Israel admits resuming defence exports to China

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Posted: 3/16/2006 5:58:21 AM EDT

Israel admits resuming defence exports to China

AION BEN-DAVID
JDW Correpondent Tel Aviv

The Director General of Israel's Ministry of Defence (MoD), Jacob Toren, announced on 1 March that "Israeli companies have resumed defence exports to China".

Toren would not elaborate on the nature of the new contracts, which have been at the heart of a long crisis between Israel and the US.
Toren took office in September 2005 after his predecessor Amos Yaron was forced to resign under pressure from the US Department of Defense (DoD), which accused Yaron of misleading it on the nature of Israeli defence exports to China.

During the crisis, which culminated in the DoD severing all ties with the Israeli MoD. Israel claimed that defence sales to China had considerably reduced in significance after 2000. when Israel was forced to cancel a USD1 .2 billion sale of Israel Aircraft Industries' (IAI's) Phalcon airborne early-warning systems to China.

While DoD officials had insisted that Israel continues to supply the Chinese armed forces, the Israeli MoD stated that defence sales to China have totalled only USD30 million in 2000-2005.

The rift between the two allies emerged in June 2004 when the US learned that IA! intended to provide spare parts for Harpy anti-radar unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs) sold to China in 1999. As a result. Israel was forced to confiscate the UCAVs and practically terminate all defence contracts with China.

The crisis was resolved in August 2005 when Israel signed a statement of understanding with the US, pledging to restructure its agencies regulating defence exports and to consult the US on any sale that might compromise US interests.

It is unclear whether Torens remarks were meant to demonstrate Israeli independence or reflect a genuine resumption of defence ties with China. However, he did say: "Companies will come and see us at the MoD" and we will judge on a case by case basis with or without consultation with the US. We are two independent countries which respect each other's relative interests.

"Defence exports were never an unsupervised business and we require all industries who want to sell to submit the plans, which we then review and approve according to the set criteria," he said.

"I did not investigate what happened in the past, as it is not relevant," said Toren. "The important thing is that we have renewed the dialogue with the US and most things are back to the way they used to be. We are strategic partners with the Americans and, as the Americans are looking after their own interests, we also have a say when the US is selling weapons to neighbouring countries." added Toren.

The Israeli MoD recently notified the DoD on the establishment of a new division within the ministry, that will monitor and regulate defence exports.

www.janes.com

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:07:00 AM EDT

[#1]

Chinese will share/sell/trade with Russians and that shit will be in Syria inside of four months.

Relinquishing control of technology is unbelievably stupid.

I wish someone with power would realize that.

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:08:15 AM EDT

[#2]

Israel is such a great ally.

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:10:22 AM EDT

[#3]

cut 'em off

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:15:51 AM EDT

[#4]

I realize it's a pipe dream, but I wish we could develope energy independence. That way we could tell all of the two-faced nations over there, it's been real, it's been fun, but it ain't been real fun.

So, we're leaving. We're going home and we will expend no more of our own precious resources (money and lives) in your area of the world. Kill each other off if you wish, but bother us no more.

Bring your troubles to our shores and we'll kill the lot of you.

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:20:39 AM EDT

[#5]

Just let Israel know that if they sell any U.S. technology to China than we:
1. Will cut off all arms sales to Israel.
2. No longer feel the need to restrictd arms sales to Arab nations hostile to Israel, including countermeasures to any technology we know that Israel currently fields. Additionally we no longer feel we need to discuss those sales with Israel in advance.

Then it would up to congress to demonstrate the testicular fortitude to stand up to the Israel lobby.

My .02

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:24:56 AM EDT

[#6]

What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:28:11 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Yep. I think Clinton, Loral, and Hughes advanced China technologically about 20-25 years ahead of where they were. Other businesses have moved them the rest of the way to current day.

Posted: 3/16/2006 6:40:44 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

That maybe true, but Clinton was always a snake and we knew it. But for Israel to say they are an ally to us and that live off of our aid and then behind our backs sell the technology to China is unforgiveable.

Also, doesn't Israel know whatever they sell to China, China will develop a countermeasure for and sell to the Russians, where it will show up in Syria / Iran? You know the same folks who feel Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth?

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:12:40 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

That maybe true, but Clinton was always a snake and we knew it. But for Israel to say they are an ally to us and that live off of our aid and then behind our backs sell the technology to China is unforgiveable.

Also, doesn't Israel know whatever they sell to China, China will develop a countermeasure for and sell to the Russians, where it will show up in Syria / Iran? You know the same folks who feel Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth?

Actually the same argument could be made for the technology that Loral, under Clinton's tutelage, sold to China.
Clinton endangered Taiwan, S Korea and Japan and Isreal with his wheeling and dealing.
If America can do it, why can't Israel?

Look at this Dubai deal, UAE officially boycotts and calls for the destruction of Israel, yet Bush wanted to do business with them and sell port operations to them.

I guess my point is, what difference does it make what any country does anymore? Nations don't have "friends" they have mutual interests.

I'ts hard for me to condemn Israel when I see how my own country treats some of it's allies.

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:17:23 AM EDT

[#10]

This article doesn't say jack about what's being exported. Even the US/Brits and everyone else are exporting military equipment to China.

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:20:27 AM EDT

[#11]

When is the U.S. goverment going to figure out that Israel is not friend of the U.S. unless it suits their interests? They create 90% of their own problems and billions of U.S. tax payers money bails them out.

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:28:10 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
When is the U.S. goverment going to figure out that Israel is not friend of the U.S. unless it suits their interests? They create 90% of their own problems and billions of U.S. tax payers money bails them out.

Yup darn that Israel for causing problems by being surrounded by 200 million enemies.

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:35:29 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
This article doesn't say jack about what's being exported. Even the US/Brits and everyone else are exporting military equipment to China.

Don't know about the USA, but Britain does not export military equipment to China.

The issue is that they were barred from the F-35 deal over this sort of stuff… They agreed to stop, now they are selling again.

If anyone thinks that the stuff that Israel sells to China is 'lightweight' look up just what a Harpy drone can do… to say a ship…

ANdy

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:48:57 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

Not to mention how many weapon systems we've sold to Israel's enemies

The Jordanian AF flies American made F-16's and AH-1 Cobra's,

The Iranians mantain F-4, F-14's and F-16's,

The Saudi Air Force inventory includes F-15's and E-3A AWAC's.

We certainly aren't coming out smelling like roses in the transfer of technlogy department...

Posted: 3/16/2006 7:55:57 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

Not to mention how many weapon systems we've sold to Israel's enemies

The Jordanian AF flies American made F-16's and AH-1 Cobra's,

The Iranians mantain F-4, F-14's and F-16's,

The Saudi Air Force inventory includes F-15's and E-3A AWAC's.

We certainly aren't coming out smelling like roses in the transfer of technlogy department...

Bogus analogy…

The equipment the US has supplied Isreal has always been the cats meow, not cut down/reduced capability export models which everyone else gets. Ditto Isreal's indigenous Defence capability, they design and build some stellar stuff… Rafael Python AAM, Litening targetting pods, ELRISA ESM gear and much, much more… all have found their way to China.

ANdy

Posted: 3/16/2006 8:01:23 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

Not to mention how many weapon systems we've sold to Israel's enemies

The Jordanian AF flies American made F-16's and AH-1 Cobra's,

The Iranians mantain F-4, F-14's and F-16's,

The Saudi Air Force inventory includes F-15's and E-3A AWAC's.

We certainly aren't coming out smelling like roses in the transfer of technlogy department...

Bogus analogy…

ANdy

Tell that to the first Israeli who get killed by that hardware....

Posted: 3/16/2006 8:07:53 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
cut 'em off

I agree. If they want to fuck around, let it be known that they are on their own. Inform other countries that isreal wants to be completely on it's own, that we no longer back them. We'll see how long they last, considering that every other country in the world wants isreal to cease to exist. The only reason they are around today is because of our support. Without us they would have been wiped out in the late 40's! Fucking ungrateful, son-of-a-bitches!

Posted: 3/16/2006 8:13:19 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

Not to mention how many weapon systems we've sold to Israel's enemies

The Jordanian AF flies American made F-16's and AH-1 Cobra's,

The Iranians mantain F-4, F-14's and F-16's,

The Saudi Air Force inventory includes F-15's and E-3A AWAC's.

We certainly aren't coming out smelling like roses in the transfer of technlogy department...

Bogus analogy…

ANdy

Tell that to the first Israeli who get killed by that hardware....

It's a bogus analogy…

There was no technology transfer on the equipment you list, all of which is reduced capability. The US DOES NOT sell anything to Israels neighbours that the IDF does not overmatch in capability by a huge margin. That is official US policy. The Saudi F-15's are 'export clunker models' not the full capability versions the IDF gets.

Ditto, the US can ground all the 'Monkey Models' it sells to the Arabs by cutting off the spares and removing the contract maintenence personnel.

ANdy

Posted: 3/16/2006 9:03:11 AM EDT

[#19]

Business is business...

Posted: 3/16/2006 9:48:41 AM EDT

[#20]

I'm not defending Israel because I served in the IDF, but c'mon guys; at one time or another, everybody is in bed with everybody else. The US practically armed and funded the Taliban and Al Queda for years during the Iran/Iraq war. The US also exported arms to the Chinese. Hell, the Chinese own most of our national debt... and we sold it to them! They could turn this country's economy off tomorrow! We do more trade and technology sales with China TODAY than almost any other nation. The only way for us to stop fighting our own creations is to totally cut ourselves off from the rest of the world which cannot happen in today's global economy. Don't get me wrong, I have no love for arabs or muslims, but the west did create its own worst enemies...

Posted: 3/16/2006 9:54:08 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
The US practically armed and funded the Taliban and Al Queda for years during the Iran/Iraq war.

This is about as incorrect as it can be.

It helps to actually know history before you use it to justify your position.

Posted: 3/16/2006 9:56:38 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
This article doesn't say jack about what's being exported. Even the US/Brits and everyone else are exporting military equipment to China.

Don't know about the USA, but Britain does not export military equipment to China.

The issue is that they were barred from the F-35 deal over this sort of stuff… They agreed to stop, now they are selling again.

If anyone thinks that the stuff that Israel sells to China is 'lightweight' look up just what a Harpy drone can do… to say a ship…

ANdy

Bullshit, you damn brit!

news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=323812005

UK trebles military exports to China
BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR ([email protected])
THE value of UK arms exports to China has more than trebled to more than £100m in the past three years alone, it emerged last night.

Officials in Washington last night confirmed that they would raise concerns about the ongoing trade with China during high-level negotiations designed to prevent the removal of the 16-year EU embargo over the coming weeks.

Although the government’s interpretation of an EU-wide embargo prevents the sale to China of "lethal weapons", military vehicles and aircraft, and "any equipment which is likely to be used for internal repression", it allows for the export of a range of components and technologies.

Since 1997, ministers have rubber-stamped hundreds of applications for licences, enabling British firms to export to China military equipment, including components for electronic warfare weaponry, lasers, radars, military helicopters, nuclear reactors and unmanned air vehicles.

They have also been granted permission to sell technology to help China produce its own military equipment, such as combat aircraft. Latest government figures on the trade confirm that UK military exports to China increased from £32m in 2001 to £76m in 2003, and then to more than £80m in the first three months of last year - including £44m between July and September, the latest period for which figures are available.

British ministers accept that colleagues across the EU have an even less restrictive interpretation of the embargo, leading to a similar rate of growth in arms sales to China across the continent - up to some £360m in 2003.

Details of the growing trade come amid the escalating row between the EU and the United States, which fears that the lifting of the embargo will allow China to develop as a superpower, and risk provoking an attempt to retake Taiwan.

In the face of concerns from the White House and a cross-party committee of senior MPs, British ministers last week maintained the EU line that "the result of any decision should not be an increase of arms exports from EU member states to China, either in quantitative or in qualitative terms".

But American politicians and anti-arms campaigners insist that the "leakage" of weapons exports behind the umbrella ban underlined fears that a relaxation of the existing controls could only provoke an acceleration of the trade in military weapons to China.

Republican Congressman Tom Lantos, senior Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, has complained bitterly about the existing sales, and promised "strong and outraged retaliatory action" from the US if the embargo was removed.

Lantos said Congress was united against "this degree of arrogant, in-your-face sales to a communist dictatorship of advanced military equipment".

He added: "People who advocate it in Europe should go down to the American military cemeteries and remind themselves of the lives we sacrificed to liberate Europe."

Tony Blair’s own MPs last week reinforced warnings that his support for EU moves to lift the embargo would threaten his crucial special relationship with the Americans. The Labour-dominated Quadripartite Committee said that EU arms selling to China "places European security policy in direct conflict with that of the United States", and could "necessitate limitations and constraints" on its relations with Europe.

A hard-hitting report from the committee also complained that China’s human-rights record had not improved since the brutal repression of pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

British industry stands to lose most from retaliatory strikes by the Americans, due to its leading role in winning US military contracts, and preferential participation in technology-sharing deals with US firms, through the close links between the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence.

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:01:58 AM EDT

[#23]

"Defence" is what you do when you use a bulldozer on barbed wire and posts. Defense is how it is spelled over here....

Just my first spelling Nazi reply with comedy. Lighten up, Francis

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:12:58 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

Not to mention how many weapon systems we've sold to Israel's enemies

The Jordanian AF flies American made F-16's and AH-1 Cobra's,

The Iranians mantain F-4, F-14's and F-16's,

The Saudi Air Force inventory includes F-15's and E-3A AWAC's.

We certainly aren't coming out smelling like roses in the transfer of technlogy department...

Bogus analogy…

ANdy

Tell that to the first Israeli who get killed by that hardware....

It's a bogus analogy…

There was no technology transfer on the equipment you list, all of which is reduced capability. The US DOES NOT sell anything to Israels neighbours that the IDF does not overmatch in capability by a huge margin. That is official US policy. The Saudi F-15's are 'export clunker models' not the full capability versions the IDF gets.

Ditto, the US can ground all the 'Monkey Models' it sells to the Arabs by cutting off the spares and removing the contract maintenence personnel.

ANdy

A weapons platform is a technology transfer, regardless if it's missing some of it's bells and whistles.

So what if the US can ground the "Monkey Models", they're still combat effective until that day.

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:13:29 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

Not to mention how many weapon systems we've sold to Israel's enemies

The Jordanian AF flies American made F-16's and AH-1 Cobra's,

The Iranians mantain F-4, F-14's and F-16's,

The Saudi Air Force inventory includes F-15's and E-3A AWAC's.

We certainly aren't coming out smelling like roses in the transfer of technlogy department...

Bogus analogy…

ANdy

Tell that to the first Israeli who get killed by that hardware....

It's a bogus analogy…

There was no technology transfer on the equipment you list, all of which is reduced capability. The US DOES NOT sell anything to Israels neighbours that the IDF does not overmatch in capability by a huge margin. That is official US policy. The Saudi F-15's are 'export clunker models' not the full capability versions the IDF gets.

Ditto, the US can ground all the 'Monkey Models' it sells to the Arabs by cutting off the spares and removing the contract maintenence personnel.

ANdy

You're saying all the aircraft we've sold the Arab Muslims in total doesn't outnumber what Israel has? The question is pertinent, because all of the Arab states want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:15:14 AM EDT

[#26]

what are they planning on exporting?
That they are is fairly inconsequential. What they are is what matters.
The F-16s the US sells to Israel are fairly stripped. The israelis put in mostly their own avianics. Not sure about the F-15I, but I assume its the same deal with them. The Phalcom deal was rightly killed.
What is the greater threat? Chinese nuke tipped ICBMs curtesy of the United States or Israel AA missiles?

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:16:24 AM EDT

[#27]

It just never ceases to amaze me how Israel will constantly bite the hand that feeds it. If we broke all ties with them they would be over run with about a 100 million arabs in a week.

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:25:57 AM EDT

[#28]

Just another case of selling them the rope they will try to use to hang us with.

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:49:57 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This article doesn't say jack about what's being exported. Even the US/Brits and everyone else are exporting military equipment to China.

Don't know about the USA, but Britain does not export military equipment to China.

The issue is that they were barred from the F-35 deal over this sort of stuff… They agreed to stop, now they are selling again.

If anyone thinks that the stuff that Israel sells to China is 'lightweight' look up just what a Harpy drone can do… to say a ship…

ANdy

Bullshit, you damn brit!

news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=323812005

UK trebles military exports to China
BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR ([email protected])
THE value of UK arms exports to China has more than trebled to more than £100m in the past three years alone, it emerged last night.

Officials in Washington last night confirmed that they would raise concerns about the ongoing trade with China during high-level negotiations designed to prevent the removal of the 16-year EU embargo over the coming weeks.

Although the government’s interpretation of an EU-wide embargo prevents the sale to China of "lethal weapons", military vehicles and aircraft, and "any equipment which is likely to be used for internal repression", it allows for the export of a range of components and technologies.

Since 1997, ministers have rubber-stamped hundreds of applications for licences, enabling British firms to export to China military equipment, including components for electronic warfare weaponry, lasers, radars, military helicopters, nuclear reactors and unmanned air vehicles.

They have also been granted permission to sell technology to help China produce its own military equipment, such as combat aircraft. Latest government figures on the trade confirm that UK military exports to China increased from £32m in 2001 to £76m in 2003, and then to more than £80m in the first three months of last year - including £44m between July and September, the latest period for which figures are available.

British ministers accept that colleagues across the EU have an even less restrictive interpretation of the embargo, leading to a similar rate of growth in arms sales to China across the continent - up to some £360m in 2003.

Details of the growing trade come amid the escalating row between the EU and the United States, which fears that the lifting of the embargo will allow China to develop as a superpower, and risk provoking an attempt to retake Taiwan.

In the face of concerns from the White House and a cross-party committee of senior MPs, British ministers last week maintained the EU line that "the result of any decision should not be an increase of arms exports from EU member states to China, either in quantitative or in qualitative terms".

But American politicians and anti-arms campaigners insist that the "leakage" of weapons exports behind the umbrella ban underlined fears that a relaxation of the existing controls could only provoke an acceleration of the trade in military weapons to China.

Republican Congressman Tom Lantos, senior Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, has complained bitterly about the existing sales, and promised "strong and outraged retaliatory action" from the US if the embargo was removed.

Lantos said Congress was united against "this degree of arrogant, in-your-face sales to a communist dictatorship of advanced military equipment".

He added: "People who advocate it in Europe should go down to the American military cemeteries and remind themselves of the lives we sacrificed to liberate Europe."

Tony Blair’s own MPs last week reinforced warnings that his support for EU moves to lift the embargo would threaten his crucial special relationship with the Americans. The Labour-dominated Quadripartite Committee said that EU arms selling to China "places European security policy in direct conflict with that of the United States", and could "necessitate limitations and constraints" on its relations with Europe.

A hard-hitting report from the committee also complained that China’s human-rights record had not improved since the brutal repression of pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

British industry stands to lose most from retaliatory strikes by the Americans, due to its leading role in winning US military contracts, and preferential participation in technology-sharing deals with US firms, through the close links between the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence.

According to Vito, if it's really not a "technology transfer", then it can't really be classified as military equipment.

Posted: 3/16/2006 10:51:50 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This article doesn't say jack about what's being exported. Even the US/Brits and everyone else are exporting military equipment to China.

Don't know about the USA, but Britain does not export military equipment to China.

The issue is that they were barred from the F-35 deal over this sort of stuff… They agreed to stop, now they are selling again.

If anyone thinks that the stuff that Israel sells to China is 'lightweight' look up just what a Harpy drone can do… to say a ship…

ANdy

Bullshit, you damn brit!

news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=323812005

UK trebles military exports to China
BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR ([email protected])
THE value of UK arms exports to China has more than trebled to more than £100m in the past three years alone, it emerged last night.

Officials in Washington last night confirmed that they would raise concerns about the ongoing trade with China during high-level negotiations designed to prevent the removal of the 16-year EU embargo over the coming weeks.

Although the government’s interpretation of an EU-wide embargo prevents the sale to China of "lethal weapons", military vehicles and aircraft, and "any equipment which is likely to be used for internal repression", it allows for the export of a range of components and technologies.

Since 1997, ministers have rubber-stamped hundreds of applications for licences, enabling British firms to export to China military equipment, including components for electronic warfare weaponry, lasers, radars, military helicopters, nuclear reactors and unmanned air vehicles.

They have also been granted permission to sell technology to help China produce its own military equipment, such as combat aircraft. Latest government figures on the trade confirm that UK military exports to China increased from £32m in 2001 to £76m in 2003, and then to more than £80m in the first three months of last year - including £44m between July and September, the latest period for which figures are available.

British ministers accept that colleagues across the EU have an even less restrictive interpretation of the embargo, leading to a similar rate of growth in arms sales to China across the continent - up to some £360m in 2003.

Details of the growing trade come amid the escalating row between the EU and the United States, which fears that the lifting of the embargo will allow China to develop as a superpower, and risk provoking an attempt to retake Taiwan.

In the face of concerns from the White House and a cross-party committee of senior MPs, British ministers last week maintained the EU line that "the result of any decision should not be an increase of arms exports from EU member states to China, either in quantitative or in qualitative terms".

But American politicians and anti-arms campaigners insist that the "leakage" of weapons exports behind the umbrella ban underlined fears that a relaxation of the existing controls could only provoke an acceleration of the trade in military weapons to China.

Republican Congressman Tom Lantos, senior Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, has complained bitterly about the existing sales, and promised "strong and outraged retaliatory action" from the US if the embargo was removed.

Lantos said Congress was united against "this degree of arrogant, in-your-face sales to a communist dictatorship of advanced military equipment".

He added: "People who advocate it in Europe should go down to the American military cemeteries and remind themselves of the lives we sacrificed to liberate Europe."

Tony Blair’s own MPs last week reinforced warnings that his support for EU moves to lift the embargo would threaten his crucial special relationship with the Americans. The Labour-dominated Quadripartite Committee said that EU arms selling to China "places European security policy in direct conflict with that of the United States", and could "necessitate limitations and constraints" on its relations with Europe.

A hard-hitting report from the committee also complained that China’s human-rights record had not improved since the brutal repression of pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

British industry stands to lose most from retaliatory strikes by the Americans, due to its leading role in winning US military contracts, and preferential participation in technology-sharing deals with US firms, through the close links between the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence.

According to Vito, if it's really not a "technology transfer", then it can't really be classified as military equipment.

"Vito" has a well documented aversion to Israel, so any way he can spin his agenda he's going to.

Posted: 3/16/2006 11:02:15 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

"Vito" has a well documented aversion to Israel, so any way he can spin his agenda he's going to.

Bring up anything negative about Israel and the anti-semites come running!

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:01:56 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:

"Vito" has a well documented aversion to Israel, so any way he can spin his agenda he's going to.

Bring up anything negative about Israel and the anti-semites come running!

And the people that scream "Anti Semite!" at anyone that says anything negative about Isreal will come running too, whether the comment is anti semite or not.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:08:54 PM EDT

[#33]

IBTL.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:10:27 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
It just never ceases to amaze me how Israel will constantly bite the hand that feeds it. If we broke all ties with them they would be over run with about a 100 million arabs in a week.

Incorrect.

100 million Arabs would attempt to overrun Israel. Without our support it would just turn into a brief nuclear war.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:23:23 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
When is the U.S. goverment going to figure out that no nation on earth is the friend of the U.S. unless it suits their interests? .......................................

Reality

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:34:41 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
The US practically armed and funded the Taliban and Al Queda for years during the Iran/Iraq war.

WTF are you talking about? Get your facts straight.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:36:54 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

"Vito" has a well documented aversion to Israel, so any way he can spin his agenda he's going to.

Bring up anything negative about Israel and the anti-semites come running!

And the people that scream "Anti Semite!" at anyone that says anything negative about Isreal will come running too, whether the comment is anti semite or not.

You got that shit right !

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:38:57 PM EDT

[#38]

Thats OK. We gave China technology that they sold to Iran who upgrades their missles so that they can attack Israel.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:39:52 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The US practically armed and funded the Taliban and Al Queda for years during the Iran/Iraq war.

WTF are you talking about? Get your facts straight.

Every time I hear how the United State funded the Taliban, or Al Queda, or Iraq, I always have to ask-THEN WHY DO ALL THE AFOREMENTIONED COUNTRIES HAVE SOVIET WEAPONRY?
Why ain't Johnny Jihad running around with an M16 instead of an AK?

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:48:41 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The US practically armed and funded the Taliban and Al Queda for years during the Iran/Iraq war.

WTF are you talking about? Get your facts straight.

Every time I hear how the United State funded the Taliban, or Al Queda, or Iraq, I always have to ask-THEN WHY DO ALL THE AFOREMENTIONED COUNTRIES HAVE SOVIET WEAPONRY?
Why ain't Johnny Jihad running around with an M16 instead of an AK?

I would say no ties, but we did arm them with stingers, so little or no ties. AKs blend in quite well and there was plenty of Soviet ammo to supply them.

Oh and now back to Israel bashing, anyone who sells arms to China should be banned...

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:52:56 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The US practically armed and funded the Taliban and Al Queda for years during the Iran/Iraq war.

WTF are you talking about? Get your facts straight.

Every time I hear how the United State funded the Taliban, or Al Queda, or Iraq, I always have to ask-THEN WHY DO ALL THE AFOREMENTIONED COUNTRIES HAVE SOVIET WEAPONRY?
Why ain't Johnny Jihad running around with an M16 instead of an AK?

I would say no ties, but we did arm them with stingers, so little or no ties. AKs blend in quite well and there was plenty of Soviet ammo to supply them.

Oh and now back to Israel bashing, anyone who sells arms to China should be banned...

I'm aware we supplied the mujahadeen (sp) with stingers, but that doesn't mean we supplied or funded the Taliban, who came into power after the Soviets left.
The left always points to the stinger missles to say we funded Osama, ingnoring the fact that Osama's an Arab, the Afghans are not Arabs, and it was the Afghans we were allied with.
Osama went to Afghanistan with his own money and his own agenda.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:57:51 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I'm aware we supplied the mujahadeen (sp) with stingers, but that doesn't mean we supplied or funded the Taliban, who came into power after the Soviets left.
The left always points to the stinger missles to say we funded Osama, ingnoring the fact that Osama's an Arab, the Afghans are not Arabs, and it was the Afghans we were allied with.
Osama went to Afghanistan with his own money and his own agenda.

Holy Cow! We agree on something.

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:59:13 PM EDT

[#43]

oops double tap

Posted: 3/16/2006 12:59:47 PM EDT

[#44]

Everytime Israel sells us out:
(a) it is to our benefit,
(b) we have done it too so Israel doing it is fine, or
(c) Israel did not sell us out and you are an anti-semite, or
(d) all of the above.

Posted: 3/16/2006 1:01:05 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm aware we supplied the mujahadeen (sp) with stingers, but that doesn't mean we supplied or funded the Taliban, who came into power after the Soviets left.
The left always points to the stinger missles to say we funded Osama, ingnoring the fact that Osama's an Arab, the Afghans are not Arabs, and it was the Afghans we were allied with.
Osama went to Afghanistan with his own money and his own agenda.

Holy Cow! We agree on something.

We probably agree on a hell of a lot more than we disagree on

That's my fault, as I usually chime in on threads when I take exception to a point. I'm not one to +1 a thread, if I agree I just go on about my business, which is why I seem like such a contrarian.

Posted: 3/16/2006 1:03:00 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Everytime Israel sells us out:
(a) it is to our benefit,
(b) we have done it too so Israel doing it is fine, or
(c) Israel did not sell us out and you are an anti-semite, or
(d) all of the above.

It's hard for me to agree that Israel sold us out, when as a nation we've sold ourselves out to China, especially during the bad old days of the Clinton Presidency.

If as a nation we don't care, why should Israel?

Posted: 3/16/2006 1:06:28 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What makes Israel any worse than us? Look what we handed to China during the Clinton administration.

Nothin's for real.

That maybe true, but Clinton was always a snake and we knew it. But for Israel to say they are an ally to us and that live off of our aid and then behind our backs sell the technology to China is unforgiveable.

Also, doesn't Israel know whatever they sell to China, China will develop a countermeasure for and sell to the Russians, where it will show up in Syria / Iran? You know the same folks who feel Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth?

Then you are pretty naive.
"A nation has no allies, only interests."

Posted: 3/16/2006 1:12:05 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Everytime Israel sells us out:
(a) it is to our benefit,
(b) we have done it too so Israel doing it is fine, or
(c) Israel did not sell us out and you are an anti-semite, or
(d) all of the above.

Thats damn good.

Posted: 3/16/2006 1:13:35 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

I'm aware we supplied the mujahadeen (sp) with stingers, but that doesn't mean we supplied or funded the Taliban, who came into power after the Soviets left.
The left always points to the stinger missles to say we funded Osama, ingnoring the fact that Osama's an Arab, the Afghans are not Arabs, and it was the Afghans we were allied with.
Osama went to Afghanistan with his own money and his own agenda.

For probably about the 10th time since 9-11:

BLUF: US money did go to the groups that eventually became the Taliban and Al Qaeda. This happened because Pakistan, angry at suspension of US aid due to human rights abuses (Carter suspended), insisted on controlling the transfer of money/supplies through Pakistan into Afghanistan.

Background:

When the Soviets invaded Aghanistan, the US funded the Afghan resistance.

To get money and supplies to the resistance we had to go through Pakistan (other borders being Iran and USSR)

US wanted to fund more secular groups

Pakistan was pissed at US because Carter put trade/aid restrictions on Pakistan because of their poor human rights record

Pakistan's condition to allow supplies through its turf was that it got to be the middleman and choose who got the goods

Pakistan's ISI gave most of the money to Pashtun religous extremists with who the ISI had good ties.

These extremists became the Taliban

Lots of religous zealot Arabs went to join the Jihad in Afghanistan and allied themselves with the Afghan religous extremists so those Arabs probably did receive US money.

Some of the Arab zealots formed Al Qaeda

During the war the US managed to get some aid to groups with less religous affiliation as well, but in smaller amounts.

Posted: 3/16/2006 1:16:37 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Everytime Israel sells us out:
(a) it is to our benefit,
(b) we have done it too so Israel doing it is fine, or
(c) Israel did not sell us out and you are an anti-semite, or
(d) all of the above.

It's hard for me to agree that Israel sold us out, when as a nation we've sold ourselves out to China, especially during the bad old days of the Clinton Presidency.

If as a nation we don't care, why should Israel?

So if we have a few traitors, we can no longer stop our alleged allies from selling our secrets as well? Does that makes sense to anybody else? Because we have a few traitors, it is OK for all of us to be traitors?

If you think ryann's 'logic' makes sense you are a traitor, and will use any excuse to sell out your own nation in favor of Israel.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Israel admits resuming defence exports to China (Page 1 of 2)

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