The first show of "Ten Days that Unexpectedly Changed America" is on now, and the first show is about The Battle of Anteitem. 23,000+ Americans lost their lives on September 17, 1862. What would have happened if Robert E Lee would have won, advanced to Washington, DC and maybe eventually won the war?

And before you all get crazy with the slavery slander, be assured that Slavery would most certainly have been abolished eventually......so in the long run, What would have happened if the South would have won? What would be different? Would we ever have reunified the States? What say you?

Women would be far more attractive all over the country.

they would have ended up having it out with the mexicans.  most of the west had already been claimed by the US, so the CSA would have to have gone south if they wanted to expand

Damn Yankees would not have taken over FL.

Quoted: Damn Yankees would not have taken over FL.

+1

Read some Harry Turtledove books to find out.

the country would be in pieces...  Much like Europe is today.  I'm sure Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California would be a spanish speaking country called Los Something.  African Americans would have eventually risen up against their fat white owners and taken over much of the south resulting in some very good looking inter-racial children.  The Klan would have retreated into the bible belt.  the North would have fallen back under English control with the lease running out just a few years ago.  And I'd be drinking vodka with the russians because the CSA would have NEVER won the cold war.
~Dg84

AGNTSA.

IBTL due to the CoC violations coming at page 10.

wganz
¶

I would suddenly develop the urge to marry my first cousin and throw away all my toothbrushes..

Dentists would be out of business.

Quoted: I would suddenly develop the urge to marry my first cousin and throw away all my toothbrushes..

Is your cousin hot?

Then America would never have become the strong country that we know it to be today. We'd be just like europe. A bunch of factioned nations...

I'm glad the south lost.

California would be a republican state.....


There would have been 2 seperate countries that eventually would have signed a mutual non-agression and defense treaty.  Korea and Viet Nam would not have involved America and we would not be facing the terrorist threat of today.  The Usa would have no gun rights what-so-ever or would be as restrictive as those laws of Kalifornia.  CSA, on the other hand would be the nation that lives in constitutional freedom and supporting the rights of not only RKBA but an equality of the races.  Racial tension would be rampant in the north, which would be going totally bankrupt due to entitlement practices.  The south would have a growing agrarian economy and all the primary oil production for the continent.  International relations for the south would be strong and NYC would not be the "financial capital of the world"  The Mexican border would be secure and there would be no problem with illegals.  However, the asian societies would still be invading the north.

I'd bet you there would be no damn NFA and we would all be basking in F/A goodness.

Hank Jr. said if the south would have won we would have had it made, and he would probably run for president of the southern states.  

From war's end, about five years to the beginning of substantial trade and industrial rejuvination on both sides.  European powers would have attempted to have greater influence in the two countries.  

The two nations would have established reasonably positive diplomatic relations within ten years.  Slavery, already in the decline, would have been over by around 1900.  Voluntary reunification (not simply re-entry of southern states) by around WWI.

That's one scenario I've thought of.  Maybe I should flesh it out and add to the alternate history genre.

Jim

Quoted: From war's end, about five years to the beginning of substantial trade and industrial rejuvination on both sides.  European powers would have attempted to have greater influence in the two countries.   The two nations would have established reasonably positive diplomatic relations within ten years.  Slavery, already in the decline, would have been over by around 1900.  Voluntary reunification (not simply re-entry of southern states) by around WWI. That's one scenario I've thought of.  Maybe I should flesh it out and add to the alternate history genre. Jim

You are probably right.  The South was too poor to exist on its own.  Not enough industry.

There is a movie out right now covering that thought called "The C.S.A."

1)We would still have "Sambo's"
2)Your dogs & slaves would get micro-chips and invisible fence collars.
3) Hitler's Aryans & our Southern Colonels would have got along very well.

all the trolls would be posting on ar15.csa

Welfare, AFDC, WIC, and all the rest of the .gov freebies would have never been born...the "You don't work...you don't eat" rule would still be in effect.
Maybe the northern states would have emplemented it...but then you would have had all the blacks go north in droves, resulting in massive riots in large inner city areas. (southern whites would have most likely stayed on the farm)

CSA would have expanded into Mexico.
Cuba would have become a CSA state , and Fidel Castro would have only been a chauffeur.

The Panama Canal would have been renamed "The Stonewall Jackson Canal" and China would have never been able to control it like now.

Jimmy Carter would have remained a Georgia peanut farmer.

The Klan would have never been born , since it was formed initially as a deterrent to northern carpetbaggers and southern scaliwags from stealing southern lands and property.

Instructions for things you buy would only be written in english.

Gold and Silver would still be a monetary tool, since each state would probably continue printing their own money.

No FICA or Medicare taxes would be taken out of your paycheck.

The federal govt would be about 1/100th the size it is today, congressmen would actually have to have a REAL job to feed their families in addition to their congressional duties.

The Supreme Court would still be meeting in that tiny closet of a meeting room they started out in.

If the South had won, reunification would have reoccurred as soon as the economic warfare waged upon the south by the north was ended. The tariffs would have gone away and a people with a common heritage would have come together. Remember Lee, Jackson, etal. did not want two separate countries.

From an individual standpoint, we would be much freer and the federal government would be limited to its constitutional role.

By the way, slavery was expanding up to the Civil War. From 1820 to 1860, the population of slaves in the US more than doubled. The reason for this? The cotton gin made cotton plantations hugely profitable. The profit margin for a southern plantation owner was much greater than that enjoyed by a northern industrialist.

Quoted: I would suddenly develop the urge to marry my first cousin and throw away all my toothbrushes..

If you are gonna make fun, at least do it right.  That would be "toofbrushes".

Slavery would have ended as the rest of the world embargoed Southern cotton.

The North, England, et al, had all banned slavery. The South would have followed eventually, especially after they had developed a manufacturing base (they would have had to).

Cynthia McKinney would be scrubbing laundry instead of talking shit about how bad life is for blacks.

Quoted: Slavery would have ended as the rest of the world embargoed Southern cotton. The North, England, et al, had all banned slavery. The South would have followed eventually, especially after they had developed a manufacturing base (they would have had to).

Umm....no. Sorry bro, but guess who was a major purchaser or southern cotton and a supporter of the south? Great Britain.

But you are right that the south would have to develop a manufacturing base.

The South would be a fanatical Christian Country......Either you accept jesus as your saviour or you get strung up to a tree.....not too different than the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Personally, I Love the South and My Ancestors fought and died for the CSA......But looking at the existing groups who are fighting for southern independance, I'm convinced that if you are not a christian, you do not belong in their south......Its actually, very disappointing.

GhostCat

Quoted: Quoted: From war's end, about five years to the beginning of substantial trade and industrial rejuvination on both sides.  European powers would have attempted to have greater influence in the two countries.   The two nations would have established reasonably positive diplomatic relations within ten years.  Slavery, already in the decline, would have been over by around 1900.  Voluntary reunification (not simply re-entry of southern states) by around WWI. That's one scenario I've thought of.  Maybe I should flesh it out and add to the alternate history genre. Jim You are probably right.  The South was too poor to exist on its own.  Not enough industry.

The more I think of it, the more this seems the most plausible course of events. America just isn't meant to be in two halves. I do think that is it were done this way, segregation might have lasted a bit longer and the south might not be so damn poor, as a result of vengeful union policies. (On the other hand, if the south were less poor, then they might not feel as compelled to fall back on their "traditions" and thus segregation might have even ended shorter than it did.)

Quoted: Damn Yankees would not have taken over FL.

I hope your talkin bout when they took over east L.A. (lower Alabama) .

Cause that blisters my butt also.


But to answer the guys question, thier would be many more dentist .....lol.

Quoted: Then America would never have become the strong country that we know it to be today. We'd be just like europe. A bunch of factioned nations... I'm glad the south lost.

+1

I wish America was not the "strong" country it is today, as this has meant a great loss in our freedoms.
Things would be a lot better if slavery had been "contained" and not allowed to spread.

Quoted: Cynthia McKinney would be scrubbing laundry instead of talking shit about how bad life is for blacks.

Quoted: Cynthia McKinney would be scrubbing laundry instead of talking shit about how bad life is for blacks.

I feel kinda bad but I laughed at that.

The Civil War was more about political fortunes (North was increasing in population, gaining more political strength and South didn't want to be run by DC and the North).  They decided to pull out before it was too late, but it turned out that it was already too late.

If it was about slavery, then the majority of Southern soldiers would probably not have been interested in dying for the "cause" of slavery (the overwhelming majority did not own slaves and most were aware that they never would).  They fought for states' rights (the right not to be controlled by "democracy" and mob rule like we have today).

Slavery would have been instantly obsolete as soon as the agricultural mechanical revolution hit...1890s to 1900s is about when that really started I believe.

More than likely, North and South would have re-unified at some point, or formed some sort of trade and immigration agreements so that people could move and trade freely.

Overall, we'd be living in a much more free society.  

The North was intellectually wrong in waging the war.  You cannot have a "free" assocation of states if it is held together by force.  Similarly in the Middle East, you cannot force people to be "free" or to believe what you believe.

my car would be in my driveway on blocks.I would throw away my TOOTH (singular)brush.  I would sit on the porch all day and say.. "It's hot today...not as hot as yersterday, but still hot today."

and I would know WTF grits and Okra are

Quoted: the country would be in pieces...  Much like Europe is today.  I'm sure Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California would be a spanish speaking country called Los Something.  African Americans would have eventually risen up against their fat white owners and taken over much of the south resulting in some very good looking inter-racial children.  The Klan would have retreated into the bible belt.  the North would have fallen back under English control with the lease running out just a few years ago.  And I'd be drinking vodka with the russians because the CSA would have NEVER won the cold war. ~Dg84

WTF???

Hee Haw would be the longest running TV show in CSA history.

Quoted: From war's end, about five years to the beginning of substantial trade and industrial rejuvination on both sides.  European powers would have attempted to have greater influence in the two countries.   The two nations would have established reasonably positive diplomatic relations within ten years.  Slavery, already in the decline, would have been over by around 1900.  Voluntary reunification (not simply re-entry of southern states) by around WWI. That's one scenario I've thought of.  Maybe I should flesh it out and add to the alternate history genre. Jim

I think this is pretty well on target.

Slavery [usually tauted by Yankees as "the" cause of the war] was in decline.

I think the USA today is a more powerful, prosperous nation than the two separate CSA/USA states would have been.

We probably would not have the influence around the world that we do today.

Odds are we wouldn't be up to our armpits in illegal aliens, either.

We'd be speaking German now.
The continent, if we had avoided being overrun in WW2, would be even further divided, and most of us would be living in conditions no better than what you see in Mexico today.

Quoted: The South would be a fanatical Christian Country......Either you accept jesus as your saviour or you get strung up to a tree.....not too different than the Taliban in Afghanistan.

eta: You're jokeing right?

Quoted: Cynthia McKinney would be scrubbing laundry instead of talking shit about how bad life is for blacks.

we'd all be eatin' grits and bacon grease for breakfast every morning.

every chick in America would have a sweet sounding voice, and look damn good, even the trailer park queens.

and everyone would have that hickory nut hairdo, drive vehicles with rebel flags painted on them, watch nascar, drink American made beer and smoke cheap cigerrettes, have 6 kids (5 of them illigitamate), own at least one pit bull and have two first names.



EDIT: hell the above sounds bout like my life, nevermind.

UGGGGH! what is it Robert Lee day again??? i thought that was in Febrero or something. ACtually if you wouldve won you could've kept all the black people down there instead of sending them up    north and could've built you dixie land utopia without our help. TOO BAD for us stupid yankees. Personally i would've been one of those Irish scum draft rioters tearing apart NYC and yelling "down with the union!!!!" "screw King Abraham!"

Quoted: Quoted: The South would be a fanatical Christian Country......Either you accept jesus as your saviour or you get strung up to a tree.....not too different than the Taliban in Afghanistan. eta: You're jokeing right?

No, I think he's right. Look how serious they take religion down there now. The only thing that reins them in now is the rest of the country.

Quoted: We'd be speaking German now. The continent, if we had avoided being overrun in WW2, would be even further divided, and most of us would be living in conditions no better than what you see in Mexico today.

At least we would have better cars....

and guns.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The South would be a fanatical Christian Country......Either you accept jesus as your saviour or you get strung up to a tree.....not too different than the Taliban in Afghanistan. eta: You're jokeing right? No, I think he's right. Look how serious they take religion down there now. The only thing that reins them in now is the rest of the country.

You guys really sound paranoid.

One thing about the War of Northern Aggression. It was not about slavery. The Yankee written history books do not mention that over 100,000 blacks voluntarily joined the Southern Armies to fight the Yankees. Doubt they were fighting to preserve slavery.

Quoted: One thing about the War of Northern Aggression. It was not about slavery. The Yankee written history books do not mention that over 100,000 blacks voluntarily joined the Southern Armies to fight the Yankees. Doubt they were fighting to preserve slavery.

NO, they did it for two reasons. One out of sheer ignorance, they got told by massa that an "invading army was comin to rape ALL the women" and second i would'd call it voluntary when they were promised their freedom in exchange. Voluntary is when the rebs would say to them "join us and fight, for no pay, cause your slaves, then afterwards you can go right back into the fields" I WONDER HOW MANY would've joined up then????

Quoted: One thing about the War of Northern Aggression. It was not about slavery. The Yankee written history books do not mention that over 100,000 blacks voluntarily joined the Southern Armies to fight the Yankees. Doubt they were fighting to preserve slavery.

Is that how you folks down South spin that?
ETA: from one source

But what many historians find outrageous and offensive are the claims being made by men like Mr. Condon Though he later revised his estimate to 50,000 blacks who "served in the Confederate Army," Mr, Smith at American University puts the number of black rebels "actually shooting people" at 30,000. Most historians regard this figure as inflated-by almost 30,000.

"It's pure fantasy," contends James McPherson, a Princeton historian and one of the nation's leading Civil War scholars. Adds Edwin Bearss, historian emeritus at the National Park Service: "It's b.s., wishful thinking." Robert Krick, author of 10 books on the Confederacy, has studied the records of 150,000 Southern soldiers and found fewer than a dozen were black. "Of course, if I documented 12. someone would start adding zeros," he says.


Tainted History?
These and other scholars say claims about black rebels derive from unreliable anecdotes, a blurring of soldiers and laborers, and the rapid spread on the Internet of what Mr. McPherson calls ''pseudohistory.'' Thousands of blacks did accompany rebel troops - as servants, cooks, teamsters and musicians. Most were slaves who served involuntarily; until the final days of the war, the Confederacy staunchly refused to enlist black soldiers.

Some blacks carried guns for their masters and wore spare or castoff uniforms, which may help explain eyewitness accounts of blacks units. But any blacks who actually fought did so unofficially, either out of personal loyalty or self-defense. many historians say.

They also bristle at what they see as the disingenuous twist on political correctness fueling the black Confederate fad. "it's a search for a multicultural Confederacy, a desperate desire to feel better about your ancestors," says Leslie Rowland, a University of Maryland historian. "if you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy."

David Blight, an Amherst College historian, likens the trend to bygone notions about happy "plantation darkies." Confederate groups invited devoted ex-slaves to reunions and even won Senate approval in 1923 for a "mammy" monument in Washington (it was never built). Black Confederates, Mr. Blight says, are a new and more palatable way to "legitimize the Confederacy."

http://members.aol.com/neoconfeds/thorwitz.htm

or how about this one:

http://www2.netdoor.com/~jgh/mobile.html

Quoted: We'd be speaking German now. The continent, if we had avoided being overrun in WW2, would be even further divided, and most of us would be living in conditions no better than what you see in Mexico today.

My God, where do you people come up with this nonsense?

Quoted: Quoted: We'd be speaking German now. The continent, if we had avoided being overrun in WW2, would be even further divided, and most of us would be living in conditions no better than what you see in Mexico today. My God, where do you people come up with this nonsense?

Becaue I don't think its nonsense at all. Dividing the country would have created a Third World mishmash of smaller nations that would not have us be anywhere near what we are today as a unified nation.