Wow......just wow

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060320/ap_on_bi_ge/india_dell

Dell to Double Its Staff in India by 2009 1 hour, 51 minutes ago

NEW DELHI - Dell Inc. plans to double the number of its employees in India to 20,000 in three years, Chairman Michael Dell said Monday, in what appeared to be moves by the world's largest personal computer maker to beef up its presence in one of the world's fastest growing markets.


Although most of the new hiring will be made at the company's call centers, there will also be substantial recruitment at the its product testing center and a possible manufacturing plant.

The Round Rock, Texas-based company currently operates four call centers in India, a product testing center for corporate customers and a global software development center. Some 10,000 people are employed at these facilities.

"We will double our staff from the current level over the next three years," Dell told reporters during a visit to Bangalore, India's technology hub.

"There is a fantastic opportunity to attract talent (here)," he said. "We will ensure a major recruitment push in engineering talents."

Scores of Western companies have been cutting costs by shifting software development, engineering design and routine office functions to countries such as India, where English-speaking workers are plentiful and wages are low.

But Dell's plans don't appear to be limited to cost cutting, analysts said. They said Dell appears intent on increasing its share in India's fast-growing market for computers.

The company is also looking to set up a manufacturing center in India, a move that could help boost the sale of Dell computers here.

"We have been in discussions with a number of state governments in terms of infrastructure and logistics. We are yet to make a decision on the location of the plant," Dell said. He declined to give any timeframe for a decision.

"India is a market in its own rights. A (manufacturing) facility like this will help Dell to be close to its customers not just in India, but South Asia," said James McGregor, a Beijing-based economic analyst who monitors issues in India and China.

Earlier this year, on a trip to New Delhi, Dell Chief Executive Officer Kevin Rollins said his company's expansion plans in India were not limited to tapping talent, but that it also wanted to benefit from India's growing demand for computers.

Dell accounts for less than 4 percent of the 4 million computers sold annually in India, whereas the company's share in the global market is about 18 percent, he said.

Taxes levied by the Indian government on computers and computer parts are a major factor, resulting in higher prices for Dell products and sluggish sales. The Indian government imposes higher import taxes on fully assembled computers than computer parts, and Dell currently ships complete computer sets to India.

A domestic manufacturing facility would help the company avoid some taxes and boost its presence in India, where computer sales are expected to increase to 10 million annually over the next three to five years.

Dell currently operates nine plants around the world, six of them outside the United States.

Dell has some of the best computers on the market and I've been recommending them to people for over 10 years...that is all stopping now.  I will not support a tech company that openly flaunts the outsourcing of jobs.

Good.

This will force the US workforce to innovate more and move away from deadend, menial jobs. I consider it corporate Darwinism.

Additionally, with all of the jobs cropping up in India, the wages for technical disciplines (e.g. engineers) are increasing which is starting to make India less attractive. Capitalism is working by raising the standard of living in India.

Quoted: Good. This will force the US workforce to innovate more and move away from deadend, menial jobs. I consider it corporate Darwinism. Additionally, with all of the jobs cropping up in India, the wages for technical disciplines (e.g. engineers) are increasing which is starting to make India less attractive. Capitalism is working by raising the standard of living in India.

I work for a company that has call centers in India..Quite often I'm on conference calls where there are call centers from around the world.  There is a huge communication gap between US site management and India site management. Both sides speak English but something is missing..it might be cultural but its like a brick wall.

There's also a huge communication gap between Dell's US customers and the staffing of its India centers...Dell chose to ignore customer statisfaction for the easy buck..

I lost my job 3 years ago to India... It's not just Computer companies like Dell... I worked for Washington Mutual & they outsourced alot of their tech jobs... they are STILL sending tech jobs over there. So it's not like it "JUST" started happening. If I have to call someone for assistance and I end up in India or the Phillipeans... I tell them to send me back to the states and I tell them why...

We've sold our lands, our souls and now our jobs. And we wonder why the economy sucks & we have so much unemployment...



David

Quoted: Good. This will force the US workforce to innovate more and move away from deadend, menial jobs. I consider it corporate Darwinism. Additionally, with all of the jobs cropping up in India, the wages for technical disciplines (e.g. engineers) are increasing which is starting to make India less attractive. Capitalism is working by raising the standard of living in India.

What type of job do you do?  If it's not manual labor on construction located here in the US, a service job, or a government job it's very likely you could be out sourced as well.  Even the drive through clerks at McDonald's are getting outsourced!

And Zoom just doubled his resolve to never buy another product from Dell.  For years Dell has already had the worst customer service in the business, and it's just going to get worse.z

Quoted: I lost my job 3 years ago to India... It's not just Computer companies like Dell... I worked for Washington Mutual & they outsourced alot of their tech jobs... they are STILL sending tech jobs over there. So it's not like it "JUST" started happening. If I have to call someone for assistance and I end up in India or the Phillipeans... I tell them to send me back to the states and I tell them why... We've sold our lands, our souls and now our jobs. And we wonder why the economy sucks & we have so much unemployment... David

What country are YOU living in?  In the United States that I live in, unemployment is the lowest it has been in decades, our GDP is growing 3-5% annually, inflation is low, and our poorest people are living better than 95% of the rest of the world.

Quoted: Dell chose to ignore customer statisfaction for the easy buck..

The customers do, they want dirt cheap computers - that would necessarily mean that the manufacturer will have to cut costs whereever they can.

The phone goes green, green, so I pink up the phone and say yellow.

Quoted: Even the drive through clerks at McDonald's are getting outsourced!

source?

OK then, if I'm in the market for a quality computer and wanted a company that supported American jobs, which one to buy?

Good good good.

Quoted: Dell has some of the best computers on the market and I've been recommending them to people for over 10 years...that is all stopping now.  I will not support a tech company that openly flaunts the outsourcing of jobs.

Ha , good luck find one that doesn't

Thank you come again!

Quoted: Quoted: Even the drive through clerks at McDonald's are getting outsourced! source?

i couldnt find the source, but i read the story too. but if i remembr correcly, the "outsourcing" was between STATES, not countries, to avoid some type of tax law IIRC.

Quoted: Good. This will force the US workforce to innovate more and move away from deadend, menial jobs. I consider it corporate Darwinism. Additionally, with all of the jobs cropping up in India, the wages for technical disciplines (e.g. engineers) are increasing which is starting to make India less attractive. Capitalism is working by raising the standard of living in India.

Hey Cynic, are you a college student? You haven't had to innovate or retool have you? I mean, It all sounds good when the professor is telling it to you, but it's a very different story when you're the one living it. I hope that you lead a blessed life and never experience it. Sadly, I think you and my kids generation are going to have a harder time of it that mine did.

Quoted: OK then, if I'm in the market for a quality computer and wanted a company that supported American jobs, which one to buy?

If you can get over the fact that none of the parts are made here, you could always support your local computer shop and have them build you one. It's not only American, it's local. Plus, it's kinda cool having someone in your own town answer the phone when you've got a problem. Years ago when I worked in a small local shop, we even did warranty work on site in people's homes. I'm not sure we made any money at it, but the customers sure liked us.

Quoted: Good. This will force the US workforce to innovate more and move away from deadend, menial jobs. I consider it corporate Darwinism. Additionally, with all of the jobs cropping up in India, the wages for technical disciplines (e.g. engineers) are increasing which is starting to make India less attractive. Capitalism is working by raising the standard of living in India.

Bad.  When I call the freaking call center, I'd like to speak to someone who speaks decent English.

Quoted: Dell chose to ignore customer statisfaction for the easy buck..

That I can agree with. Hopefully the market will force them to reconsider, but I doubt it.

Quoted: What type of job do you do?  If it's not manual labor on construction located here in the US, a service job, or a government job it's very likely you could be out sourced as well.  Even the drive through clerks at McDonald's are getting outsourced!

I'm an engineer and, if it were not for my experience with "top notch" outsourcing firms, I would agree with you.

I've had indepth experience with eastern european and indian outsourcing firms (best in the business, supposedly) and I can say, without a doubt, that companies do not save a dime when they outsource engineering work. We wasted tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of man-hours trying to outsource a three month project to India. The could not do it and we cancelled the contract. They are not up to par with domestic engineers...it is a cultural thing.

This is the reason why I am not worried about losing my job.

And they experience the fact learned by others - call center reps in India cost 20% but you ned 7-8 times as many to get the same work done. False economy.

Quoted: Quoted: Even the drive through clerks at McDonald's are getting outsourced! source?

McDonald's may outsource drive-thru orders

Quoted: Hey Cynic, are you a college student?

Nope. Eight years in the industry. Lead engineer on a team of ten. Good try, tho.

Quoted: You haven't had to innovate or retool have you?

I came out of grad school and joined a networking firm (I had no networking experience). Within two years, became the lead engineer on my team. I then left that job for a company in a completely different sector with different technology, langauges, and methodologies (none of which I had any experience with). Once again, within two years was a lead engineer.

So, yeah, I've "retooled." Adapt or die.

Dell is just doing what Bush said they should do when he was in India. How can you blame them?

"There is a fantastic opportunity to attract talent (here)," he said. "We will ensure a major recruitment push in engineering talents."

It's not just call centers. Dell wants to build computers in India so they can be closer to their Indian buyers.

It's perfect for them. They outsource 50,000 tech support jobs to India and sell the tech support companies Dell computers. It's a win-win situation for Dell.

Like Cisco Systems said they want to become a Chinese company, Dell wants to become an Indian company.

Quoted: Quoted: Hey Cynic, are you a college student? Nope. Eight years in the industry. Lead engineer on a team of ten. Good try, tho. Quoted: You haven't had to innovate or retool have you? I came out of grad school and joined a networking firm (I had no networking experience). Within two years, became the lead engineer on my team. I then left that job for a company in a completely different sector with different technology, langauges, and methodologies (none of which I had any experience with). Once again, within two years was a lead engineer. So, yeah, I've "retooled." Adapt or die.

Tell us about your luck retooling when you are 40. Odds are you won't even be in the industry. Engineering has no future.

Quoted: Quoted: Dell has some of the best computers on the market and I've been recommending them to people for over 10 years...that is all stopping now.  I will not support a tech company that openly flaunts the outsourcing of jobs. Ha , good luck find one that doesn't

Gateway keeps most of their call centers in the US, except for a small one in the Phillipines.

Quoted: Quoted: What type of job do you do?  If it's not manual labor on construction located here in the US, a service job, or a government job it's very likely you could be out sourced as well.  Even the drive through clerks at McDonald's are getting outsourced! I'm an engineer and, if it were not for my experience with "top notch" outsourcing firms, I would agree with you. I've had indepth experience with eastern european and indian outsourcing firms (best in the business, supposedly) and I can say, without a doubt, that companies do not save a dime when they outsource engineering work. We wasted tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of man-hours trying to outsource a three month project to India. The could not do it and we cancelled the contract. They are not up to par with domestic engineers...it is a cultural thing. This is the reason why I am not worried about losing my job.

The same goes for programming jobs.  I think I read someonwhere that over 80% of all outsourcing either costs more money than if it was kept local or is considered an out right failure...but as you have seen that doesn't stop someone in management from getting the bright idea of saving a couple bucks in the short term by trying to outsource.  When your company wasted tens of thousands of dollars what would that money have gone to if they had just kept it local?  Meaning was someone laid off so that outsourcing project could be tried?  Was a new hire not hired because your company was going to try outsourcing?  Sure in the end it worked out for your company in the short term engineers just like yourself that would have been looking for work at your company wouldn't have been hired due to outsourcing meaning they probably took less pay just to find a job somewhere else.  You also do realize there are other companies that aren't top-notch that will accept or at least deal with substandard work for longer periods of time.  The longer they do the further they drive down the salaries of all engineers.  While you might be safe at your current company have you looked at the what ifs?  How easy would it be for you to find a similar job with similar pay in your area should something happen to your company?

Quoted: Dell has some of the best computers on the market

Not even close.

Their consumer products actually are built with sub-par components and proprietary designs.

Just look at their power supply fiasco.

I've had 3 Dell laptops (from companies, not mine) and each has had hard drive failures.

Dell actually is mid-tier in quality.

Quoted: You also do realize there are other companies that aren't top-notch that will accept or at least deal with substandard work for longer periods of time.  The longer they do the further they drive down the salaries of all engineers.  While you might be safe at your current company have you looked at the what ifs?  How easy would it be for you to find a similar job with similar pay in your area should something happen to your company?

That's true. The last large company I worked for spent millions to get an Oracle project completed in India. After 4 years and millions spent, they just gave up and went back to their HP-powered VT-101 system. The Indians could not get the new system to work. It was a POS.

The company had a lot of money and a high tolerance for mistakes. The millions lost meant nothing. In the process, they decimated their own IT dept., firing all their own engineers and sending all support and development to India.

There are hundreds or large companies that waste money this way to no ill effect. They don't care about quality, and they do not value quality workers. All they see is they can get an Indian for $9,000/year versus an American for $90,000/year.

So, if one works in any kind of corporate IT environment, his job is at risk in a major way.

In fact, the really great developers I knew when I first started are no longer in the field at all. The guys who were okay to good went into project management. They have jobs, but not great jobs. They often work until 10-11PM just so they can be on the telephone to manage teams in India. And the older guys are shown the door earlier than normal (say 55, as opposed to 59). What kind of future is that?

Anyway, it’s not an issue of how smart you are or how fast you can retool. In the end, you will be viewed as out of touch simply by virtue of your age and it will be very difficult to convince people otherwise. Add to that the fact you will demand more money than a kid and will cost the company more money in health costs, and you can see why this field has very few people in it over 40.

Quoted: Tell us about your luck retooling when you are 40. Odds are you won't even be in the industry. Engineering has no future.

If I am still "in the industry" in 12 years, I will have failed. The only way to make real money is to work for yourself. That is my attitude anyway.

Quoted: Quoted: Even the drive through clerks at McDonald's are getting outsourced! source?

Actually, those jobs are getting outsourced right here.  If you pull into a McDonalds drive-through in California, you are probably talking to a person at a call-center a block from my office in Grand Forks, ND.

Quoted: Quoted: Tell us about your luck retooling when you are 40. Odds are you won't even be in the industry. Engineering has no future. If I am still "in the industry" in 12 years, I will have failed.

Why do you say that?

That attitude is part of the problem and it is why engineering (especially software) is not considered a profession (which is the excuse employers use to screw people around).

Why is it any different from medicine or law or accounting? After 12 years in those fields people still consider you a noob. Or pharmacy? None of those fields are more complicated than engineering, yet they often pay better and have far more career longevity.

The only way to make real money is to work for yourself. That is my attitude anyway.

I totally agree with that, but out of the total pool of engineers, perhaps 1% or less go into business for themselves. If you are considering that, I know of several places where you can hang out and get advice.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tell us about your luck retooling when you are 40. Odds are you won't even be in the industry. Engineering has no future. If I am still "in the industry" in 12 years, I will have failed. Why do you say that?

Because corporate America sucks. You work 60 hour weeks so an executive can get a $100K bonus and you get stuck with a 4% raise.

Quoted: That attitude is part of the problem and it is why engineering (especially software) is not considered a profession (which is the excuse employers use to screw people around).

I love my job and I love my profession, but engineers will never have the same upward mobility as  sales or marketing because engineers are not part of the 'good ol' boys' club.

Quoted: Quoted: The only way to make real money is to work for yourself. That is my attitude anyway. I totally agree with that, but out of the total pool of engineers, perhaps 1% or less go into business for themselves. If you are considering that, I know of several places where you can hang out and get advice.

I'd love to be a part of that 1%. I'm already working 55 hour weeks, I might as well work that hard for myself and have complete control over my success. I'd appreciate any input you can give me.

Quoted: I'd love to be a part of that 1%. I'm already working 55 hour weeks, I might as well work that hard for myself and have complete control over my success. I'd appreciate any input you can give me.

Start here.

www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596013/sr=8-1/qid=1142882380/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-1305935-5381759?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Read these.

biztech.ericsink.com/index.html
blog.guykawasaki.com/
mymicroisv.com/
safarisoftware.typepad.com/
paulgraham.com/
scobleizer.wordpress.com/
www.sharewarepromotions.com/

Bullshit and ask questions here.

www.joelonsoftware.com/index.html

Between all those, you can get all you need to join the ranks of the micro-ISV movement.

Lots of good info on Web 2.0, AJAX, and other BS disguised as real innovation.

Quoted: Start here www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596013/sr=8-1/qid=1142882380/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-1305935-5381759?%5Fencoding=UTF8

I just bought the book from Amazon. Thanks for the info!

Well, I guess there will be twice as many people that we can't understand.  

HH