Contiuing with the thread that was started a few weeks back.

I am interested in what martial arts would be most beneficial to kids.
Here is the criteria:  Need a well rounded style/dicipline that can be easily retained .  Will be taught to four children with bleeding disorders.  Will need the absolute best training on defense - to know how and where to take a hit and cause the least damage.  Then to be able to end a fight, if avoidance is impossiable, quickly and assuredily.  Competition is out of the question!  

Suggestions, comments and guidance are all appreciated.  Thanks!

Given the "bleeding disorder" I would discount ALL striking styles.

Look into Kodakan style Judo. Avoid the flavor of the month styles like Gracie JuJutsu. It's not that they don't work but "celebrity" systems attract posers and imposters.

A good Judo/Jujutsu system would be the best for limiting the types of injury you are concerned about and would evem permit competition.

Look into Judo schools with a Japanese parent organization or AAU afiliation.

And keep in mind that Japanese Judo is not a concession to Karate styles. There is a popular expression among "old school" martial artists.

"If you might encounter problems and can take a Judo or Karate black belt for help. Pick the Judo black belt."

Very true, if not for the simple reason that most combat (in my experience, thank GOD) is done on the ground.  Judo/JiuJitsu is great, especially for younger kids.  I would also have to HIGHLY agree with Steyr - tiny, uncontrollable, flailing arms and feet tend to do more bleeding damage than tiny bodies grappling, so that's your first factor right there.  Kempo, Muay Thai, and Kendo especially are DEFINITIVE NO's!!!

The first thing that came to mind when I thought of your plight was actually *cough* Aikido.  While I personally have certain "issues" with many techniques in the art, it's nonetheless a moderately practical and a [i]non-bleeding[/i] style, if you will.

Bleeding condition aside, I still would and always will endorse grappling/trapping styles over striking ones.  I've had enough experience in many common styles (TKD, JKD/Jun Fan, Wing Chun, Muay, Judo, JiuJitsu), and I'm considerably more trained in my striking ability than my grappling, although I am much more confident in the latter.  Therefore, I am a sure-fire preacher of the grappling arts.  Martial Arts are the #1 most applicable way of teaching discipline, focus, and physical training on the face of the planet.  I challenge anybody to argue differently.  I personally feel your children will LOVE some of the orthodox Judo styles being taught today.  

Packrat,

I will throw this in--discuss the reasons for the training with the instructor.  If you are there for all the classes, that is fine, but what happens when one of the kids gets a nosebleed that won't stop?  If the instructor is a responsible individual, there will be no problems.  If not, then you should probably be looking elsewhere for instructions.  

And, with the instructor knowing of potential problems, it may help in case of a hidden injury.

Joint replacement is freqent in long term hemophiliacs--the hemoglobin is "corrosive" to the joints, so any kind of throwing/locking art may also be a potential source of problems for bleeding into the joint.

AFARR

I concur with Steyr. Avoid martial arts that rely on 'interception' and instead go for 'redirection'. Judo, Akido, Tai Chi (Hey, it worked for patrick swayze in 'roadhouse')

Why would you want to subject someone to a contact sport that has a bleeding disorder??

Are you trying to find the kids a quality activity or are you wanting to train them to defend themselves from others ?

If you are wanting to teach them some self-defense start with something like high-school wrestling.  It is a great base to start from and no striking or kicking.  Make sure to get them fitted for head gear so to protect their ears.

The kids will love it....

Some actions are direct derivatives of necessity.  Life threw his children a curveball, they can either swing at it, or strike out and walk back to the dugout.  These are quality activities, AND they will possibly save their life one day.  I'm not seeing the problem in either of these courses.



Are you nutz???  I work with wrestling, and WRESTLING AINT LIGHT!  In fact, I've seen more bleeding, broken bones, and twisted joint incidents in amateur wrestling than I've EVER seen in my training during striking arts, professional wrestling, or shoot wrestling.  Putting these kids in a wrestling program is asking for trouble - for their sake PLEASE don't consider it!

Having studied martial arts for 17 years, I would say go for Aikido/ Aikijujitsu. Or perhaps one of the "softer" styles of kung fu(Hsing I, tai chi, wushu, even mantis or eagle). I would also check into weapons arts such as Kendo where a person can learn as much in not striking as in. Like AFARR said, the main hinge is the instructor.

This is a catch-22 question. If they happen to get into a street fight, someone is going to get knocked out real quick, or there will be someone bleeding after several minutes of combat.

First teach them how to avoid confrontations, then teach them how stay physically fit for life, this will be their 2nd best asset.

During this process, interject it with a grappling art (wrestling), and a striking arts
(tae kwan do) for the legs and (boxing) for the hands.  These arts can be taught in a controlled enviroment where medical attention is readily available.

Being in good physical condition, will allow them to handle a confrontation better.

Waterdog

Outstanding posts, gentlemen and ladies (if any)!

The number one killer of hemophiliates is a head bleed.  Due to the nature of the beast, it is a slow oozing type bleed and sometimes cannot be detected for several days and by that time, we are treading into very dangerous territory.  

Secondly, the next largest problem is joint problems, as so well stated by AFARR.  It is very common to find young men who have rhumatoid arthritis because of the problems associatied with old blood in the joint cavities.

A healthy life style coupled with very aggressive treatments of suspected bleeds, is paramount.

The instructor issue has been a great concern.  Because just one instance in a lack of judgement or coupling with a less mature instructor could lead to a very dangerous, if not deadly consequence.  I know an instructor who is very good at what he does, style called sky budo, let fly a kick that the student at the most basic level should have seen coming.  The student for some reason did not react to it correctly and it connected to the pumpkin.  Out like a light for several minutes and to this day does not remember anything up to kick and for most of the afternoon.  Had that been my guys or even little girl, a bleed would have incurred...........
And I would hate to think any further than that.

So I must choose wisely.  I think that I'm really liking the Aikido and Judo but I do believe striking does play a part and maybe that is something that I or a top notch/mature instructor can pass on, in a very controlled enviroment.  I have taken a number of classes in Aikijujitsu, absolutlely loved it but kinda hard to find in our area.  Kinda interested in the Chinese styles, maybe I can get some more into on those, somewhere.  

You guys have given me quite a bit to consider and I truly apprectiate your insights.  If there is anymore you all can contribute, please do.

Seeing how our society is going, it is our obligation to insure my children are equipped to handle most problems that comes their way.  But of course, when they are old enough, they will too, travel the road of the black rifle [:D]

Thanks guys, feel free to post more.  I learning and storing it all.

I would have to say that Judo/Classical Jiu-Jitsu styles are the way to go.  I earned my Shodan Black Belt in Hakko Ryu Jiu-Jitsu through countless hours of hard training and if there is one thing I learned it is this: any quality martial art training is an investment in yourself. That knowledge is priceless and can never be taken away. Good luck in your selection...

If you plan on a life long study I say Akido. I have taken Kempo, Ty, and the Akido was the best of them all. Just have to really be into it and plractice alot. Kids are young and their bodies are flexible. Not much hitting or punching so no chance of getting popped in the nose. Just alot or throws and rolls. very safe and fun.

I agree, Akido would be the best. No hits or kicks realy. if you want to see some check out a couple of Steven Segall flicks.
[sniper]

According to what you've stated as to what you're looking for to train your children in. The suggestions of Aikido & Aikijujutsu/Jujutsu are pretty much on the money.I've studied, Kodokan Judo, Isshin Ryu Karate, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, And Wing Chun.They all have their finer points, so I'm not saying which is best, but for me Daito ryu is it. I've been studying now for 5 years at an accredited Daito school(important to check credentials on ANY instructor, If they are real, they wont mind)And I have to say this. Since then, nothing touches me unless I let it. It does take a lot of practice and dedication. But the rewards are boundless.And dealing with multiple attackers is a strong point. Most styles dont cover this effectively. Aiki styles consider this a paramount point to learn. Other styles mentioned that are exceptional are Hakko Ryu,Nihon Goshin Ryu(pure self defense)Kodokan Judo.Small Circle Jujutsu,and others. These styles are pain compliance(joint locks,twists), projections(throws) with minimal strikes.Mostly for distraction to complete the technique. My instructor had a good saying. "Trying to go toe to toe with a 300 LB monster most of the time wont work. Move and blend with him and when the opportunity presents itself, hit him with the hardest weapon in the world. THE EARTH!" Just my $0.02

Speaking from experience I would also highly recommend aikido.

Wing Chun or Tai Chi gets my vote.

What are some of the benefits of Wing Chun?  Tai Chi would be great because of low impact and muscle building but at what point do the lessons go into the active defense side?  Is this a syle that will keep a 9 year old interested?

Two main styles of Tai Chi, Yang and Chen. The Chen style (the original) is definitely a striking combative form that I would not recommend for your children. The Yang style is functionally useless as a martial arts, A deliberate part of it's creation, and only beneficial as a holistic exercise that would probably bore the hell out of the kiddies.

While Wing Chun is arguably a "soft" boxing style, I got hit plenty when studying. It is most correctly classified as a Chinese "boxing" style. Other "soft" styles are Pa-Kua and Hsing I, but they might be far too advanced for children. Aikido/Aikijutsu styles might be suitable for them, but often are "practiced" in a very unrealistic way. Authentic Aiki styles can sometimes be severe.

If it were MY children, in your situtation they would be studing authentic Judo. Hell of a workout, most physically demending art I ever studied, but relatively injury free. Fatigue and strain, not withstanding. A minor note, some of the authentic Japanese schools stress "choke outs" prior to yudansha (black belt) grade, this will be an issue you will want to address beforehand given your situation.

Don't send to poor kid to Tei-Chi it makes me want to go to sleep and I have been at this stuff for 11 years.

To start with you really need to go with some thing like Judo, it's the way that I wish I had started.
But there will be a time that and striking styles will be a must, you will find to tuff to get to a guy to get him down to "Judo" him so to speek[:D]if you can't get to him with out getting your head smacked.

You will just have to take time nothing good works fast but you will give this kid some thing to work on for life.

I study Shao-Lin Kung-Fu...

Shao Lin Tao

What's wrong with carotid chokes?  I've performed and taken many of them (and I mean the actual process of going unconscious, not tapping-out from them).  They don't hurt, they don't injure you, and when you wake up you feel kinda tingly all over [:P]
The only part I would concern my children with is the 5-10 seconds of discomfort before slipping into unconsciousness - if it's a good, solid choke it should last no longer than that.  You get used to it.

I thought that Tai Chi was strictly formed as a type of exercise, created to master the form of chi throughout the body. Looking at the movements I dont see how it could even be made to be combative. I admit im no expert but I just dont see it.
[sniper]

Tai Chi Chuan(Grand Ultimate Boxing) is a internal boxing method that harnesses the power of "chi." It was a family style of the Chen clan who may or may not have created it. But they were certainly the caretakers of the system and repsonible for it's propugation. This style is considered the highest form of boxing in the history of ALL asian martial arts.

The Chen family closely guarded it's secrets and techniques, teaching only those they felt suitable and mostly within the family. The effectiveness of this style became legendary and all who knew of it sought instruction with the Chen clan.

During the Ching dynasty, the Manchu royal family requested an audience with a member of the Chen family. The royal Manchus requested instruction in their "family" style. The Chens knew they could not resist the Manchu royals but also could not teach these "invaders" the highest boxing form in existence. Keep in mind given the lack of firearms, martial arts were very real military considerations. Advanced skills could be a deciding factor in real world combat.

So the Chen's deliberately "flawed" their methods. They comprised new forms and techniques that were functionally useless in combat. On a side note, the "chi circulating" exercises were left intact and as a result these "new" forms did maintain a holistic benefit. This new variation became known as the Yang style. Because it was taught to the royal family, who quickly disseminated it to many Manchus, it become much more common and popular than the original Chen form. By this time the Chen style had gone almost completely underground to safeguard it from being known to the Manchu.

To this day, the Yang form is much more common and popular because of the Manchu dissemination. The Chen style still exists and is practiced by many, but bears little resemblence to the slow motion Yang form. In addition there are two other forms, the Sun and Wu forms of Tai Chi. These were created in an effort to make the Yang form more combat ready. The creators of the Sun and Wu forms determined the Yang style needed improvements to be combat effective and were unfamiliar with the original Chen style.

Thanks for the info man. Where did you get history on all of this?, if you dont mind my asking.
[sniper]

As a student of both the Chen and Yang styles, the histories and development are well known to me. But it is a well referrenced subject as well.

For works regarding the Yang style, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is the most notable author.

Robert Smith is another well known author on the subject of Chinese Boxing.