for, trying not to get your own a** shot off, worry about the civil suits, and attempting to get the "bad/crazy" person to give up without killing the bast**d all at the same time. It tends to be a little stressful being shot at and having a whole bunch of rules to follow, not to say that the rules should not be there. I must admit to zinging a few burning projectiles in the window a time or two.........must have been those 30-06 rounds from the Garand coming my way that caused my lapse in judgement, bullets tend to do that. As I recall, I zinged a few shotgun launched flares in that particular window too when I ran out of other stuff to shoot. But I must also admit that I was shooting it all at the correct house.
|
|
Quoted: . . . it is a much more complicated problem to deal with than it may seem. View Quote Man, you said a mouthful there. Of course, those of us not involved in such things can never comprehend all the dynamics going on. Thanks for the glimpse. |
|
Quoted: Here's a question: Why did the media and the public buy the BS line that firefighters couldn't suppress the fire in Becks house? We could all see them spraying water on the surrounding houses, there is NO REASON they couldn't have sprayed water on Beck's house. My only conclusion is that the establishment was pissed a cop was dead and wanted Beck dead as well. Retribution is a poor SOP, but I don't claim that I would be above it. View Quote They could have put water on Beck's house but it would be like trying to fill your cars gas tank when your parked 10 feet from the pump and the pump has a 4' hose. A working structure fire is an intense fire temperatures reach over a thousand degrees. Most of the water that would be sent to the house would hit the roof and drain off. What is Beck's responsibility here?? Does he not have a responsibility to get out of a burning house if he doesn't want to be burnt. Is he not responsible for his choices?? |
|
beck was probobly overcome by toxic vapors or superheated gases before he knew he was in trouble. Had he come out it is almost certain he would have been shot based on the way this was handled.
|
|
Wow, this board really impresses me! We have folks here who weren't there, never been there, never will be there who know all the answers! Hmmm, let's see, have you ever been shot at by high power rifle fire? By someone who has just killed someone you know who is nearby? How is your fire dicipline? Don't really know do you armchair commando's? Well in Beck's case, and many others, you don't have the option to "wait it out". Yellow barricade tape won't stop highpower rifle fire, it ain't cover. He, his dog, and his house burned to a crisp, sooooo what? In a case like his, a 40mm willy pete is much more apropriate than CS in my humble view. Of course, that is just my view. Even though I am someone who has been shot at, and hit, and someone who has thrown a bit of it back. But I obviously don't know near as much as the ChairBorne Rangers we have here who know it all...
|
|
gunrunner. I wonder how many people here know what 1* even means![;)]
I have day one of a 2 day chemical agents instructors course out of the way. So I'll comment while it's fresh in my mind. CS/CN/OC chemical agents are a tool designed to do a job. They are not the be all end all. Some are very effective. Some are almost useless. How effective they are also depends on variables that the user has no control over either. Wind,humidity,rain, knowledge of gas grenades by the perp and how to defeat or lessen the effect of the gas. They all have what is called the "throw back" factor. Pyrotechnics don't have as much of a "throw back" factor for the simple fact they are burning and they are to hot to pick up although people have done this. They are burning for the simple fact the heat/flame is the method by which CS gas is delivered. OC can't be delivered this way because burning it renders it useless. Most likely there was a grenade or round available that might have done the job as well as the pyrotechnic grenade but in a situation where you are taking effective rifle fire from the perp you use what you know will work. I don't know about the LA County Sheriffs Dept. but my organization gives the offender 3 verbal warnings to comply or chemical agents and physical/lethal force will be used against them. If they choose to ignore those warnings then they have effectively taken the decision to use as much force as necessary out of our hands and placed it in their own. The fact that Beck was a former LEO would provide him with the knowledge of chemical agents, their delivery systems and the SOP's for non-compliant barricaded suspects. [blue]edited to say I'm not trying to defend the actions of the LEO's. I was just trying to shed some light on chemical agents/weapons and part of our protocol for deploying them. [/blue] |
|
for all guys defending the LEO here remember this. They did not have the search warrant on site. Last i knew you were under no obligation to cooperate with a search until they produce a warrant. By the ATF's own admision the warrant was sealed at another location. I would have most likely refused them entry as well until the warrant was produced.
Beck most likely was a dirtbag. But he was not killed for being a criminal he was killed for resisting an illeagal search. Yes he is to blame as well but LEO are the proffesionals and seemed to have skirted the law. mike |
|
Quoted: for all guys defending the LEO here remember this. They did not have the search warrant on site. Last i knew you were under no obligation to cooperate with a search until they produce a warrant. By the ATF's own admision the warrant was sealed at another location. I would have most likely refused them entry as well until the warrant was produced. Beck most likely was a dirtbag. But he was not killed for being a criminal he was killed for resisting an illeagal search. Yes he is to blame as well but LEO are the proffesionals and seemed to have skirted the law. mike View Quote Well they told the media the warrant wasn't on scene, does that mean it wasn't there when they atttempted the search?? Are you saying if LEO's call and tell you they have a search warrant you should wait until they approach your house and open fire?? Then you yell that they didn't serve the warrant and were trying to violate your rights?? I keep seeing on this site that the "dynamic entry" is not an AR15.com approved method. Posts keep saying LEO's should talk to people in a rational manner. If they have a warrant to serve they should knock on the persons door and talk with them. They called him and asked him to come out, he started shooting. Did he start shooting because of LE tactics or did he realize if they executed the warrant they would find evidince that could be the basis of multiple criminal charges?? How should LE serve warrants you guys are good at pointing out stuff that doesn't work, what would have? First person that says wait until he leaves the house and [red]"pick him up"[/red] gets a dunce cap. This was a [red]search warrant[/red] it doesn't give LEO's the authority to detain anyone. |
|
Quoted: How should LE serve warrants you guys are good at pointing out stuff that doesn't work, what would have? First person that says wait until he leaves the house and [red]"pick him up"[/red] gets a dunce cap. This was a [red]search warrant[/red] it doesn't give LEO's the authority to detain anyone. View Quote How bout wait till he leaves and search the house? Before you bring up it may be policy to execute the warrant while is there, I know the ATF has no requirement for the person to be home as there is at least one account of a collector coming home and finding his door off the hinges, his safes cut open, weapons tossed into a pile in the house (many rare pieces damaged as they were tossed, apparently across the room) and a note that simply said "nothing found-ATF" As bad as that was, they at least avoided confrontation. |
|
There may be state or federal law related to the warrant service or there may be USMS policy. Or that could have been specified by the issuing Court/Judge. I don't know I'm theorizing.
If the shepard was an actual trained service dog they wouldn't have gotten into the house without Beck present or shooting the dog. Perhaps again the USMS was trying to be reasonable and didn't want to use any force, even against the dog, if they didn't HAVE to. Again guessing, theorizing. |
|
oly,
Are you really this big of an idiot or do you only play one on ar15.com? [:)] The atf agent was interviewed at the scene during the standoff. Therefore i assume the warrant was NEVER on scene. I don't think they made a special run to return the warrant to the office. If they did not present a warrant then as far as he knew there was not one. If a police officer came to your door tonight and wanted to search your house just because he felt like it would you let him? No it was not right to open fire. That was his mistake. But if the situation were on my privately owned property i would certanly have resisted until a warrant was delivered. They are the Police for gods sake. They are supposed to know the law. Try reading the constitution and then think about the warrant issue again. mike |
|
Quoted: But I thought they started the fires themselves.[rooleyes] View Quote Yes, 1) If they were being fired on, deadly force, they may have felt they were justified in firing pyrotechnic rounds. 2) That is after they had been shot at, a deputy killed, and negotiations had broken down. 3) I wonder about the choice of CS rounds myself. |
|
Striker said:
I wonder how many people here know what 1* even means! View Quote I don't. Wanna tell us? |
|
Quoted: oly, Are you really this big of an idiot or do you only play one on ar15.com? [:)] The atf agent was interviewed at the scene during the standoff. Therefore i assume View Quote the warrant was NEVER on scene. I don't think they made a special run to return the warrant to the office. If they did not present a warrant then as far as he knew there was not one. View Quote If a police officer came to your door tonight and wanted to search your house just because he felt like it would you let him? View Quote No it was not right to open fire. That was his mistake. But if the situation were on my privately owned property i would certanly have resisted until a warrant was delivered. View Quote They are the Police for gods sake. They are supposed to know the law. Try reading the constitution and then think about the warrant issue again. mike View Quote Constituion should alway be capitalized. [red]Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. [/red] Don't see a right to commit crimes or shoot people. The right to be secure, says UNREASONALBE searches. Let's see felon with guns pretending to be a USMS officer, that sounds like the basis of a REASONABLE search Where does it say that a warrant must be present?? |
|
Guys, especially LEO's, thanks for the info on the various devices used in barricade situations. I have increased my knowledge and that is always a good thing. I did not, however, intend this to be a continuation of the damned Beck pissing match. How about we all just agree everybody screwed up, has culpability, and two lives have been lost, one more "guilty" (probably) than the other, by far. Beck was not a 2nd Amendment martyr, the LEO was NOT a JBT. I now see the legitimacy of using devices which could easily start a fire when it will likely save innocent lives, even at the expense of the life of the perpetrator. I got what I wanted from this thread and am going to delete it later tonight if the Beck stuff continues, as I was not referring specifically to him. Sorry, but I am weary of the same crap being thrown at each other. Got to get back to work.
|
|
oly j/k kidding with the idiot crack you have made some very valid points. I still say if they had no warrant they had no right to approach his property. What is wrong with them following the law. YES HE F'ed up. Yes that's what made him dead.
If they had waited 30 min until the warrant was on site this situation would be different in my opinion. |
|
Quoted: Guys, especially LEO's, thanks for the info on the various devices used in barricade situations. I have increased my knowledge and that is always a good thing. I did not, however, intend this to be a continuation of the damned Beck pissing match. How about we all just agree everybody screwed up, has culpability, and two lives have been lost, one more "guilty" (probably) than the other, by far. Beck was not a 2nd Amendment martyr, the LEO was NOT a JBT. I now see the legitimacy of using devices which could easily start a fire when it will likely save innocent lives, even at the expense of the life of the perpetrator. I got what I wanted from this thread and am going to delete it later tonight if the Beck stuff continues, as I was not referring specifically to him. Sorry, but I am weary of the same crap being thrown at each other. Got to get back to work. View Quote WELL SAID. Thanks for the voice of reason. Now butt out oly and I aren't done bitching yet. [:)] mike |
|
Quoted: If a police officer came to your door tonight and wanted to search your house just because he felt like it would you let him? View Quote View Quote Another favorite LEO attitude I see too much of, anyone who doesn't consent to a search without probable cause must have something to hide, they couldn't just value thier rights[rolleyes]. (note this was a question not about Beck, but about what you would do.) |
|
Quoted: Striker said: I wonder how many people here know what 1* even means! View Quote I don't. Wanna tell us? View Quote I can't remember the name of the SWAT Officer who "coined" it for lack of a better word but it means 1[b]ass to risk[/b] (asterisk). My read on it is you as a member of a SWAT team,ER Team whatever have the right to risk your ass by your decisions or actions but not anyone elses. It has been awhile since I read the original article. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: If a police officer came to your door tonight and wanted to search your house just because he felt like it would you let him? View Quote View Quote Another favorite LEO attitude I see too much of, anyone who doesn't consent to a search without probable cause must have something to hide, they couldn't just value thier rights[rolleyes]. (note this was a question not about Beck, but about what you would do.) View Quote I said I didn't have anything to hide. People who resist a warrant may have something to hide. I have no problems with people asserting their Rights. EDIT: I'll add that LEO's should be aware of rights and be cognizant of their actions, in regards to people's Rights. LEO's should not be violating people's Rights either recklessly or knowingly. |
|
Thanks for clearing that up, your first post made it seem like you felt only folks who had something to hide would object to a warrantless search.
|
|
So what if they do have something to hide. I'd bet i could walk into any house in the country and find 10 things that could be construed to be illeagal for one purpose or another. I have nothing to hide either. They'd be more than welcome to search when they present the warrant. Until then they are abusing their authority and annoying the public.
I ask you again what is wrong with them following the laws they are upholding? If i came to your door tonight and presented a badge would you let me search your house just because i wanted? Once again beck was an idiot. But i still feel the leo/atf involved share at least 1/2 of the responsibility for both deaths. The death of both of those men could have been easily avoided by following proper procedures and planning. mike |
|
No matter how righteous the shooting SOMEONE will always "Monday Morning Quarterback" the scenario. I was not at the "Beck Incident" so I will comment on a shooting I DO KNOW THE FACTS ON and that raised some controversy over the out come.
Just before I joined the Dept. I'm with now they had a situation that a few citizens thought could have been handled different. Just before 17:00 on 11/10/98 a call came in to the Comm Center of a man walking through an area shooting at anything that moved and that several people had been shot. Units were dispatched, BUT the info on his location was "off". The first responding Unit drove past his location and received rifle fire from behind, Officer Brad Arn left a wife and two young daughters. The gunman was armed with a MAK-90, several 75 round drums and numerous 30 round magazines. As Officers continued to arrive on the scene, the gunman continued to fire at them and anything else he could find. Paramedics under fire moved in to help the wounded. All of the Officers on the scene knew that a fellow Officer was already dead but at that time there was no time to grieve. While HUNDREDS of rounds were being fired in their direction they tried to stop the gunman. One Officer quickly stood up from behind his Patrol Car and fired one round from his HK USP .45 killing the gunman at 47 yards away. In the aftermath of the shooting the Department was criticized for handcuffing a dead man (when he was handcuffed no one was sure he was dead), leaving him lay there too long, not taking him alive, not "taking him out" quick enough, etc., etc. The point is in a shooting the Media and "Joe Public" is going to crucify you no matter what way it was handled. The only thing a Department can do is to hold their head up and try and follow the S.O.P. You want us to be "Supermen" but we are not. Not that it matters to some of you (some will even enjoy this next comment) but Police Officers have one of the HIGHEST suicide rates in the country. Also one of the highest divorce rates. Meaningless statistics ? Tell that to my wife who was Dispatching one night and received this call: Dispatcher: 911, What is your emergency ? Caller: Lori ? Dispatcher: Yes, is this ************* ? Caller: Yeah, I just called to say goodbye. I can't handle it anymore...CLICK My wife hit the call-back button while Dispatching Officers, First Responders, and EMT's. The phone rang, and rang while another Dispatcher answered a call reporting that they had heard a gunshot. Or how about one of our Officers who showed up at his estranged wife's house at 05:00 Christmas morning, kneeled down in the front yard, stuck a gun in his mouth and ended his life. Yeah, we are ALL COLD-BLOODED KILLERS who are just waiting for a chance to "smoke" a gunowner. That is why after you do end someone's life no matter how "right" the shooting was, the DEMONS come to haunt you night after night. You replay the shooting over and over trying to figure out how you could handled it differently so no one had died. You can't talk to your Partner because he MUST have trust in your ability and know that you aren't falling apart. You can't talk to your wife because she would NOT understand what you are going through. And you sure as HELL can't discuss it with your Supervisor or Department "Shrink" because if you do your career is OVER !!! |
|
So one afternoon after the wife and kids have left for the mall you sit down in your chair with your sidearm and...................
Oh well, just another dead Cop who couldn't handle the job. He should have quit if it was too much for him to take. BTW, Striker. 1* is from Gary Paul Johnson who was with the Shaker Heights Ohio S.W.A.T. Unit. And yes, when I was Chief of a small Dept. I have sent Officers (and myself) in harms way. Monday Morning Quarterbacks, gotta luv em !!! Gunrunner [b]1*[/b] |
|
have you heard me say that killing beck was not justified if he was shooting? I don't think so. Nor do i think offing a dumbass activily shooting at leo's with a AK is wrong. The point is "when they arrived, according to the atf, they had no warrant." Therefore no authorization to search his residence. He opened fire, he is a dumbass. The LEO's in question were dumbasses for not properly serving a warrant and allowing him to set them up.
WTF does this have to do with your 2 shootings? I've worked ems and Public safety and taken fire while on duty. Hell i got shot at less in the army than i did in Mobile AL working EMS. The bottom line is whether beck was right or wrong the ATF FUCKED UP! For starters they should never have been there until after he was arrested for felony posseion of a firearm. State and local PD should have made the arrest and the ATF brought in after the fact for Federal charges. At least that is the way it should work. |
|
Dammit, Gunrunner--I never cry (except when my Grandfather and best-ever dog died), but I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes after reading your post. I don't know what else to say. I hope you understand John Q. Public (me) will never be able to fully comprehend this. Thank you so much for communicating it in a forthright, intelligent, touching manner. Thank you, Sir, and God bless you daily.
|
|
The_Beer_Slayer, my point AS I STATED is that no matter how we as Officers handle ourselves there are always going to be people telling us what we did WRONG !!!!
I WILL NOT COMMENT ANY FURTHER ON THE BECK SHOOTING AS I DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS !!!!!! And FACTS are not what the Media OR the Public are interested in. You are getting your "FACTS" from the Media, as an Officer I have a greater distrust of the Media than most people do. Again I posted what I KNEW to be the FACTS on an incident and how we were "tarred and feathered" when we did handle it by the book. I do not know whether the Officers in question had the warrant with them or not......DO YOU ??? Gunrunner |
|
for starters if an LEO makes a bad shoot then it is our "the lowly public" Duty to tar and feather the officer in question. The public at large ha s big distrust of you guys due to the number of bad shooting that have been made. I have no problem with a justified use of deadly force. But it seems the attitude of some leo's today is he's breathing therefore he is a threat. This is wrong. I've been in your shoes and i know first ahnd it is a very difficult job. I learned quickly it was not a career i wanted due to the amount of blatant corruption i saw first hand.
You guys that are LEO's with the local and state PD do an admirable job. There a few bad cops out there but most of the leo's i meet are decent people. As for the warrant yes i do know it was not there. The ATF stated that. |
|
Just a short note about this "sealed warrant" business........I do not, nor have I ever been employed by the Federal Government, but unless I am very mistaken it is fairly common practice for Federal search warrants, at least the affidavit (the part that the officer writes which contains all the facts that add up to that magic thing "probable cause" and swears to in front of the judge) is sealed, it is also not uncommon for a Federal Indictment to be sealed. In other words, there being a "sealed" warrant does not, in any way mean that there was not one nor that there was not a physical copy of a search warrant signed by a Federal Judge on the scene with the officers. The Federal system tends to work a little different than what most of us may be familiar with, for example......it is common for local law enforcement to make an arrest and sometime later the case goes before a Grand Jury for Indictment, in the Federal system a case or witnesses present information to a Federal Grand Jury and if there is an Indictment then the individual is arrested.
|
|
i understand the sealed warrant. But are they not supposed to have at least a copy of the search warrant to present? The agent in the interview stated the warrant was sealed and not on site.
I kinda got off on a tanget with the warrant issue. My biggest problem is with the handling of the whole situation. There had to be 100 better ways to handle that. mike |
|
The warrent issue is neither here nor there.
What is important is that the LACSO, showed a extreme lack of disipline. Once they heard one of their number was down they went completely to pieces. They started shooting at houses, not suspects- houses, and then they couldnt even get the right one. They fired into unevacuated houses on either side of the suspect even after the occupants had contacted 911 and told them they were there. Their indiscriminate shooting is what needs to be called into question first and foremost. I cant beleve that people here are fiddle farting around trying to make this sleezebag into another Randy Weaver. And I cant beleve that profesional LEO's find nothing wrong with the Deputies firinig blidly into houses almost hitting innocent civilians. You all need to get off your high horses and get into the real fucking world. |
|
Quoted: The warrent issue is neither here nor there. What is important is that the LACSO, showed a extreme lack of disipline. Once they heard one of their number was down they went completely to pieces. They started shooting at houses, not suspects- houses, and then they couldnt even get the right one. They fired into unevacuated houses on either side of the suspect even after the occupants had contacted 911 and told them they were there. Their indiscriminate shooting is what needs to be called into question first and foremost. View Quote Hmmm I wonder if other incidents could be found that would show a loss of "control" or a "he(or they) is as good as dead now" attitude following the loss of an officer?(other than Ruby Ridge). 2 well known ones in about two months, how many didn't make the news or didn't get published? Losing one of your own has to be a difficult thing, but is no excuse for that kind of misconduct. Perhaps it is something that LEO's should be better trained and prepared for to aviod this kind of incident, or better policies could be in place. How much training is typically given to dealing with the immediate death of a co-worker? Yep, I am a Monday morning Quaterback, but deal with it. When you have the power to go out and kill with government authority, you better damm well believe you are gonna get second guessed when someone dies. If we didn't, we wouldn't be responsible citizens. Its part of the balance of power. Just like when we, as citizens, are forced to take a life in self defense, we too will be second guesed.... many times by the police. |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.