Again, I will say that terrorism, the war on terror, fundamentalist islam, and everything else that all of you are talking about has little to nothing to do with religion. It is natural resources, economics, and politics that have caused all of the above. In that order. Religion, religious ethics, and culture are little more than sociological reactions to those forces anyway

Out of the mouth of one of my socialist frat brothers.  All I could do was shake my head.  So other than ignore him, how should I relpy?  I know all that jazz about fighting on the internet, but he is the type that talks a mad game on the internet.  What would you say to that?  If it's good, I may just cut and paste.

Quoted: Again, I will say that terrorism, the war on terror, fundamentalist islam, and everything else that all of you are talking about has little to nothing to do with religion. It is natural resources, economics, and politics that have caused all of the above. In that order. Religion, religious ethics, and culture are little more than sociological reactions to those forces anyway Out of the mouth of one of my socialist frat brothers.  All I could do was shake my head.  So other than ignore him, how should I relpy?  I know all that jazz about fighting on the internet, but he is the type that talks a mad game on the internet.  What would you say to that?  If it's good, I may just cut and paste.

Uhm... he is right. Religions are used as a scapegoat, as an excuse, for the actions of many. Yasser Arafat used terrorism to unite his people and consolidate power and finances; Al-Qaida is using terrorism to sway its followers' vision away from their own societal ills and religious perversions.

In the end, all wars, all actions, are not based upon a "higher calling", but on simple greed,anger, mistrust, and other basic human instincts of self preservation.

Terrorism itself is not tied to religion but in the case of al Qaida it definitely plays a role.  However the other things mentioned are definitely in play as well.

The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example:

"I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12

Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them.

Well, when a man (Bin Laden) hates us, and sites our presence in his "Holy Land" as the cheif reason, and when the people fighting us yell "Allah Akbar" (Allah is great), I think it's pretty simple as to whats at the root of it all.  

When the people who are committing suicide bombings are brought up in Madrasses (Islamic religious schools) believing that, according to their holy book - the Koran, they will sit at the right hand of god and get to bang 72 virgins in heaven if they kill infadels (people of other religions), I think it just strengthens the case that religion is at least an important factor in terrorism.  

After all, we don't see Christians or Budists commiting suicide bombings screaming "Praise Jesus!" or "Budda is Great!"


-K

Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them.

Why do you pay money to hang out with socialists?

Go find some real friends to hang out with for free.

It was a local frat - only paid for beer and stuff...

I know its been beat to death, but I honestly think religion does play a primary role and is not a secondary cause or effect.


I didnt see any Jewish terrorists after the Holocost, and have only seen a few people do anything criminal in the name of Judism...

I would doubt that every place that breeds Islamoterrorists happens to have societaly uniqe mitigating factors.

Quoted: Well, when a man (Bin Laden) hates us, and sites our presence in his "Holy Land" as the cheif reason, and when the people fighting us yell "Allah Akbar" (Allah is great), I think it's pretty simple as to whats at the root of it all.

God is a major part of Arabic culture, and praising God, thanking Him, asking for His assistance, are common parts of Arabic speech, even among non-Muslims.

When the people who are committing suicide bombings are brought up in Madrasses (Islamic religious schools) believing that, according to their holy book - the Koran, they will sit at the right hand of god and get to bang 72 virgins in heaven if they kill infadels (people of other religions), I think it just strengthens the case that religion is at least an important factor in terrorism.

Man, I sure wish I could find where my 72 virgins are promised for killing infidels, I would sign right up... oh wait, there aren't any promised, my bad.

After all, we don't see Christians or Budists commiting suicide bombings screaming "Praise Jesus!" or "Budda is Great!" -K

Because Western culture is incredibly secular, and mentioning God is usually reserved for very few cases in public speaking, as compared Arabic society as I mentioned. Buddhists don't believe in a god, and don't really worship anything... technically Buddhism isn't a religion, it is a way of thought(which is why you can be both Christian and Buddhist).

Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg

What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt?

Quoted: I didnt see any Jewish terrorists after the Holocost, and have only seen a few people do anything criminal in the name of Judism...

Blowing up hotels, butchering British soldiers, and gunning people down while they are praying, all done in the name of promoting Judaism and Zionism in the Middle East.

I would doubt that every place that breeds Islamoterrorists happens to have societaly uniqe mitigating factors.

incredible levels of poverty... check.
ruthless dictators who control every aspect of your life... check.
a culture that has a persecution complex... check.

Nooooo......... none of these things could promote violence in people. For other societies which had terrorist uprisings, look at: Cuba, China, Nepal, Tibet, Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, South Africa, Colombia,... the list goes on.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt?

You think that's bad you should check out the hardcore stuff in the Old Testament!

OK, here's another one:

"Not equal are those Believers who sit and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons.  Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight than to those who sit. -Surah 4:95

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt?

Muslim, and sick of people that are too retarded to bother looking into context, commentaries, and anything beyond just reading individual sentences from a book that is basically poetry(please tell me you read poetry in your highschool literature classes and understand how individual verses of a poem cannot be taken out of the whole, and in many cases have to be interpreted based upon the circumstances the writer was in at the time).

incredible levels of poverty... check. ruthless dictators who control every aspect of your life... check. a culture that has a persecution complex... check. Nooooo......... none of these things could promote violence in people. For other societies which had terrorist uprisings, look at: Cuba, China, Nepal, Tibet, Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, South Africa, Colombia,... the list goes on.

But "god" didnt play a part in all of those places and produce the same long running effects..
Good point though.

Quoted: OK, here's another one: "Not equal are those Believers who sit and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons.  Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight than to those who sit. -Surah 4:95

Support God with all your heart and soul, and dedicate your worldly possessions to Him -> increase chances of getting into Paradise... sounds like another religion I know of.

The old testament is full of all kinds of crazy shit, just like the Quran.  The difference is, Muslims still seem to follow it...They are still stuck in primitive times (with no end to this in sight).  I'm only saying this in case someone says "Jews and Christians don't have this sort of stuff in their holy book".  Anyone who claims that current Islam does not support or condone such behavior is blind.  


 
 *  At I Samuel 15:3, the prophet Samuel gives King Saul this commandment from the Lord: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
   * Ezekiel 9:4-7 has this harrowing account: "And the Lord said unto him, Go through . . . the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark. . . ."
   * Hosea 13:16 describes a punishment from the Lord: "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
   * Deuteronomy 32:23-25 says that after the Israelites incited God's jealousy by worshiping other gods, he vowed: "I will spend mine arrows upon them. . . . The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs."
   * In Numbers chapter 31, the Lord approves of these instructions that Moses gave to the Israelite soldiers about how to treat certain women and children captured in war: "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
   * Isaiah 13:9,15-18 contains this message from God: "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger. . . . Every one that is found shall be thrust through. . . . Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes . . . and their wives ravished. Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them. . . . [T]hey shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not spare children."

Quoted: incredible levels of poverty... check. ruthless dictators who control every aspect of your life... check. a culture that has a persecution complex... check. Nooooo......... none of these things could promote violence in people. For other societies which had terrorist uprisings, look at: Cuba, China, Nepal, Tibet, Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, South Africa, Colombia,... the list goes on. But "god" didnt play a part in all of those places and produce the same long running effects.. Good point though.

"same long running effects"... taken a look at China recently? Killing peaceful pro-democracy/pro-religion supporters, killing over 40 million people to remove adherents to the "old culture", censorship of free speech, prohibition on religions other than that of the state(Atheism)... sounds an awful lot like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other backwards countries.

I dont mean to isolate Islam or start the religion argument, I just disagreed with his premise that Religion doesnt have a primary role.  I think it does.  I think that (islam and defense of islamic land and values) has motivated a large # of people to participate in current conflicts that might not if it were a Muslim on Muslim conflict.
Make sense?

Somewhere, a Mosque is missing its idiot.
Just kidding; it was too good an opportunity to give up.  In fact, that is great sig line material!

Quoted: Quoted: Again, I will say that terrorism, the war on terror, fundamentalist islam, and everything else that all of you are talking about has little to nothing to do with religion. It is natural resources, economics, and politics that have caused all of the above. In that order. Religion, religious ethics, and culture are little more than sociological reactions to those forces anyway Out of the mouth of one of my socialist frat brothers.  All I could do was shake my head.  So other than ignore him, how should I relpy?  I know all that jazz about fighting on the internet, but he is the type that talks a mad game on the internet.  What would you say to that?  If it's good, I may just cut and paste. Uhm... he is right. Religions are used as a scapegoat, as an excuse, for the actions of many. Yasser Arafat used terrorism to unite his people and consolidate power and finances; Al-Qaida is using terrorism to sway its followers' vision away from their own societal ills and religious perversions. In the end, all wars, all actions, are not based upon a "higher calling", but on simple greed,anger, mistrust, and other basic human instincts of self preservation.

Ummm....  Some religions use terror to prevent their own from jumping ship. Weren't you just recently condoning this?  Or does executing any who convert not count as terrorist tactics?  I guess I'm just not up on 8th century standards of justice. Care to enlighten?

And to say the current war has nothing to do with religion is simply dishonest, not to mention ridiculous.

Quoted: I dont mean to isolate Islam or start the religion argument, I just disagreed with his premise that Religion doesnt have a primary role.  I think it does.  I think that (islam and defense of islamic land and values) has motivated a large # of people to participate in current conflicts that might not if it were a Muslim on Muslim conflict. Make sense?

Only thing that Islam has is the concept that every Muslim is a brother/sister to every other Muslim, atleast in faith, and that just like you would seek vengeance on your biological sister/brother's rapist/murderer, you should do such for your brothers/sisters in faith. Of course, just like there are fights between brothers and sisters in the biological sense, the same thing happens in Islam; however, since it is on a larger scale, the fights tend to turn bloody and bodies start filling the streets.

Must.... resist urge... to post..... picture.......

He's basically saying there's no such thing as a religiously motivated conflict.  Ask him if he thinks the Crusades were also caused by economic factors and scarcity of natural resources.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt? Muslim, and sick of people that are too retarded to bother looking into context, commentaries, and anything beyond just reading individual sentences from a book that is basically poetry(please tell me you read poetry in your highschool literature classes and understand how individual verses of a poem cannot be taken out of the whole, and in many cases have to be interpreted based upon the circumstances the writer was in at the time).

Sorry about that.  Stand by while I type the entire book...

I see where you are coming from...
Isn't that what makes it inherently different then?

Quoted: He's basically saying there's no such thing as a religiously motivated conflict.  Ask him if he thinks the Crusades were also caused by economic factors and scarcity of natural resources.

Good one!  

Quoted: Ummm....  Some religions use terror to prevent their own from jumping ship. Weren't you just recently condoning this?  Or does executing any who convert not count as terrorist tactics?  I guess I'm just not up on 8th century standards of justice. Care to enlighten?

killing apostates is.... technically allowed; however, not right now, as there is not a unified Islamic state. Also, taking into consideration the times, imprisonment for apostacy or simply leaving the person the fuck alone is actually more appropriate. It is rather tribal I will admit, and in fact you can sort of view Islam as a tribe - if you leave a tribe, you are usually either exiled or killed as you are a far more dangerous enemy, as you have been in the tribe and still dislike it, while outsiders are arrogant and can be forgiven if they don't trust or like the tribe.

And to say the current war has nothing to do with religion is simply dishonest, not to mention ridiculous.

It has some to do with a religion, but it is not the overwhelming cause. The main cause is that people like to be left the fuck alone, and don't like it when someone forces them to do something they don't want to do.

Religion is nothing more than a good salesman (Priest/Cleric) selling a product.....or brainwashing the masses........Once he sells them on the idea and the brainwashing is complete, the Priest or Cleric can instruct his followers to do whatever he wishes........including terrorist activities.
Bottom Line is RELIGION=TERRORISM

GhostCat

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt? Muslim, and sick of people that are too retarded to bother looking into context, commentaries, and anything beyond just reading individual sentences from a book that is basically poetry(please tell me you read poetry in your highschool literature classes and understand how individual verses of a poem cannot be taken out of the whole, and in many cases have to be interpreted based upon the circumstances the writer was in at the time). Sorry about that.  Stand by while I type the entire book...

don't bother doing that, just read the book and the various commentaries from the major scholars(some of the commentaries are from the 1100's and 1200's) so you can gather what the interpretation of events/verses was near the beginning of Islam's history, and compare it to the outright stupid interpretation Al-Qaida/ARFCom takes.

Quoted: Quoted: Ummm....  Some religions use terror to prevent their own from jumping ship. Weren't you just recently condoning this?  Or does executing any who convert not count as terrorist tactics?  I guess I'm just not up on 8th century standards of justice. Care to enlighten? killing apostates is.... technically allowed; however, not right now, as there is not a unified Islamic state. Also, taking into consideration the times, imprisonment for apostacy or simply leaving the person the fuck alone is actually more appropriate. It is rather tribal I will admit, and in fact you can sort of view Islam as a tribe - if you leave a tribe, you are usually either exiled or killed as you are a far more dangerous enemy, as you have been in the tribe and still dislike it, while outsiders are arrogant and can be forgiven if they don't trust or like the tribe.

I'm guessing a unified state means the whole world under Islam.  

And to say the current war has nothing to do with religion is simply dishonest, not to mention ridiculous. It has some to do with a religion, but it is not the overwhelming cause. The main cause is that people like to be left the fuck alone, and don't like it when someone forces them to do something they don't want to do.

Dont' want to do..... Like be forced to convert to Islam?  The contradictions are too numerous to keep track of.

Quoted: Must.... resist urge... to post..... picture.......

You mean this one...



...or how about this little jem...

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."

As rendered by Omar Ahmad, co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).  

That's right, keep preaching that terrorism has nothing to do woth religion...

Quoted: He's basically saying there's no such thing as a religiously motivated conflict.  Ask him if he thinks the Crusades were also caused by economic factors and scarcity of natural resources.

There are those that think terrorism is just politics, and being "apolitical" means that the terrorists won't hurt them. Kind of like those 3 folks that were just rescued in Iraq, or the other non-political aid groups that get attacked by Al Queada in Iran and Iraq.  

Quoted: Quoted: He's basically saying there's no such thing as a religiously motivated conflict.  Ask him if he thinks the Crusades were also caused by economic factors and scarcity of natural resources. Good one!

Crusades were caused due to inherent sense of danger to self and the danger to one's possessions.

The Catholic church got a large percentage of its money from the pilgrimage stations along the route to Jerusalem, and was willing to kill/prevent Jews/Muslims/Pagans from controlling those profitable centers. They honestly didn't give a shit about their Christians brothers, because they waited until the Byzantines were falling from power until they actually did anything, and when they did, they raped/burned/pillaged everything they could, including Constantinople and other major Christian centers(The Catholics hated Eastern Orthodox members, remember?).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ummm....  Some religions use terror to prevent their own from jumping ship. Weren't you just recently condoning this?  Or does executing any who convert not count as terrorist tactics?  I guess I'm just not up on 8th century standards of justice. Care to enlighten? killing apostates is.... technically allowed; however, not right now, as there is not a unified Islamic state. Also, taking into consideration the times, imprisonment for apostacy or simply leaving the person the fuck alone is actually more appropriate. It is rather tribal I will admit, and in fact you can sort of view Islam as a tribe - if you leave a tribe, you are usually either exiled or killed as you are a far more dangerous enemy, as you have been in the tribe and still dislike it, while outsiders are arrogant and can be forgiven if they don't trust or like the tribe. I'm guessing a unified state means the whole world under Islam.

Nope, just the entirety of the Middle East.

And to say the current war has nothing to do with religion is simply dishonest, not to mention ridiculous. It has some to do with a religion, but it is not the overwhelming cause. The main cause is that people like to be left the fuck alone, and don't like it when someone forces them to do something they don't want to do. Dont' want to do..... Like be forced to convert to Islam?  The contradictions are too numerous to keep track of.

You aren't forced to convert to Islam, and I fail to see how a 2% tax for being Jewish or Christian(Muslims have to pay ~2% of their income every year to charity) is treating anyone unequally.

Quoted: Quoted: Must.... resist urge... to post..... picture....... You mean this one... worm.his.no/VIT/HUM/kalvig/bilder/islam%20will%20dominate.jpg ...or how about this little jem... "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." As rendered by Omar Ahmad, co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).   That's right, keep preaching that terrorism has nothing to do woth religion...

Hmm... why do Christians have missionaries, it couldn't be becaues they want everyone to have salvation and for the world to become Christian... Nooooo, that couldn't be it

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt? Muslim, and sick of people that are too retarded to bother looking into context, commentaries, and anything beyond just reading individual sentences from a book that is basically poetry(please tell me you read poetry in your highschool literature classes and understand how individual verses of a poem cannot be taken out of the whole, and in many cases have to be interpreted based upon the circumstances the writer was in at the time). Sorry about that.  Stand by while I type the entire book... don't bother doing that, just read the book and the various commentaries from the major scholars(some of the commentaries are from the 1100's and 1200's) so you can gather what the interpretation of events/verses was near the beginning of Islam's history, and compare it to the outright stupid interpretation Al-Qaida/ARFCom takes.

Where have you been for the last 30 years?

Quoted: Quoted: Must.... resist urge... to post..... picture....... You mean this one... worm.his.no/VIT/HUM/kalvig/bilder/islam%20will%20dominate.jpg

No, the one that we're not supposed to ever use on here ever again

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt? Muslim, and sick of people that are too retarded to bother looking into context, commentaries, and anything beyond just reading individual sentences from a book that is basically poetry(please tell me you read poetry in your highschool literature classes and understand how individual verses of a poem cannot be taken out of the whole, and in many cases have to be interpreted based upon the circumstances the writer was in at the time). Sorry about that.  Stand by while I type the entire book... don't bother doing that, just read the book and the various commentaries from the major scholars(some of the commentaries are from the 1100's and 1200's) so you can gather what the interpretation of events/verses was near the beginning of Islam's history, and compare it to the outright stupid interpretation Al-Qaida/ARFCom takes. Where have you been for the last 30 years?

Yeah, people following a Saudi Arabian bedouin's interpretation of the Qur'an are the "true believers" of Islam, and David Koresh really was the Messiah, Christians were just blind to it

Quoted: You aren't forced to convert to Islam, and I fail to see how a 2% tax for being Jewish or Christian(Muslims have to pay ~2% of their income every year to charity) is treating anyone unequally.

Over my dead f*cking body. I don't let Christians or Jews take my money for their religious use either (unless I voluntarily give it to them). Don't you have to be a government to levy a tax? Doesn't that mean that even the USA has to become an islamic state in order to make this all legal? Afterall, it wouldn't be fair to tax only the infidels living in the middle east would it?

Try being honest for once.

ETA: It seems to me the tax for being Jewish these days is death. That hardly seems fair.

Quoted: Quoted: You aren't forced to convert to Islam, and I fail to see how a 2% tax for being Jewish or Christian(Muslims have to pay ~2% of their income every year to charity) is treating anyone unequally. Over my dead f*cking body. I don't let Christians or Jews take my money for their religious use either (unless I voluntarily give it to them). Don't you have to be a government to levy a tax? Doesn't that mean that even the USA has to become an islamic state in order to make this all legal? Afterall, it wouldn't be fair to tax only the infidels living in the middle east would it? Try being honest for once.

Islam considers itself a state, the lands in which it has control are ruled by the Caliphate, thus Islam IS the government, and the only taxes it is allowed to levy against the people in its realm are the jizya, from non-Muslims, and the zakat,from Muslims only. This is why you can go over to Saudi Arabia right now, make 300K as an engineer, and pay only 0% of your money to taxes.

EDIT: I am not saying I support any of this, just detailing the facts here.

Terrorism 101

Terror and Terrorism is the weapon of choice by any group that has neither the political or military ability to achieve it's goals.  By using terror against otherwise innocent people, the terrorist hope to make the people and or the government accede to their wishes, and especially to move in a direction favorable to the terrorists goals and antithetical to the people and government.

"Any group" can be  a political group, religious group, fanatical group or any people or persons that have decided that the ends justify the means.  In many cases this can be viewed as a religious or quasi-religious duty.

The Irgun - Political and Religious goals

The PLO - Primarily political goals with religious undertones

The IRA - Some have religious goals, some political and some want to impose a marxist state on the whole island.

al Quaeda - Primarily religiious fanticism with some political undertones

PETA - Quasi religious belief in the rights of dumb animals

ELF - Quasi-religious belief in environmentalism

Black Panthers, Brown Berets, Symbionese Liberation Army, SDS, Weather Group, Japanese Red Army, Huks, New Peoples Army, Mau Mau, Viet-Cong, etc etc etc  Jim Kopp

Quoted: EDIT: I am not saying I support any of this, just detailing the facts here.

You supported executing that guy in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity. There's a fact for ya. I can't imagine what other stuff you'd support, especially if islam had control of this country.


Here's a link to the thread.

Quoted: I have no problem, after thinking it through, on executing people who leave the faith; I may be a lapsed Muslim, but I can never imagine totally leaving my faith, I personally would sooner die than do so. Execution for apostacy IMHO is a way to attempt to save the soul of the apostate before he commits too many sins, because hopefully Allah will forgive him of his transgression, for Allah knows best our deeds and actions and it is up to Him and Him alone to decide what happens to us when we die.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The response to your Frat buddy is to read him a passage from the Quran.  Here's an example: "I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers.  Smite ye above their necks..."  -Surah 8:12 Remember also that when you hear some Islamic terrorist on TV saying 'Islam is a religion of peace.  We don't believe in the killing of innocents', the only innocent people they mean are fellow Muslims!  There are no 'innocent' non-believers of Islam to them. www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg What?  Are you Muslim or something or does the truth hurt? Muslim, and sick of people that are too retarded to bother looking into context, commentaries, and anything beyond just reading individual sentences from a book that is basically poetry(please tell me you read poetry in your highschool literature classes and understand how individual verses of a poem cannot be taken out of the whole, and in many cases have to be interpreted based upon the circumstances the writer was in at the time). Sorry about that.  Stand by while I type the entire book... don't bother doing that, just read the book and the various commentaries from the major scholars(some of the commentaries are from the 1100's and 1200's) so you can gather what the interpretation of events/verses was near the beginning of Islam's history, and compare it to the outright stupid interpretation Al-Qaida/ARFCom takes. Where have you been for the last 30 years? Yeah, people following a Saudi Arabian bedouin's interpretation of the Qur'an are the "true believers" of Islam, and David Koresh really was the Messiah, Christians were just blind to it

The Quran is a religious book correct? You've just proven the point of the original post.  

Thanks for playing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He's basically saying there's no such thing as a religiously motivated conflict.  Ask him if he thinks the Crusades were also caused by economic factors and scarcity of natural resources. Good one!   Crusades were caused due to inherent sense of danger to self and the danger to one's possessions. The Catholic church got a large percentage of its money from the pilgrimage stations along the route to Jerusalem, and was willing to kill/prevent Jews/Muslims/Pagans from controlling those profitable centers. They honestly didn't give a shit about their Christians brothers, because they waited until the Byzantines were falling from power until they actually did anything, and when they did, they raped/burned/pillaged everything they could, including Constantinople and other major Christian centers(The Catholics hated Eastern Orthodox members, remember?).

You are correct in that the Catholic Church probably felt that way (and that the original cause was likely material).  However, the individual "crusaders" thought they were on a holy mission, and that they would receive full penance (at least the first crusade).  

Quoted: Out of the mouth of one of my socialist frat brothers.  All I could do was shake my head.  So other than ignore him, how should I relpy?  I know all that jazz about fighting on the internet, but he is the type that talks a mad game on the internet.  What would you say to that?  If it's good, I may just cut and paste.

Religion is used as a means to power in the middle east, much as it was used as a means to power in the middle ages in Europe.

It is not a fight about religion per se, but religion is a powerful ingredient in the mix.

If I tell you to go blow yourself up to help make me the absolute ruler of an area, how likely are you to do it? But if I tell you that God will give you 72 virgins for fighting the "infidel" and seeking to restore Muslim rule to the land (which would involve making me absolute dictator) and you are some poor dumb kid who doesn't know any better, you are far more likely to do my bidding.

In that case the religion becomes a powerful tool of compliance, by which I can promote my own personal interests and get lots of other people to sacrifice themselves for what I want.

That's what the terrorists are all about. They want power. Pure and simple. Their "religious" claims are made simply to try and recruit people and exercise control. The dirty little secret is that there are a whole lot of people whose base of power and wealth is the EXACT same thing over there.

There was a REASON why Sadaam suddenly became a good Muslim just before we invaded Iraq. He was attempting to use religion to promote his own personal interests.

Quoted: Again, I will say that terrorism, the war on terror, fundamentalist islam, and everything else that all of you are talking about has little to nothing to do with religion. It is natural resources, economics, and politics that have caused all of the above. In that order. Religion, religious ethics, and culture are little more than sociological reactions to those forces anyway Out of the mouth of one of my socialist frat brothers.  All I could do was shake my head.  So other than ignore him, how should I relpy?  I know all that jazz about fighting on the internet, but he is the type that talks a mad game on the internet.  What would you say to that?  If it's good, I may just cut and paste.

UH , first off dont listen to anything Premed-gunner says, he's a known troll and another "rebelgray" wannabe. You know a POST 9-11 Muslim convert who does it just to be "different" and cool and a rebel without a clue. Although no Jews never did anything to him suddenly because he converted to islam he decides to hate jews cause they stole "his" peoples land
Second, I suggest when confronted by Liberal know-it-all college hippies is to put Slayer in their MP3 player!! If that does shut them up the i suggest a second course. QUIZ HIM! quiz him on his knowledge of A. Islam B. current events C. History.
Of course in order to do this you have to know about it yourself, i say you bone up on it.
Then you will automatically without fail see their gaps in knowledge.
FILL THEM IN FOR THEM! tell them historical truths about Islam and her Imperialist history. Tell them about the current (last 100 years) state of affairs (Thailand, Philpines, Sudan, Nigeria, Chechnia, Kashmir, Pakistan, Indonesia, Isreal, Lebanon, Turkey, Bosnia, Kosovo, Mauratania, Aremenia, Greece, Cyprus, Egypt,Iran etc fucking etc.) Of course you must know about each of these countries and the atrocities being committed against the "infidels" there. Belive me the histiry of atroicities is an encyclopedia in itself.
In fact Once you know "a lot of the facts" I dont think it's possable to know all the incidents they are too many, telling people the truth is real easy. Even Muslims when confronted with these truths end up reverting to lame tactics to excuse it, like "moral equivalency", ad hominem, circular arguements etc.

Its funny that PreMed Gunner posts the AGNTSA poster, when everything he spouts can be be considered the same old tired propaganda you hear from every muslim apologist....

Sorry, truth is, islam has been at war with everyone since its inception. Always has been, always will be. Its the nature of the religion. The koran, no matter what platitudes and BS the apologists come up with clearly defines how a good muslim should behave. That includes either converting, subjugating or killing all non-believers. Waging jihad against non-believers. Telling the believers about the paradise that awaits for carrying out the tenants of allah and mohammed.

This is a religion that wants to put a man to death in Afghanistan because he "switched sides" to Christianity. That stones young women to death for being promiscuous because they show some arm or an ankle. That tacitly allows girls less than 10 to be married and abused for the rest of their lives. They hung a girl in Iran for promiscuosness for allowing herself to be raped...They fly planes into buildings, and cut the heads off hostages with dull knives. They kidnap their own supporters because they are not muslim.

Now some may argue that this isn't mainstream muslims, its fundamentalists. Doesn't matter to me, they are still representing their religion. Listen to some of these mullahs and imams crying for jihad, listen to what they say about those who speak out against islam. And the fact remains the the majority of muslims sure don't seem to have much bad to say about the fundamentalists.

No sir, I don't need a brick to fall on my head, or a plane to fly into my house to realize the truth, all I have to do is study history and watch current events.

Oh, and don't forget the koran tells the believers that to lie and obfuscate and confuse the infidels and non-believers about the truth until such time you can convert them or lop off their heads is proper and indeed the preferred tactic...so take what you hear from some with the proverbial grain of salt....

Quoted: He's basically saying there's no such thing as a religiously motivated conflict.  Ask him if he thinks the Crusades were also caused by economic factors and scarcity of natural resources.

Actually, I can make a pretty compelling argument that the crusades were primarily a political tool used by the papacy to assert leadership in a fractured Europe, and to tighten control over the miltary class.  The crusades also allowed the Western Catholic Church to project influence into an area that had been controlled by the Eastern Orthodox church.  

Quoted: He's basically saying there's no such thing as a religiously motivated conflict.  Ask him if he thinks the Crusades were also caused by economic factors ...

If he answers "Yes, greed." he will have been correct yet again.

Religion IS politics.

Quoted: If he answers "Yes, greed." he will have been correct yet again. Religion IS politics.

I wouldn't agree that religion IS politics, but I would heartily agree that when examining historical conflicts religion, politics, and economics swirl together into an almost indistinguishable mass of motivations that are the root causes of conflict.