So What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Iraq?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - So What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Iraq? (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 8/18/2006 9:48:05 PM EDT

1.A stable government left behind with little or no insurgernt or in fighting?

2.or the above with some American military forces present?

3. or some other senario?

Posted: 8/18/2006 9:49:44 PM EDT

[#1]

3. We've had enough "peacekeeping" for one decade and let them implode.

Posted: 8/18/2006 10:14:37 PM EDT

[#2]

We can basically declare "victory" any time we want:

1. Saddam not in power? Check.
2. No WMD? Check.
3. Democratically elected government? Check.

At some point, this or a future president will basically just say we are done, and withdraw the bulk of our troops, regardless of the status of the insurgency. The political brownie points are basically just going to run out.

Posted: 8/18/2006 10:18:29 PM EDT

[#3]

when I fucking say so that's when

Posted: 8/18/2006 10:20:59 PM EDT

[#4]

When the loss can be attributed to the "cut and run" cowards instead of the "stay the course" clueless.

Posted: 8/18/2006 10:21:27 PM EDT

[#5]

Depends on who can make mileage declaring it a "victory" or a "loss." If the psychopathics on the Left continue to be cast from the seat of power like they have been for the past decade, I suspect that they will continue their tantrum in declaring everything America does to be "evil," "capitalist," "neo-con," "Hitler-esque," or any of 10,000 spurious and insane charges they levy upon our great nation - when they're not busy trying to rule it by burning churches full of children.

Posted: 8/18/2006 10:23:55 PM EDT

[#6]

When we say

"We won!"

And then we leave.

What a "stable" .gov in a third world country like
Iraq qualifies as is one that will not only find an "insurgent"...They'll
kill him slowly, while letting him watch his wife, children, mother, father
and siblings die in pain in front of him.

They'll start with his freinds then.

We have no idea how to deal with people like this,
and we don't have the will as a country to do what needs to
be done. There is a question of whether it's worth doing, as
well. I like the sound of Iraqi glass, myself...When it gets to the point where
we have to do that.

Posted: 8/18/2006 10:36:40 PM EDT

[#7]

We technically have already reached the point of victory, with Saddam & sons gone, and Iraq forming an autonomous government. I personally think total victory can be declared when Iraqi forces reach the full capacity to fend for themselves, i.e., when they literally don't need us fighting off insurgents for them any more. At that point we have finished our job successfully. Unfortunately, I really can't comment on the effectiveness of Iraq's police/military since I have no first-hand knowledge, but from what I've read the Iraqi police is in pretty terrible shape.

Posted: 8/18/2006 10:49:28 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

And then we leave.

That's the thing that always get me about these types of Iraq conversations. When does the US leave a country whose ass we kick? We set up permanent bases for stability and for force projection. It's our MO and I think it's a good thing.

Exit strategy my ass.

Posted: 8/19/2006 7:31:26 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
when I fucking say so that's when

Posted: 8/19/2006 7:36:05 PM EDT

[#10]

When Wal-Mart, KFC and The Gap open stores/franchises there.

Posted: 8/19/2006 7:38:39 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
when I fucking say so that's when

Brilliant

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:38:25 PM EDT

[#12]

Well… that is the million dollar question these days.

In our modern times, personally I think the economic approach is best.
I thus agree with:

Quoted:
When Wal-Mart, KFC and The Gap open stores/franchises there.

Though many of us here are gun toting red blooded Americans, the American public/culture simply will not settle for the historically tested and proven kill everybody and take over technique.

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:42:27 PM EDT

[#13]

when all the bad guys get deaded

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:42:30 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
.....when they (Liberals) are not busy trying to rule it (the U.S.A) by burning churches full of children.

ETA: Nevermind, what could I possibly hope to accomplish anyway?

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:42:42 PM EDT

[#15]

When was 'victory' declared in Korea?

Sometimes, wars are waged not to 'win', but simply because not fighting them would have even worse consequences.

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:45:10 PM EDT

[#16]

Originally Posted By Skibane

Sometimes, wars are waged not to 'win'

Yup, seems to be the idea.

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:49:26 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
When was 'victory' declared in Korea?

Sometimes, wars are waged not to 'win', but simply because not fighting them would have even worse consequences.

Going to war without an objective is a sure recipe for defeat. To me, we accomplished the objectives we stated at the outset of the war.

We're now fighting another war to build a "stable democracy" in Iraq.

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:50:10 PM EDT

[#18]

Whenever we leave it will be reported as a loss for us and a victory for islam just wait for it, they will be dancing in the streets!!(or embroiled in a civil war then its our fault anyway!) not that I would like it at all mind you.

Posted: 8/19/2006 8:52:37 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Sometimes, wars are waged not to 'win'.

Then what is it waged for, your halfway to saying something that won't go over well with most of the membership of this site. I.E. Why go to war if you don't intend to win, who or what could it possibly benefit? I can't answer that question for you, but most of you should be able to figure it out on your own anyway.

Posted: 8/19/2006 9:26:21 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Going to war without an objective is a sure recipe for defeat.

Sometimes, the 'objective' is containment, not total victory.

If you insist that total victory is the only valid goal of any war, then by your definition, we 'lost' the Korean war.

I'd wager that roughly 48 million South Koreans would disagree with that assessment.

Posted: 8/19/2006 9:48:32 PM EDT

[#21]

Victory is something that you feel proud of after it's over. If you don't feel pride it isn't a victory regardless of how it's defined.

Posted: 8/19/2006 9:48:54 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Going to war without an objective is a sure recipe for defeat.

Sometimes, the 'objective' is containment, not total victory.

If you insist that total victory is the only valid goal of any war, then by your definition, we 'lost' the Korean war.

I'd wager that roughly 48 million South Koreans would disagree with that assessment.

Containment was our stated objective and it appears to be holding, for the moment. However, that war is not over by a long shot.

Posted: 8/19/2006 10:00:24 PM EDT

[#23]

1Andy2 has it correct. Our stated goal is turning Iraq in to a democracy. It is not that the war was not waged to win; it's that we have an unattainable goal. We ideologically embark to change an entire culture and values of a people who we can't even speak the same language of.

We would be wise to change our goals to save face. This does not mean pulling out, just changing our objectives.

Posted: 8/19/2006 10:06:15 PM EDT

[#24]

There will be no victory in Iraq as long as Bush refuses to close the Iranian and Syrian borders. A never-ending supply of terrorists, arms, explosives and money continues to pour into Iraq from Iran and Syria.

The best solution is to take out Iran and Syria, but Bush doesn't have the balls to do it.

Posted: 8/19/2006 10:15:26 PM EDT

[#25]

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Germany?

VE day was 5/8/45, zillions of dollars and some 61 years later we are still there.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Japan?

VJ day was 8/15/45, zillions of dollars and 61 years later we are still there.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Korea?

Armistice was declared on 6/25/50, zillions on zillions of dollars and 56 years later we are still there.

And did we ever declare any objective in any of these wars?

The only difference between the above listed and Iraq is we now have the liberal media and the mouth breathing lefties starring as domestic enemies. Weak left administrations cost us in the 60's and they will cost us again now. Anything they can do to subvert a war campaign will be done, they know no shame, nor support any assertive action against anyone for any reason, and have no problems pissing on the graves of our brave warriors. They will be the downfall of us yet.

Posted: 8/20/2006 10:44:41 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
when I fucking say so that's when

Genius pure genius.

Posted: 8/20/2006 11:07:10 AM EDT

[#27]

DnPRK

There will be no victory in Iraq as long as Bush refuses to close the Iranian and Syrian borders. A never-ending supply of terrorists, arms, explosives and money continues to pour into Iraq from Iran and Syria.

+100 agree

Posted: 8/20/2006 11:39:56 AM EDT

[#28]

Posted: 8/20/2006 11:44:44 AM EDT

[#29]

A shiney new field of glass.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:32:23 PM EDT

[#30]

17 Muslims sniped today. I think it is going pretty well.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:38:20 PM EDT

[#31]

Find the WMD's or prove they were destroyed/never existed.
Democratically elected Iraqi government, allied to the US.
No insurgency.
Full withdrawal of US troops.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:42:05 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Germany?

VE day was 5/8/45, zillions of dollars and some 61 years later we are still there.

We won when germany surrendered.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Japan?

VJ day was 8/15/45, zillions of dollars and 61 years later we are still there.

We won when Japan surrenderred.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Korea?

Armistice was declared on 6/25/50, zillions on zillions of dollars and 56 years later we are still there.

We lost when we stopped wagin war on the communist north koreans.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:46:40 PM EDT

[#33]

"Victory" and therefore "redeployment" of troops will occur when enough US troops are killed.

That's the bottom line, nothing else. There is no other condition that matters.

When enough US service men and women have died for abosolutely nothing, we will leave.

And not one 6 foot long ziploc sooner.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:46:42 PM EDT

[#34]

So if a surrender of a government is a win, then the capture of the head of state and most of his henchmen and complete collapse of his government is a victory as well.

By your measure, we did indeed already win the war.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:47:50 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
When enough US service men and women have died for abosolutely nothing, we will leave.

And not one 6 foot long ziploc sooner.

Youve bounced off the headboard of your truck too damn long.

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:49:17 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
1.A stable government left behind with little or no insurgernt or in fighting?

2.or the above with some American military forces present?

3. or some other senario?

Any exit that does not involve crowds of people busting down the gates to the Green Zone or helicoptors being dumped into large bodies of water during a hasty retreat . . .

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:50:22 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Germany?

VE day was 5/8/45, zillions of dollars and some 61 years later we are still there.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Japan?

VJ day was 8/15/45, zillions of dollars and 61 years later we are still there.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Korea?

Armistice was declared on 6/25/50, zillions on zillions of dollars and 56 years later we are still there.

And did we ever declare any objective in any of these wars?

The only difference between the above listed and Iraq is we now have the liberal media and the mouth breathing lefties starring as domestic enemies. Weak left administrations cost us in the 60's and they will cost us again now. Anything they can do to subvert a war campaign will be done, they know no shame, nor support any assertive action against anyone for any reason, and have no problems pissing on the graves of our brave warriors. They will be the downfall of us yet.

www.fotogblog.com/uploaded_images/WPN%20cindy%20sheehan-746467.jpg

Good post...

Posted: 8/20/2006 3:59:39 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
When enough US service men and women have died for abosolutely nothing, we will leave.

And not one 6 foot long ziploc sooner.

Youve bounced off the headboard of your truck too damn long.

Then please, elaborate on what else is possible to happen?

The only way the civil war in Iraq will end, is if the nation is divided up into 3 separate states , one for each of the major factions.

And the only way we will ever pull out is when there is enough call on the homefront for it to happen. Enough Congresscritters are going to get enough letters, and the funding will be cut for this operation.

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:01:22 PM EDT

[#39]

Dude, did you not get the "mission accomplished" memo... It's over we won.

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:02:14 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Germany?

VE day was 5/8/45, zillions of dollars and some 61 years later we are still there.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Japan?

VJ day was 8/15/45, zillions of dollars and 61 years later we are still there.

What Will Be the Definition of Victory in Korea?

Armistice was declared on 6/25/50, zillions on zillions of dollars and 56 years later we are still there.

And did we ever declare any objective in any of these wars?

The only difference between the above listed and Iraq is we now have the liberal media and the mouth breathing lefties starring as domestic enemies. Weak left administrations cost us in the 60's and they will cost us again now. Anything they can do to subvert a war campaign will be done, they know no shame, nor support any assertive action against anyone for any reason, and have no problems pissing on the graves of our brave warriors. They will be the downfall of us yet.

www.fotogblog.com/uploaded_images/WPN%20cindy%20sheehan-746467.jpg

Good post...

As a matter of fact, we DID declare an objective in those wars.

UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER of our enemy.

But now, we are too prissy assed PC for that to happen. Can't hurt too many feelings, you know.

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:03:56 PM EDT

[#41]

When we finally get a statesman as a commander in chief and not a politician -- and several Iraqi cities are smoking rubble as the only way to achieve victory is to destroy the enemy's will to fight (and the enemy's popular support).

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:06:04 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
When we finally get a statesman as a commander in chief and not a politician -- and several Iraqi cities are smoking rubble as the only way to achieve victory is to destroy the enemy's will to fight (and the enemy's popular support).

Dude, carpet bombing was last week.

The good folks that come here to ARFCOM felt it was too brutal. The prefer kinder and gentler.

I always wonder what happened to "Give us your hearts and minds, or we'll burn down your damn village!"

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:11:37 PM EDT

[#43]

I think we already have our victory. There is just a couple of loose ends to tie up.

1. Saddam captured (just needs to be executed)
2. Democratic gov't set up
3. IMHO the Iraqi Army is sufficient to stand on their own. (but why should they while we are there)

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:20:13 PM EDT

[#44]

It seems a lot of us want to blame a potential "defeat" in Iraq on the liberal left. As annoying and hurtful as they can be, the responsibility of waging this war lies squarely on those policy makers and elected officials that initially began operations, planning, etc... Planning on being received as "liberators" with parades and such and thinking it was going to be a cakewalk has proven to be a total miscalculation on their part. It is these powers that be that better make sure we are victorious. I won't just shift the blame to the perceived "left wing media" as a reason for losing (if we actually do "lose", I'm still optimistic), it is the current administration that is ultimately calling the shots over there and it will be their fault if everything goes totally wrong.

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:24:21 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
We lost when we stopped wagin war on the communist north koreans.

That's a novel little bit of revisionism -

In which Bizzaro universe did South Korea fall?

And how many millions of South Koreans were slaughtered or fled the country when it fell?

At what point did Korea become a unified, Communistic superpower?

At what point was this superpower successful in exporting its Communism to other nearby nations?

At what point did this superpower start producing enough food to keep its own people from starving to death?

At what point did this superpower become a world-class manufacturer of electronics, automobiles and military hardware?

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:31:17 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
When enough US service men and women have died for abosolutely nothing, we will leave.

And not one 6 foot long ziploc sooner.

Youve bounced off the headboard of your truck too damn long.

Then please, elaborate on what else is possible to happen?

Why dont you start by having some fucking respect for our dead warriors.

nothing?

ziploc?

Is there a restraint emoticon?

Posted: 8/20/2006 4:44:31 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
When enough US service men and women have died for abosolutely nothing, we will leave.

And not one 6 foot long ziploc sooner.

Youve bounced off the headboard of your truck too damn long.

Then please, elaborate on what else is possible to happen?

Why dont you start by having some fucking respect for our dead warriors.

nothing?

ziploc?

Is there a restraint emoticon?

Well... I guess I could come up with something more descriptive but... wait... the DoD has forbid the press photographing flag draped caskets at Dover AFB because it won't sit well with the public.

And you can sell that "Fighting for our rights and freedom" somewhere else. At no point did the invasion of Iraq ensure that future generations of consumers would be able to contribute tax revenues to the Federal coffers.

This spilling of American blood in no way furthers the liberty or freedom they signed up to protect and defend.

If Iraqi's want a free Iraq bad enough, let them take it.