User Panel
Posted: 3/22/2006 11:24:17 AM EDT
Pulled over in Kansas? Get ready to show your license, registration — and fingerprints
linkeroo If you are stopped by police in Kansas, don’t be surprised if the officer pulls out a little black box and takes your fingerprints. The gadget allows officers to identify people by fingerprints without hauling them to the police station. Over the next year the Kansas Bureau of Investigation will test 60 of the devices with law enforcement agencies around the state. State officials said similar tests are being planned for New York, Milwaukee and Hawaii. “This is definitely new,” said Gary Page, Overland Park Police Department crime lab. “It’s been talked about, but as far as I know they are not in use anywhere in the metro.” The tests in Kansas are part of a bigger $3.6 million upgrade to the KBI’s statewide fingerprint database, unveiled Tuesday by the KBI and Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline. ■ The system: Called the Automatic Fingerprint Identification System, it is a statewide database of more than 10 million fingerprints taken from people arrested in Kansas. The Missouri Highway Patrol maintains a similar database. Both systems link to the FBI fingerprint database. ■ How it works: In Kansas, 54 law enforcement agencies have traded the ink-and-paper fingerprinting method for biometric imaging, which electronically scans a digital image of the print. Sixty Missouri agencies use biometric scanning. Police also can scan the fingers of corpses and people they arrest to match them against prints in the system. Results are obtained in seconds instead of hours. The inked cards still used by some smaller departments are also scanned into the statewide systems. ■ Why upgrade? Kansas could no longer locate replacement parts or anyone to service the old system, which was launched in 1990 and upgraded in 1998. The first phase was funded with a $752,000 homeland security grant. The KBI is applying for similar grants to pay the balance. All upgrades should be completed by January 2007. ■ The portable devices: Police place a person’s two index fingers on a screen. Wireless technology sends the image to the database for comparison. Prints scanned in the field will not be stored. ■ What else is new: The system will analyze palm prints, which were stored but could not be read before. The system also will store mug shots and pictures of scars, tattoos and other identifying marks. ---------------------- Prints scanned in the field will not be stored... [Dr. Evil] Riiiight...[Dr. Evil] |
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The power of the state increases, the rights of the citizens decrease.
IBTUAFWTTIAGI In Before The Un-American Fucktards Who Think This Is A Good Idea |
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If try fingerprint people just for being pulled over, I imagine that would be challenged under a "search and seizure" constitutional challenge. But, if it is just a faster way of running prints on people they would have been allowed to haul off an fingerprint anyway, then good for them. Saves time, for the busy lawbreaker, like a drivethrough. |
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I just wanted to quote that because normally your English usage is excellent...for a foreigner anyway. ETA: Damn! I didn't get the original in time...but it's still jacked up! |
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I can see this being challenged, as forcing prints from someone could fall under search and seizure without warrant or arrest.
So they're doing this for ID purposes? I though that's what the driver's license was for.. |
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DOH! I even edited it, to add something, and never even noticed. |
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From the article, it looks like it's just something they're using on people they arrest. Just an upgrade from the ink-and-paper system and it allows prints to be taken in the field before they're hauled downtown. I don't think this is a big issue.
Now if they start printing everyone who gets pulled over for a bad brake light, it's going to get ugly. |
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And those get counterfeited. |
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Probably another step to get around fake IDs and to serve as a warrant check. AFIS is a pretty cool system (never used a roadside version though) |
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You know...if they used it to check immigration status and kicked out illegals I might be buyin' it.
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yeah, and sometimes fingerprints aren't 100%. maybe we should start checking DNA too. |
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This is Bullshit!! Talk about a violation of you 4th amendment rights.
Oh, but of course I forgot, silly me, the government is our friend......... |
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Care to share how you know that a verifiable print has been shared by two people? |
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care to share where i said a verifiable print was shared by two people? i was making a sarchastic suggestion anyhow... |
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We've had AFIS for years. Carry your driver's license and you'll never see it. Get arrested and you'll never get that nasty ink on your hands.
Of course, where would ARFCOM be without it's daily "The police state is coming !!! Prepare for Armegeddon!!!" posts? |
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This will not last long...
We have something called the 4th amendment which protects against unreasonable searches and seizures from the federal gov't, and the 14th amendment which applies the Bill of Rights to the states. if there is not a lawful arrest or warrant, this is not constitutional. |
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Don't know a damn thing about fingerprints, police procedures, AFIS or the 4th Amendment do you? |
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My prints are in the system as well a my DNA..
DNA so as to identify me if I get blown to a million tiny bits.. |
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well we already knew how YOU would feel about this |
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DNA is less specific than a set of fingerprints. |
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You said prints are not verifiable. Absent some factor making the print unreadable, they are very much " 100 % ". |
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Maybe I'm operating on minimul brain cells today but where did it say they would finger print during normal traffic stops?
I thought it made it sound like they could finger print in the field when they make an arrest. Maybe I need some coffee? |
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...and since thats not perfect either, why dont we implant chips into everyone at birth so they can just scan you and see who you are. If your not a criminal you have nothing to hide, right? I mean its for your safety, think of the children |
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They already have my DL,everything thing they need to know is right there.
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+1 Another case of selective law enforcement. |
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I saw one of those on COPS in Neveda. They caught a guy who violated his parole, he escaped and there was a warrant out for his arrest for over a year. He didn't give his name so they fingerprinted him on the spot. He's back in the slammer.
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Edit that please. Some bonehead will read it and think it's a good idea. |
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Of course, that works both ways. As soon as I saw the title I knew who would be posting and exactly what they would say. It's funny as hell really, a system that's been in widespread use (along with DNA for that matter) for over a decade, and the first mention of it on GD drives tinfoil guys to a frenzy. For all you guys foaming at the mouth about 4th Amendment etc, care to explain WHY you think it's a violation? (This should be good) |
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There is a difference between automatically fingerprinting everyone and just fingerprinting those who cannot show i.d. IMHO the Texas system is fine if its just for those without i.d. More importantly, the database had better NOT include state bar records. Once they know I'm a lawyer there is no way I'm getting out of the ticket. |
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that pretty much proves my very general statement right there, but there really isn't any need to debate this. it was a J-O-K-E. |
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I don't see where it proves anything, but okkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. |
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Don't look now, but we already do. WHERE have you guys been? |
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Is that for every stop?
Are the pirnts stored if you come back "clean"? |
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There you go. The header in the article is the only place that implies that this will be used in every traffic stop. People who are driving without their drivers licenses are generally losers anyway, the same kind of folks who have no insurance and a few outstanding warrants. If all your docs are on hand and current, it's not even an issue. |
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The article stated the prints arent stored in any case (with the road unit). |
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About two years ago I was printed twice within a few months.. Once was ink down at the PD, once was digital through a private firm (Sagem Morpho), doing background checks. Of the two, the ink and paper PD prints took less time even if one included the time to Gojo the ink off. The digital prints were done on a supremely shitty system that must've taken 7 tries per finger to get right.
Right or wrong, I hope the KS cops got a better system than those jokers were using. |
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I see the same idiots still haven't bothered to learn the difference between the 4th and 5th Amendments. 4th pertains to searches and seizures, 5th to self-incrimination. Not that either are involved here.
this now makes it 562 times the sky has fallen this year. |
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i'll burn off my finger prints before i let someone take them "just because"
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Nobody's doing it "just because" Burn, slice, dice or boil your fingers, whatever is still there is considered a fingerprint regardless. Scar tissue still leaves a pattern. |
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I won't have a problem with that as long as the lady cop is cute |
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What I think he means is a false positive match. I setup a system using some of the best equipment and software that exists now, and I've had about four dozen false positive matches with a user population of about 3,000 with around 100,000 total scans. It uses Biometrika optical fingerprint scanners with software from Neurotechnologija. You will have a much worse rate of false positive matches with the 10 million population of fingerprints they're using.z |
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True but while you can still get a good fingerprint with ink and paper, damaged skin can make it impossible for those optical fingerprint scanners they're using to get a good scan. From trying four different high-end optical scanners, I found that they worked pretty well for office workers, but for the textile mill workers and women that worked in a sewing plant that the scanners didn't work well enough to get anywhere close to a usable scan. Fingertips that were simply damaged from use was enough damage to beat the system. Also, if the skin was damaged after the original fingerprint was taken, then it is less likely to match. I'm afraid more money will be wasted on these devices when a few stories are published about the very few times they worked rather than much more common case of when they failed.z |
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Over THREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION DOLLARS of "homeland security" tax dollars spent already on this system, with more to come. By the time they are finished it will probably be TWO MILLION or more. And that's just the actual money spent on the system, not accounting for government overhead. So exactly how many terrorist attacks will be prevented by this large Is this what our government has in mind for "homeland security"? Security against what, it's own citizenry? All I'm seeing is a bigger, more powerful police state striving for greater control of its subjects (or atleast that's how they seem to view us). Wasteful spending of precious, limited resources. Don't we still have unprotected mass transit systems, mass transit jet liners, and ocean ports? Wasn't Michael Chertoff (sp?) just today complaining about 14,000 chemical plants in the U.S. that don't all have adequate protection? What about our inadequately protected crops and water ways? Don't we have a multi-hundred-billion-dollar budget deficit and oh.. I don't know a 9 trillion dollar debt? |
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Hmm, and to think I already get a right thumb print from people driving w/o a license......
Brian |
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You should read our Bill of Rights again, sir.
It's that simple, you have no right to search my person or my property, unless you have a search warrant. My fingers are part of my person, thus, you may not search them without a warrant. Fingerprinting is searching them, you cannot deny that. The only right you really have, with respect to demanding identification, is if someone is driving a motor vehicle, in which case you may ask for their drivers license, only to confirm that they are certified to drive a motor vehicle. Otherwise, unless you arrest someone, or unless you have a search warrant, you have no right to any identification from them, period. . . If you're talking about fingerprinting people after they have been arrested for a crime, that's one thing. But if you are talking about fingerprinting them for any reason you damn well please, then you are violating the Constitution of the United States. |
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Crank back on the drama button. No one is doing anything for "any reason they damn well please". |
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Then every state that requires a thumbprint/fingerprint for a drivers license or licensing for child care employees etc is guilty of violating your civil rights..... The key to the 4th Amendment is that pesky word 'unreasonable' - kind of leaves things open to interpretation. Let me guess, you also believe a LEO is required to have a search warrant to draw blood in a DUI case. Brian |
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