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Posted: 4/16/2006 5:52:26 PM EDT
[#1]
35,000-40,000 for PGY1, most residents don't pay insurance since they're still in training, they fall under the institutions who pay the insurance for them. AFAIK. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 5:58:58 PM EDT
[#2]
If residency is a 4 yr commitment does that mean 40 grand a yr for 4 yrs?
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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:00:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Depends on where you go, and what year of training. Ballpark $35-45K,
Residents don't pay malpractice -- they are covered by their training program. Pay usually increases with each year of training. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:14:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Im trying to decide between going NROTC and getting 2 yrs of undergrad payed for and then getting med school fundage as well (how does this work, how much is covered by the monty GI bill). I would be making officers salary for 4 yrs after med school (since 4 yrs in med school counts as active). How much is the usual signing bonus? Would it be wiser to go Navy or stay civvie if i want to do a complicated specialy like cardiothoracic surgery (where i wouldnt be making big bucks until after specialty training anyway).
Jeff |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:25:09 PM EDT
[#5]
If you join, join Army/AF, I've heard nothing but complaints from those I know in the navy. First off, they pretty much ship you out and employ you as a GMO (general medical officer) immediately after graduation. I've been debating this question myself and I'm just a hair over a year away from graduating with my medical degree. If you are planning on joining for the money, don't. School is easy to pay for and people give out loans like candy since docs have almost a zero deferment rate on their payback. If you're joining because you want to, have at it. And yes, it's ~40K per year and most places give you a 1-2K raise per year past the PGY1 year. and just my advice, don't make any plans on what you're dead set on your specialty being this far in advance, I do not know anyone in my class who has not changed their minds at least once. If you want more specific answers from those who've been there, try this forum. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:27:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Yup dont join the Navy until you have your MD and residency. Otherwise they will fuck with you.
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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:36:11 PM EDT
[#7]
I dont want to go Army ROTC, and AF was on my list 2nd. But what are the downsides of NROTC as far as med school goes? What does the AF ROTC program consist of?
Jeff |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:44:38 PM EDT
[#8]
As for Navy, you go to med school and thats it. You get paid for tuition, books and you get a stipend per month. It was around $900 when I went to school. It was year for year when I went to school after the first 2 years. If you got support for 1 year you still owed them 2. 2 years you owed them 2. Then it was year for year. Or you could pay what was owed at the end and not go at all. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 6:49:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Which bases offer deployment for sugeons? Do you just get officers pay or can you collect an additional salary for being specialized?
Jeff |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 7:12:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Are your student loans deferred while in residency, or do they bleed you dry on that too? Jim |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 7:30:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Someone correct me if I use the wrong terminology. There's a certain period of time during which they are deferred (no interest accruing on fed loans). When that expires, you can request a hardship deferrment while your income is below a certain level. My residency program in Boston provided a small cost of living differential. It didn't make up for the cost of living, but bumped me out of the hardship deferrment. When that happened, it switched to forbearance - interest accruing but no payment required. But hoo boy, am I paying on those suckers now. 
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Posted: 4/16/2006 7:47:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Mostly the reason why I want to Join up as payment for med school= No rediculous 200000 loans to pay off
Edit: The specialty that i want to persue is ~9 yrs of residency post Med School. Does this change anyhting about the ROTC... will I make more as an officer during these 9 yrs than I will with civi program? |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:18:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Yeah, the "ridiculous" loans are tough to pay off as well.
pato |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:25:16 PM EDT
[#14]
If you want to go career military medicine then by all means sign up right now and get the perks and $ but realize that they will own you for AT LEAST the next decade or so. That's ok if you love it and want to stay in. A lot of guys have VERY satisfying careers in the .mil system and wouldn't have it any other way. If you don't want to be career military then don't take their money at all. I have MD friends who are miserable because they took what seemed like big money as a med student but then ended up owing Uncle Sam years of service that they really didn't like, and looking back the money was chicken feed compared to what they could get after residency. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:25:57 PM EDT
[#15]
With such a long road ahead would it be more beneficial to persue the military or civilian route Since I would have 9 Yrs of residency and 4 of med school if i went military, i would just have to do 7 more years until I could retire with pension and only be 42 and go into practice then, but then again, in that 7 years i could be making a mid 6 figure salary per yr. Options upon options.
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:27:40 PM EDT
[#16]
School loans are usually low interest rate loans that can be dealt with on an attending MD's salary. BTW if you are thinking CT surgery I would recommend you think long and hard about that. I haven't met a happy CT surgeon in many years. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:34:12 PM EDT
[#17]
cutter, why do most of your CT friends hate their profession?
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:35:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Unless something has changed medschool loans for the most part float 3 pts above the prime rate with a max of 18 on some. Interest accrues from day one unlike undergrad. That is for most. You would likely need several of the loans from various programs. Pay off your HEAL loan first. Keep it as small as possible--live a spartan existence. You will be glad you did later.
As for military programs it is MO that you are better off completing your training and then joining. You might change your mind about what you want to do, have a family, etc. You can always sign up later and when I finished medschool in '94 they gave you a better deal after you were finished. I see NO ADVANTAGE in the military programs. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:39:14 PM EDT
[#19]
What residency is 9 years?
That HAD to be a typo. pato |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:43:28 PM EDT
[#20]
No Typo- 6 yrs residency and 3 yrs fellowship for Cardiothoracic surgery.
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:46:52 PM EDT
[#21]
DrJarhead is absolutely correct. Unless you are destitute or want some sort of weird medical field that only the military offers by all means go for it. But if can wing it on your own you will be better off. Like I said, the Nave especially will fuck you. But if you already have your degree they will kiss your ass and allow you to pick your own billet. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:52:48 PM EDT
[#22]
I think i just might go Civvie cuz that way I wont have to pay the .gov with my time.. med school loans arent too bad once you have that 6 fig/ yr salary. Thanks for the input guys.
Jeff |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:55:15 PM EDT
[#23]
What fantasy world are you living in? 
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Posted: 4/16/2006 8:57:23 PM EDT
[#24]
www.salary.com fantasy land. I know this isnt right out of med school but for CT surgeons this is the mean salary.
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:03:01 PM EDT
[#25]
I went the military route for medschool and I would do the same again. (Of course I am typing this in Ramadi, IRAQ hool,One the other hand, CINCWIFELANT has read what anesthesiologists who are board certified in interventional pain management make on the outside, and now the mantra is,"When can you go out and get into private practice?"heJUST to pay for medical school, don't.
If you are going into the military for a desire to serve, military tradition in the family, etc. go for it. I wouldn't have lived my life differently for a second (ok there is that time I turned down that microbus full of amorous cheerleaders, but I wouldn't do over any other aspect of my lifehateverAn attending gets the same above ( minus that 400), plus an annual 15K for being a physician not in training, an annual variable bonus based on speciality (the max right now is 36K), and an extra $500.00 per month for being board certified. I clear roughly 120K/yr. Compaire that to some of the 350k-600k salaries I've heard bantered about. On the plus side,, no operating expenses, better lifestyle (when not in Iraq), and no malpractice insurance. On the down side, less cash and deployments (did I mention I'm in IRAQheZack |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:09:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Adjust that income projection for insurance premiums... I was pre-med for some time in college, and my own physician had a talk with me about the future of the medical profession, especially dealing with insurance companies for payment and for malpractice policies. He strongly advised me not to enter medicine, at least not as an MD. After considering that and a couple of other reasons, I decided to change my academic path. Jim |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:14:21 PM EDT
[#27]
i know that malpractice is high but if youre clearing 400 grand how much is taken away by malpractice
Jeff |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:23:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Indeed. Take that 400 grand number you found as a gross billing figure. Now, take 10% off the top that your billing company charges to collect that 400 grand. Due to tax rules, your corporation takes out 30-40 percent. You get to pay tax on what's left. Pay malpractice, health, disability, and dental insurance. Pay into retirement. Pay your student loans. Now look at how little you have left. Junior guy in your group? You'll get the Medicaire cases that don't pay as well as the private insurance cases, so that leaves you with a couple choices: accept less pay or work as hard as a resident to make up the difference in money. Pay is higher after residency, that's true. Don't fool yourself into thinking financial troubles go away just b/c you make more. Expenses are higher, loan payments hit harder than you think, and that doesn't even include the moving & job expenses you may incur. Many, if not most, med students change their desired specialty. I went into med school thinking trauma or neurosurgery, ended up doing anesthesia, and am perfectly happy with that choice. What others said is true - CY fellowship is hellish. I watched several nice surg residents disintegrate into screaming/yelling/tantrum-throwing children over the course of a couple years. I turned down a Harvard CV anesthesia fellowship in part for (among other personal, family, financial, and political reasons) the extremely caustic operating room atmosphere there. Don't get me wrong - I still do hearts, and really like the chest cutters where I work now. They all agree that you need to do a careful risk/benefit analysis on your chosen specialty. Don't do surgical specialties for glamour - nothing too glamourous about standing ankle deep in blood for 8 hours. Ask me about our trauma Friday night that kept me here an extra 16 hours, 6-7 gallons of blood loss, and ultimate tragic outcome. Now I'm back in-house for another 24 hour shift. It's rewarding, but nobody plays the theme from "ER" when your pager beeps for the umpteenth time at 3am. ETA: I love my job, but don't recommend that people go into medicine unless they are absolutely driven to do so. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:29:42 PM EDT
[#29]
I might be sick and twisted but seriously that kinda stuff floats my boat and turns my wheels. Ive always worked best in high stress and keeping my hands in someones chest trying to fix an aortic aneurism is a fantasy that amazes me. I think of working on the heart and chest akin to working with a very well designed yet high maintnence reactor (i couldnt bring myself to do nuke engineering- you nuke guys scare me). It makes me happy just thinking about it.
Jeff |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:31:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Edit: double tap
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:33:29 PM EDT
[#31]
The rates vary depending on location and specialty. New York City metro area can be between $100,000 and $200,000+ per year for surgical subspecialties including OB/GYN. CV surgery is high liability. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:38:22 PM EDT
[#32]
so 497-220( high insurance for CT) is still 277 after taxes in NY metro... not too bad.
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:39:15 PM EDT
[#33]
I'll be first to admit that being in the OR doing the high intensity stuff is fun if it suits your personaltiy, which it sounds like it does. I tried hard to like nonsurg specialties, but kept being drawn back to the clubhouse - bad hours, blood, pus, guts, and all. My prediction: you'll be wired for a couple days after the first time riding the halls on a stretcher doing chest compressions.  My younger sister HATES critical situations, so she does outpatient internal medicine. Best of luck to you. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:44:12 PM EDT
[#34]
$497,000 - %40 tax = $298,200 $298,200 - 220,000 insurance = $78,200 Itemize your taxes (for good deductions), and try to find a group that pays all or part of your malpractice & other insurances. It can be done, but the days of a Ferrari in every doc's garage are gone with the 80's. Which sucks, b/c after working 7 years for 80-100 hrs a week with constant threat of patient death and/or lawsuit, you'll have earned a Ferrari. I compromised and got an S2000 b/c my residency was 4 years. 
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:47:31 PM EDT
[#35]
thanks sleepdoc... you should practice in taiwan. My uncle is a anesthesiologist (i cant be one cuz i cant even spell it) on tenure at the top taiwan med school. Basically he does 1 surgery a week and just hangs out for a cool 150 grand after taxes... then again it is taiwan, and they cant have guns
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Posted: 4/16/2006 9:55:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Another random thought. Too much caffeine in my 100oz "Bladder Buster On-call Mug."
3 things to consider when choosing where you end up living: Job & family satisfaction Location Money Pick the 2 that are most important to you - money last on my list for a reason. I'm a 5 hour drive to family, joined a good group of docs with a great case mix, and get to make up for the lost first 5 years of marriage with Mrs sleepdr. And after living 8 years in MD and MA, I got my first AR this year to celebrate leaving anti-gun strongholds. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 10:00:39 PM EDT
[#37]
LOL,
I was thinking Florida or Vermont... I hate gun unfriendly states. I was thinking that Vermont= beautiful and Florida= patients and beautiful. I have no Mrs jhgray2 yet so I havent considered family yet, things may change but right now its money and location (money for a bachelor = freedom, guns, house, and cars in that order. Food? whats that... I have all the ammo i need  )
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Posted: 4/16/2006 10:05:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Ramen noodles, my friend. Ramen noodles. 29 cents a meal and the rest goes in your ammo penny jar. |
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Posted: 4/16/2006 10:10:48 PM EDT
[#39]
ahh... how do you think i survive college
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Posted: 4/17/2006 2:13:59 AM EDT
[#40]
If you are in it for the money--the shine will wear off in no time and you will be one unhappy dude.
Being a physician should be a calling--not a job. Unless you are an office guy or practice in EM--the hours suck, family life is nil, and what the man says about insurance and decreasing reimbursements is true. The Doc is trying to help you, Jeff. Listen to him. pato |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 3:17:35 AM EDT
[#41]
Sounds like you want to be a doctor for the money. You will make the worst kind of doctor. I would advise you to do something else.
50 percent of the time I dont make any money on patients. I makea decent living but I can make a lot more doing something else and not working as hard. There are guys on the board making a lot more money then me with a lot less education and a lot less hours. I run into people that are motivated by money as med students and you can see it right away. They dont give a shit about people and dont want to put the hours in do a proper job. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 6:01:08 AM EDT
[#42]
You should consider what ARDOC is telling you. Even on a good day it is a very hard job and you can pretty much kiss any personal life goodbye, esp as a chest cutter. The money won't be worth it when your kids are starting college and you missed it all. By then you'll be in poor health because you are always working and even when off are stressed out. You will almost never get enough sleep. Just the way it is. I would tell you to save your money and if you don't like it you could probably retire well off after 5-10 years except that if you have a family they will blow through money faster than you will make no matter how much that is. Once used to that lifestyle they will not give it up willingly. You will think you are going to make a decent living while helping others and making a difference but you will find that many will be obnoxious and ungrateful. Some of their families will be worse. The hospital politics will take up a fair amount of your time and be exceedingly irritating. The fucktard chicks that work in the various offices will think because they spend their entire day playing bullshit games that you have time for them also. If it is what you want to do then do it but I will guarantee you that it is not what you think. It has sure changed over the past couple of decades. There are better ways to make money AND have a life. Docs no longer control their own destiny as they once did. It can get pretty irritating to pay out for the education, work over 100hrs week while going into debt and then finding out people in IT or even some plumbers are making more than you(I'm in family med). No big deal in that regard I guess but I do find it interesting. You are going to be joining the only profession that has its income restricted by the .gov. Enjoy. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 6:14:41 AM EDT
[#43]
not to hijack....but does anyone have any info/suggestions about the Army veterinary corps?
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Posted: 4/17/2006 8:45:10 AM EDT
[#44]
The problem with vets is that the schools are even more selective then medical schools. There are very very limited spots for new vets. There are only 10 schools in the entire midwest. There are over 10 medical schools in Michigan and Ohio alone. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 9:03:36 AM EDT
[#45]
IIRC, the vet corps takes care of working dogs, does a lot of public health meat inspection type stuff and they MAY run a small animal clinic on post if their schedule allows. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 9:07:55 AM EDT
[#46]
jhgray2, that is a pretty good summary. Dont go into it for the $$ Slight hijack. The biggest problem with reimbursement is docs keep signing the contracts agreeing to take less pay for the same amount of work. Hell, if I ran an insurance company I would try to lowball docs as well. Perfect example.....Medicare was scheduled to cut fees 4.4% in Jan. Did droves of MD rush to drop Medicare? No.
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Posted: 4/17/2006 9:10:13 AM EDT
[#47]
I know this. I am applying for the first time this summer. It is fairly stressful. I am prior service, so the time served towards retirement means 14yrs more and a full retirement. Its very tempting. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 10:08:01 AM EDT
[#48]
Listen to these guys, DO NOT GO INTO MEDICINE FOR THE MONEY, it simply isn't worth it. And if it was mandatory to have free time, lots o' money in medicine you follow the R.O.A.D. (radiology, orthopedics, anesthesiology, dermatology) Those are the ones who make damn good money and have a life, but you have to be the best of the best in school to get into these specialties. If you want money, go find something else, there are many other places you can make the same or much better at a fraction of the effort. It's a waste of your time and resource to train someone who does not want to be there. Dont' even get me going on how medicine is also the profession with the highest rates of suicide, divorce, alcoholism, and substance abuse. That's not because we're a bunch of drunks and have more vices, it's due to the life style and work. I was extremely interested in going into EM for the shift work and variety of pts, but it reminded me too much of family med, I prefer the pts of Internal medicine with their varying degrees of complexities. |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 10:09:45 AM EDT
[#49]
sounds like good advice too me |
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Posted: 4/17/2006 2:20:36 PM EDT
[#50]
Seriously guys, ARDOC especially, I could get a job as an IB at 125 grand a yr and eventually end up as the screwy douchebag who gets a million dollar bonus. I want to be a doctor for health of patients first. I love to work long hours and I sleep 2 hrs a night as it is.
jeff |
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