[url]www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2001/sep/02/090207179.html[/url]

September 02, 2001

               Report: Confusion in Warrant Shooting

               SANTA CLARITA, Calif.- Confusion among officers
               involved in an armed standoff may have led to the
               shooting not only of the suspect but of a fellow lawman,
               The Los Angeles Times reported Sunday.

               An investigation into Friday's shootout with James
               Allen Beck has raised the question of whether Beck
               fired the bullet that killed Los Angeles County sheriff's
               Deputy Hagop "Jake" Kuredjian or whether the officer
               mistakenly was hit by a fellow law enforcement officer.

               [b]"I am quite sure that is something we're going to look
               into, because it's not clear he was shot by Beck,"
               sheriff's Sgt. Paul Patterson told The Associated
               Press in an interview Sunday.[/b]

               The standoff began Friday morning when federal
               officers and sheriff's officials tried to serve a search
               warrant at Beck's home in an upscale section of this
               city 22 miles north of Los Angeles.

               Autopsy results Saturday showed Kuredjian died of a
               single gunshot wound to the head. He had been struck
               while crouching behind an SUV parked on the street
               four houses down from Beck, the Times reported.

               Beck, a convicted felon, was alleged to have
               impersonated a U.S. marshal and be building a
               weapons cache. As authorities approached, Beck
               began shooting at officers from the U.S. Marshal's
               office and U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
               Firearms.

               Kuredjian arrived a few minutes after the shooting
               started and was hit almost immediately while trying to
               provide gunfire as cover to fellow deputies pinned
               down in the fusillade, the Times reported.

               The exchange of gunfire startled neighbors, especially
               those who saw officers firing at the wrong house.

               "I hollered out the window, 'You're shooting at the
               wrong house!'" said one neighbor, who spoke to the
               Times on condition of anonymity. "They must have
               heard us or something, because I could hear one of
               the deputies say, 'Is it the house with the Explorer?'
               And another guy says, 'No, the one next to it.'"

(continued)


               Homes on either side of Beck's house were riddled
               with bullet holes, including one where a couple and
               their 30-hour-old newborn cowered.

               "Three bullets came through the (front) window, the
               master closets and into the master bathroom," said
               Phil Lombardi, the baby's father. He described how
               he, his wife and baby, took cover in a second floor
               bathroom.

               "It was very traumatic. My wife wasn't coping with it. I
               was trying to comfort her with the newborn child," he
               said.

               The total number of rounds fired was unclear and
               authorities would not give an estimate.

               "It was a very extensive gun battle. We have to wait to
               see what was collected at scene," sheriff's Sgt.
               Patterson said.

               The three-hour exchange ended after tear gas
               projectiles were shot into Beck's house and a fire
               erupted. Flames quickly engulfed the home, burning it
               to the ground. But authorities were still unclear how the
               fire began.

               "It's probably going to be a little more difficult, because
               of the extent of the fire," Patterson said. "They'll have
               to sift through evidence to determine how the fire was
               actually started."

               Investigators discovered a body believed to be
               Beck's. But the coroner's office said an autopsy would
               not be conducted until Tuesday, at the earliest.

               An AK-47 and AR-15, a shotgun, a .380-caliber
               semiautomatic pistol, handguns and ammunition were
               collected from the ashes.

The BATF killing fellow officers?  Never happen.

I'm not an expert but it should be easy to figure out if one of Beck's guns was the one that killed the officer.  I questioned this in another thread yesterday.  Mainly because the LEO was crouching behind a car and 4 houses away.  So the distance was about 75-100 yards away or more, plus it was a head shot!  

Now I know we are all great shooters and all, but it is a lot harder to shoot accurately when you are under a lot of stress while others are shooting back at you.

If the cops had a hard time even hitting the correct house then it is entirely possible that a ricoche (sp?) or bad shot hit their own guy.

Eather way Beck will be blamed for it, because the LA LEO's and the ATF will never admit the truth about what really happened. Already they are blaming each other that the whole thing went so bad.

On the plus side this story is not going away and lots of people are asking the right questions.

sgtar15

Naw.... could never happen.

All that would be just be too much crap.  Could never happen.  

Besides, I saw Beck working with Elvis at a Quickie Mart in Billings Montana.  I don't know who the hell they dug outta the ashes with that "arsenal".  Soooooo many firearms.  Must've been evil.  Anyway, that couldn't have been Beck.

...and it never will be.

Since when is a .380 such a big deal?

Oh yes, it's a semi-automatic.

Let's see the "alleged" stockpile.

Notice that they don't even know who started the fire.

Everything the ATF touches goes to shit.

Yea, we noticed.

We noticed that the cops killer is in question.  Who started the fire is in question. Why the neighbors were all shot up is in question.  And last but not least the biggest question of them all..... "how many rifles makes an arsenal".

No, this is just too much insanity to talk about without 100% pure sarcasm.

It's almost as it the ATF knows what the media is looking for...

"I hollered out the window, 'You're shooting at the
wrong house!'" said one neighbor, who spoke to the
Times on condition of anonymity. "They must have
heard us or something, because I could hear one of
the deputies say, 'Is it the house with the Explorer?'
And another guy says, 'No, the one next to it.'"


The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight...

And to think there are those here who will defend these people.

Maybe we should interview Mr. Beck-Oh that's right he is a crispy critter.[pissed]

Don't you just love it?

Goddammit we need John Stossel on it!

Just saw it on Fox News.  It was just a short blurb though.

I second the Stossel nomination.

Were it not so tragic this would alomost be funny.  Like a slap stick comedy.  Truth IS stranger than fiction - who could think up such a stupid, incompetent bunch?  Hard to believe Beck was unable to get EVEN ONE of the enemy!  The LE types use of weapons was WAY out of line - shooting the wrong house (occupied, even), shooting up areas way off target, setting fire and then letting Beck's house burn.  These incompetents make me ashamed to pay taxes to support them.

This merely adds to the idea that ALL federal "police" should be disarmed - for good!  Time to return law enforcement to the state level, and I DON'T mean "state police" but rather local PD and Sheriff.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Feds got the Deputy killed; no matter WHO shot him.  As usual, the WRONG people got capped.  A murderer will contuinue to walk the streets behind a badge, IMHO.  I shed a tear for my country over this.

Too bad they didn't open up with that M60. I think then Beck would would have come out, but there wouldn't be any cops left to surrender to.

Imbroglio, there would have been the cop on the M60 itself, but I am quite sure that his training involved something like Taping the trigger back and leaping in front of the muzzle between rounds, as all good supermen would do.

It is sad to think that the gestapo can come to any one of our houses kill our families, then when we defend ourselves and a few of them die, we get held responsible.  Sad what this country has come to.

Here's yet another reason NOT to fear a general confiscation of weapons by armed groups of gov't BHT. How many times will this scenario be played out in numerous neighborhoods?

How many 'Phil Lombardis' will have their next- door-'wrong'-homes shot up during such raids?

The BHTs may be able to take a few, but with sympathetic fire (or friendly fire?) coming from neighbors (or fellow officers?), this particular tactic will be short-lived IMHO. Very short-lived, indeed! [b]Confusion will run riot in the streets![/b]

Check out this little piece by A. Solzhenitsyn-

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking:  What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether they would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand....The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
..............................................
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, [i]The Gulag Archipelago[/i].

You see, it has happened before. And it will be [b]attempted[/b] again, have no doubt.

Eric The(ThinkAboutIt)Hun[>]:)]

What did you all expect?

Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

This says it all.  And just were or A2car,, SGB and the others??  I would be real interested on their take on this.  Wonder how long the blue wall will stay together on this one.

sgtar15

Don't worry we are still here.  I, like everyone else here, will be quite interested to see what happens regarding this.  

jadams951, just don't take any of our critism personnly.  We are all in the same boat after all.

sgtar15

[b]MOUT training at it's finest![/b]
Dump suppressive fire into the suspect building. Since it's suppressive fire, you don't even need a target!

Whoops, wrong building!

I think the neighbors should have started shooting back!

Are you suggesting that all those names on the Vietnam Memorial of men and women killed by "friendly fire" were a bunch of jerkoffs?

Does it really matter if the Deputy was shot accidentally or intentionally? The felony murder rule would apply in either case. This rule of law says ANY death occurring as a result of commission of a crime (shooting at police) is a murder.

More importantly, that Deputy Sheriff had a wife and kid and wasn't planning on dying on that call. He wasn't part of the original warrant service, but responded when the shooting began.

If you've never stood in the line of fire as an LEO when an incident goes downhill you have no idea how confusing and intense the situation can be.

It really doesn't matter (I repeat) who shot him. He's dead as the result of the actions of a convicted felon and that's a tragedy for his family and fellow officers. Have a little compassion for a guy who probably wasn't all that much different than you.

Fight4yourrights, if the neighbors started shooting back, then the LEO's in their infinite wisdom would have just enlarged the radius of fire and sent a few fire bombs into their houses.  

Of course if the neighbors stood back from the window so as not to give any signature and picked them off slowly, it could have been blamed on the first patsy.

{edited for spelling...arghh.]

Dingo, I can't believe that you actually wrote:  [b]It really doesn't matter (I repeat) who shot him[/b]!!!  Truely amazing!!!

It does matter because there are people in this country that think only cops should have guns because they "undergo training and know how to use them safely".  Since when does safety mean shooting a fellow police officer??

sgtar15

With limited facts, it appears that the COPS are to blame for killing one of their own.  Then, in a pissed off rage, they set the guys house on fire and burn him out.  

2 people died.  Both deaths appear to have been avoidable.  Both deaths appear related to police rambo tactics.

Heck, we just had that shootout in Lubbock TX where the SWAT guys got in a firefight with each other and killed one of their own.  The suspect, who was shot in the process, wasn't even armed!  Would you charge him with the officer's death?  Wasn't his fault.  It wasn't his fault the SWAT were stupid enough to fire teargas into a window, when the other SWAT team hears the sound they panic and open up full auto.

Why should the civilian be held responsible for friendly fire deaths?  This guy hasn't been proven guilty of anything.  They suspected him of stockpiling.  So far we've seen one bolt action ;rifle.

So you want to burn him out and them blame him for the Keystone Kops shooting each other?

This ain't the United States anymore.

[b]An AK-47 and AR-15, a shotgun, a .380-caliber semiautomatic pistol, handguns and ammunition were collected from the ashes. [/b]

Wait a friggen second here! The news showed the semiauto pistol (slide locked back) and a bolt action rifle's action (stock burned away, I presume) with a scope on top.  Where are the pictures of the AK, the AR and the shotgun?  I think someone is giving out wrong info.

Kharn

Raf, the short term consequneces would be, the LEO's would have burned down his house also, and killed anyone who had the affrontery to defend themselves.

The long erm consequneces would be, the LEO's woudl investigate themselves and after much soul searching would come to the conclusion that while unfortunate that the day care center next door was burned down and all 65 kids shot as they made a break from the fire riddled building, it was neccessary to ensure that the LEO's could get home to their loving wives and loving family and of course their loving pet dog.

Of course, no charges would be forthcoming, as they expressed the requisite remorse for the TV cameras.

Sgtar15, I agree my phrasing of "it doesn't matter" was not good. Having been on one side of a house with my AR and having 2 other LEO on the other side in a felony pursuit situation myself could have led to me being shot. It's a risk that LEOs take. No, I wouldn't want to shot either by the perp or a fellow officer, however, if I was the fault would not be with the fellow officer, but with the perp. The felony murder rule is clear on this.

Hell, I'm still waiting for them to find the so called "automatic" weapons that he had in his possession.

And a "scope" on a rifle? OHMYGOD!  Anybody who puts a scope on a rifle must be a sniper!

There is no right to self defense against themight and force of the government.  That is no defense.

Also, I do no think that the LEO's would have the sense to withdraw and regroup, they would just open up with their M60 (loved them parading that throught the streets, if anything begs for a sniper round it is the guy sitting behind the trigger of that thing) and neutralize the threat.

This isn't about common snese or anything cerebral like that, this is about force andtheir absolute beleif that they have the right to use whatever force neccessary to get *you* to bend to their will.  Anything less is unacceptable to them.

Isn't it nice how thy come up with things liuke "felony muurder rule" to shift blame and responsibility from the killers to the people they are trying to apply force to?

What a clusterf##k...it really shouldn't surprise us though based on the past of these guys.  The thing that really pisses me off is the fact that one of the reasons they were there in the first place is that he was "building a weapons cache".  What the hell of a reason is that?  Where is the law that limits how many weapons one can have?  Just how many constitutes a cache??  What a bunch of crap!

Raf...raf...Raf.  WHo woudl be doing the investigating of the incident here?  Yup, if not the LEO's themselves, the District Attorneys then.  They would do a complete investigationa nd find that everyone but the police were culpable, including the baby who had made a furtive gesture with one of it's pudgy paws, which to the 15 machine gun toting LEO's looked like he was going for a concealed piece in his pampers.

Of course they had to blast him, They had to get home safely to feed sparky that night!

Isn't it interesting how the sequence of events has changed from "The deputy and the ATF agent knocked on the door and Beck immediately shot the deputy in the face" to "The gunfight was already underway when the deputy showed up, four houses away, and after taking cover behind an SUV, was shot by Beck".  With that many LEO's pumping rounds into his house and others, I think it was an amazing feat for Beck to be able to pick the deputy out and execute him.

The full story is not yet out though, so I will refrain from completing the formation of my opinion.

They would all shit in their depends if they saw my cache.  Of course, to all the good friends ofours lurkers out there, my father taught me to never keep my cache where I live.

What do they think friends are for?

It feels to me that they have to but tighten the screws jsut a bit more and things will start popping at a greater rate.

Gus, don't hold your breath on getting anything but what they want you to get and what will increase their chances of getting more funding.

What, you think thermite grenades come cheap?

Raf, these are different times.  Government can not allow these things to happen any longer.  It is much easier to kill the people who might raise questions as to your use of force then to take them in and go through the whole trial thing.

Cynical?  Not even a little bit.  Realistic, yes.

LOL!  The last sentence of my post was definitely sarcasm...

Thermite teargas cans..... that's funny in a way.

This whole situation smells.

Do I think the LEOs will face retribution for any mistakes (or crimes they committed during the shootout)?

NO!

They are above the law and everybody here knows this. Ever see a cop go the speed limit? Who's gonna pull HIM over? You? Me? Yeah, right.

This sucks, pure and simple. Cops win, civvies lose.

Here's my question about this.  If he was a felon, how in the heck did he ever make it into service as a police officer?  He wasn't fired for being a felon, so what's up with that?  He was fired for not getting along with his fellow officers.  What's more, now that we are all wondering whether he actually shot that deputy as the newscasts initially said he did, why should we believe that he was a felon also?  Maybe the BATF was there to serve a felony impersonation warrant, but he would still be innocent until proven guilty right?  I want proof that he was a VIOLENT felon before I give a crap about anything the media says about Beck.

Heilo made a good point about the man theoretically protecting his wife and newborn baby.  Had he taken action to defend his wife and child, wouldn't that be self defense?  Let's say for arguement's sake that the neighbor was a trained marine sniper who was on leave when the SHTF.  After making certain that his wife and child were in a safe spot, he goes to his bedroom closet and takes out his .308 deer rifle and proceeds to cut down the people that have repeatedly shot into his house with intent to kill anything moving.  I'm certain that he would be labled as a sympathizer and cohort of Beck's who jumped to defend him.  I'm also certain that his house would be burned to the ground with him and his family in it.  God knows we can't leave any evidence laying around now can we.  This thing smells just like Waco.  Same BBQ, different location...

Concerning the hypothetical situation, I am reasonably sure the homeowner would have to make a phone call (911?) to call off the troops.

Aside from that, he couldn't be expected to poke his head out the window and yell, "You're shooting at the wrong house."

That would only make his wife a widow.

The idea of shooting back at the cops is a toughie. I wouldn't condemn anyone for doing so.

I don't think he was a [b]violent[/b] felon, I believe his felony is from weapons violations. Remember they served him with a warrant a year ago and searched out his residence at a different address.

I think we can all agree that this was a gross error on the part of Law Enforcement.  The end result of their "tactics" is 2 people died.  Based on what's reported the guy was a thief and impersonator of L.E.  Now that hardly adds up to a "hardcore criminal."  So why all the (L.E.) firepower in the first place?  I would recommend that all of us write the media and our politicians that this type of action by law enforcement must stop.  Fine, arrest the guy when he goes for a six pack, but these Rambo-type raids need to stop on minor criminals.  A different course of action would have resulted in a good cop being alive today and a theif behind bars.  Instead these JBT's have just given us 2 corpses and perhaps a martyr for the next "Tim McVeigh."