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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:06:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Whenever we get one of these "burnout the gunowner" situations, we seem to get a replay of the same old government m.o. :
A. Put on a liberal neighbor-woman to assassinate your character. B. Show up with "tanks". C. Tempt the barricaded guy to shoot one of the local cops inorder that his buddies will not want to take prisoners.(cynical, I know, but likely true.) Notice how none of the four feds were hit? D. Pump in the flammable poison gas grenades which starts a structure fire. E. The commentator heard on the videotape always gets around to saying, "He's burning *himself* up." F. Hold the firetrucks back for a couple of crucial hours (while all the physical evidence burns up). G. Have the government spokesman charge all kinds of crimes to the guy (including plenty of hearsay). H. When it's all over and the investigators are picking through the ashes, looking for the gunowner's charred skeleton, there is no longer any d@mn recourse-- he's dead. Aren't cops supposed to grab these "perps" and toss them in jail so Judge Whoever can deal out justice? If the cops are going to be Judge/Jury/Executioner all in one, maybe we ought to increase their takehome pay. -------- Aren't the NYC cops famous for waiting out barricaded suspects?! Why the d@mn rush, every time?! [smoke] -------- God bless our honest, decent, constitution-respecting cops-- we need 'em. -------- "Look daddy, a fireman. There's going to be a fire." |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 6:16:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Now that I have had time to digest it all I've formed some opinions: You sir, are In my opinion a principled man with an eye towards fairness of evaluation. [i][b]"If you're not part of the Solution, you're part of the problem"[/i][/b] sgb |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 8:13:44 PM EDT
[#3]
I've heard part of the warrant was for impersonating a US Marshal. If you tell some babe at the bar, no. Tell all your neighbors, yes. If he had felony convictions he shouldn't have had firearms so I think the search warrant was justified.
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Posted: 9/1/2001 8:30:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Erasmus, you forgot one other crucial detail: Allow the news media to sensationalize the story beyond all belief. There is now no hope of finding the truth nor of letting public opinion fall in any corner accept that of the cops. Every local news station in the country covered this incident, the stations here used all the usual superlatives to paint this guy as an angry loner, hell bent on revenge. Sweep, I agree that the death of a cop will lead to more ratcheting of gun laws and increased cry for prohibition. However, we are almost there anyhow. For whatever Beck did to get himself into trouble, it was never equal to the punishment he received for it. I don't appreciate this system whereby certain people in power are totally exempt from the laws and the rest of us can be burned out of our homes and killed at any time with no repurcussion (indeed, the public supports such endeavors as long as you're a nobody). |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 8:30:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Sweep,
I see it a little more cut and dry. First of all, I respect your opinion on the constitutionality (or lack thereof) on gun laws. However, that discussion/debate should be left out of this. Probable cause for the issuance of as search warrant into someone's home based on a "tipster" need only be reasonbly corroborated by LE (lot's of recent US Sup Ct. law on this- and yes, I agree with it). I don't know what that corroboration was, however, it was apparently right on so far as accuracy. He did in fact have possession of at least one weapon, making his actions a felony. Accordingly, the issuance of a warrant, to search and/or arrest, was justified. LE was just doing its job- executing a warrant. He should not be labeled a "dumbass" for his actions; his actions constitute murder. Nothing more and nothing less. He lives (and died) by the same rules as us. His admiration of firearms means nothing. Further, please don't include me in with him- he is not giving "us" a bad name 'cause he's not part of "us" in my opinion. He was convicted felon who decided to make a carreer out of breaking the law. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 8:58:29 PM EDT
[#6]
This whole damned situation just stinks to high heaven- the dead LEO, the dead man in the house, the BATF being there- Why the f+^& did the BATF have to be there? Every time they show up it ratchets up the tension- in their cynical gamble to end the situation fast, and to their liking, it either makes the subject drop his gun, or start firing back, just out of pure unbridled loathing for the BATF, and what it stands for. Whatever this guy's crimes may or may not have been, he probably thought he would be burned alive, and it looks like his prophecy- self-fulfilling or not- turned out to be true.
Why couldn't they have nabbed him at a laundromat or ATM? Couldn't they have tailed him and picked him up when he was alone, away from his house and other people? Why the big paramilitary operations on TV? Is this Grand Guignol 2001, or merely a media event to show how necessary the BATF is, if only to justify its recently increased funding? Do morons run our Federal agencies, who frankly are too stupid to think of the possible consequences of daylight siege operations on suburban dwellings and neighborhoods? Wasn't the fiasco at Waco enough to put the fear of God (no pun intended) into these police? I have come to the conclusion that such LEOs and their amoral self-delusion as to their own invincibility will only get more innocent people killed. Abolish the BATF- now. For the children. ....................................... If cops continue to play at being an army of occupation, they should expect the subjects to play their role in return. Vive la resistance. -- J. D. TUCCILLE |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 10:27:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Why the big paramilitary operations on TV? Is this Grand Guignol 2001, or merely a media event to show how necessary the BATF is, if only to justify its recently increased funding? I said before it was only going to be a matter of time before the networks start airing "Running Man" type reality t.v. shows. "The subject, excuse me, the suspect, as you probably already know, is a convicted felon, and prohibited, by the Gun Control Act of 1968, of [sic] possessing firearms guns." -Bernard Zapor, Assistant Special Agent In Charge, Los Angeles Field Division, ATF How is private possession of something affecting interstate commerce? The ATF is and always will be just tax collectors. The ATF should be either disbanded or disarmed as through their own corrupt reputation their mere presence now just escalates situations. |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 10:55:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Steve, I'm not sure, but I think we pretty much agree.
[img]http://www.ncsg.org/topohat-small.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 11:03:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: He did in fact have possession of at least one weapon, making his actions a felony. Accordingly, the issuance of a warrant, to search and/or arrest, was justified. I'm just saying that I disagree with the general "felon" owning a firearm. This guy was convicted of burglary, don't know if it was armed burglary or not, but in this case I think I might go along with saying he shouldn' have been allowed to own them for a certain period of time. So yes, I agree the warrant was valid. LE was just doing its job- executing a warrant. He should not be labeled a "dumbass" for his actions; his actions constitute murder. Nothing more and nothing less. He lives (and died) by the same rules as us. His admiration of firearms means nothing. Lost me here, I wasn't calling the LEO a dumbass. However, I disagree that he deserved to die at the hands of Beck. Further, please don't include me in with him- he is not giving "us" a bad name 'cause he's not part of "us" in my opinion. He was convicted felon who decided to make a carreer out of breaking the law. Why would I include you in with him? And I see your point, but the anti's won't. Like you said, we're almost there anyway. [img]http://www.ncsg.org/topohat-small.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 11:09:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: LE was just doing its job- executing a warrant. He should not be labeled a "dumbass" for his actions; his actions constitute murder. Nothing more and nothing less. He lives (and died) by the same rules as us. His admiration of firearms means nothing. Lost me here, I wasn't calling the LEO a dumbass. However, I disagree that he deserved to die at the hands of Beck. [img]http://www.ncsg.org/topohat-small.jpg[/img] Sorry, I think I confused you here by not being clear (and f*cking up the sentence). I was referring to you simply calling Beck a "dumbass", not the LEO. I should have said: ". . . the LEO was just doing his job. The shooting of the LEO by Beck makes Beck more than just a simple 'dumbass', it makes him a murderer" I was just saying I thought your language about Beck's behavior was not strong enough and that I would place 100% of the blame on him. We do usually agree- and you are right, we probably agree here too. BTW, just heard they found a body of a dog in the ashes- now I'm REALLY pissed! [;)] |
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Posted: 9/1/2001 11:56:17 PM EDT
[#11]
From all the media reports, the whole operation after the initial shooting was a LACSO affair.
For once the Feds seem to get a pass on this. Either the Sherriffs office or the Marshals office brought the ATF in on this, in order to get federal firearms charges on him under Project Exile. However Exile has never in the past been used as a stand alone charge. The Marshals were there because they had been tipped that he was impersonating a Marshal. But even that is a low grade felony by itself and is very much a he said/she said kind of case unless the guy was stupid enough to have counterfit ID's and badges. Point is they are both usually tack ons to serious felonies- not crimes they usually bother hunting down and prosecuting by themselves. I think it was the Sheriff who was after this guy for something. They called in the Feds because they wanted to nail this guy, and put him away outside of California. The question is, what did the Sheriffs department think this guy did? |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 6:30:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Either the Sherriffs office or the Marshals office brought the ATF in on this, in order to get federal firearms charges on him under Project Exile. If this is the case, it may change my opinion somewhat. Although Project Exile is a bunch of BS, you still have to remember this guy had a criminal record. I guess the best way I can look at it is: this guy had a can of Hornet Spray (the 2nd Amendment) but smacked the hornest nest (the law and neighbors) with a big stick (pretending to be a deputy Marshal) first, before breaking out the can of spray. When you go about killing hornets in that matter, your ass is going to get stung! I don't like the fact that they were there for firearms charges, but nor do I like the fact a deputy was killed. I don't like the fact that they burned his house down with him in it, nor do I like the fact of what original brought him to their attention in the first place. I think both are to blame. [img]http://www.ncsg.org/topohat-small.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 6:39:08 AM EDT
[#13]
Why would a neighbor report Beck to police, who claimed to be a LEO and was seen with a gun. This could happen to any of us, just because a neighbor sees you with a rifle case.
It's the start of things to come. Maybe HCI will ask all it's members to turn in neighbors who are suspected of owning a gun. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 11:20:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Why would a neighbor report Beck to police, who claimed to be a LEO and was seen with a gun. This could happen to any of us, just because a neighbor sees you with a rifle case. It's the start of things to come. Maybe HCI will ask all it's members to turn in neighbors who are suspected of owning a gun. Because Beck acted wierd, for one thing he told one neighbor he trained police dogs for a living while telling others he was a US Marshal. He couldnt keep his story strait. And they didnt call about him bringing in gun cases. They called about people bringing him armfuls of uncased firearms- and under Kali's shitty gun laws its illegal to transport them that way! HE WASN'T A GUN OWNER HE WAS A FENCE FOR STOLEN GUNS! What is so hard to understand about that? |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 12:21:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Personally, it is guys like this that makes it so easy to get the antigun laws passed. It is clear he was involved in illegal activities, when the law enforcement shows up to put a stop to it. He makes a decision to fight it out, in this process he kills an officer, making his situation from bad to worse. Even though we say the LEO's using what ever means to get that person to surrender or neutralize him are in question. Many of these practices are far more leanent than just 60 years ago. Take a look at history and you see that LEO's used to always riddle a hold up with holes or burn it down when a suspect was using deadly force to hold the law off. During the Mob days it was not uncommon for bloody gun battles between LEO's and members of the Mob or bank robbers. Same goes when you look back to post civil war wild west days. In almost all cases the bad guy/gal was not took alive. Almost all wanted warrants were dead or alive back then.
Dave Dee NRA/ILA Member AR15.com Moderator of Reloading Forum A great place to get answers to your reloading questions. Or come and take a look at my web page at. [url]members.aol.com/dbrewer842/dbrewer842.html[/url] |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 12:54:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Any new facts on his prior court battle(s) with ATF? 3 Hung juries. But when did all this take place?
That story about 'armfuls of uncased firearms' sounds dubious. I would question the source. It it in writing somewhere? Could you believe a pants-wetting soccer mom might exaggerate or synthesize (lie) by stringing together bits & pieces and just make up what's lacking? Do you suppose her imagination was fed by feds or the media? Maybe they suggested the answers by the way the 'questions' were phrased. I have a neighbor who I'm very leery of. Her son had to 911 her once or twice, has battered every car till its useless, and always has a collection of left-wing bumper stickers on the back. Not to mention the constant parade of Euopeans and Japanese tourists she puts up. When we go shooting or hunting we use as much discretion as possible while loading & unloading. I can picture her in the place of some of these 'worried neighbors' on the news. Not about me, of course. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 1:05:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: ...HE WASN'T A GUN OWNER HE WAS A FENCE FOR STOLEN GUNS! What is so hard to understand about that? What's hard to understand is what you are basing this on. What facts? You may be right, but we'd like to know, so that we don't think you're just playing junior detective. It's no crime to speculate, but please be clear about whether you are supposing or whether there are facts to back you up - ones ruling out alternative explanations. |
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Posted: 9/2/2001 1:08:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Any new facts on his prior court battle(s) with ATF? 3 Hung juries. But when did all this take place? That story about 'armfuls of uncased firearms' sounds dubious. I would question the source. It it in writing somewhere? Could you believe a pants-wetting soccer mom might exaggerate or synthesize (lie) by stringing together bits & pieces and just make up what's lacking? Do you suppose her imagination was fed by feds or the media? Maybe they suggested the answers by the way the 'questions' were phrased. I have a neighbor who I'm very leery of. Her son had to 911 her once or twice, has battered every car till its useless, and always has a collection of left-wing bumper stickers on the back. Not to mention the constant parade of Euopeans and Japanese tourists she puts up. When we go shooting or hunting we use as much discretion as possible while loading & unloading. I can picture her in the place of some of these 'worried neighbors' on the news. Not about me, of course. So what PRK? He was a convicted felon who shouldnt have had guns, doesnt matter if the source was a neighbor who just didnt like him. Your not a convicted felon, carry your guns out and tell her to shove it. If the police show up, your legle, they will just cite her for filing a false report. |
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