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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:27:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Is he a felon? |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:29:43 PM EDT
[#2]
you can order the gun for him, but he must fill out the 4473 or it could be construed as a straw purchase.... |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:31:52 PM EDT
[#3]
There is an exception for immediate family, although I'm not sure if it's only parent/child, or if sibling-to-sibling is permissible as well. |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:35:36 PM EDT
[#4]
He is not a felon, well as far as I know of. It was my intention to have him fill out the 4473 while we were at the store. The gun will legally be his, transferred to him, kept at his house, etc. I just want to purchase it for him, so I think that will rule out the possibility of it being made out to be a straw man purchase. If you see anything wrong with this plan or any flaw let me know.
James |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:39:41 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm talking out of my ass once again, what else is new, but maybe you can just give him the money at the store and he can just buy it and that's all she wrote. Simpler is better IMO. No futzing around with paperwork and transfers and all that stuff. He gets his gun in however many days Texas requires and that's the end of it. It's legal to give somebody money last time I checked. |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:40:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Sounds like that would be ok to me. You ight consider a gift certificate to the gun shop as well. Dunno if they do that. |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:42:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Well then it's fine. Contrary to what many people say, straw purchasing has nothing to do with money. You can go into any gun store in America and give anyone any amount of money to buy any gun they want, as long as they fill out the forms. It doesn't matter. What DOES matter is who takes posession of the firearm, and whether or not this posessor is the guy who filled out the paperwork. If this wasn't true, the NRA would be violating federal law by doing their "Vault-o-Guns Giveaway" raffle every year. As long as your bro is filling out the 4473, etc., and as long as he is the person who will actually be owning the gun in real life, no straw purchasing is taking place. Happy birthday to him, BTW. 
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Posted: 3/7/2006 11:47:37 PM EDT
[#8]
I would not be opposed to doing that but the gun he has been talking about is an H&k USP, and I can order it online for about 200 dollars less than the cheapest one I can find locally. James |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 12:00:36 AM EDT
[#9]
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! This myth is floated over and over and over again. It's completely false....the brother would not have to fill out a 4473, unless HE is the buyer....the one actually paying for the gun. A straw purchase is clearly defined, and is a person using an intermediary to purchase a gun because he is unable to do so otherwise, or unable to pass a background check. If you purchase a firearm (meaning YOU are the buyer) and give it as a gift to someone who is not a felon, that is 100% legal. Now, in this case the buyer should be sure his brother is not a felon or unable to possess a firearm before giving him the gun, but he is not conducting a straw purchase unless he knowingly DID purchase a gun for a felon. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 12:08:57 AM EDT
[#10]
I hate to disagree with you, but they way I understand it is that you are technically talking about two seperate violations here. A "straw purchase" is illegal because someone knowingly lies on a 4473, regardless of whether the person he is "strawing" it to is a felon or not. Actually transferring the firearm to a felon would be a seperate charge altogether. So, if you fill out the form for your brother and give it to him, you could be guilty of a straw purchase (again, depending on the exact wording of the "immediate family" clause) even if he is legally fine. If your brother IS a felon, though, then you'd be guilty of a straw purchase AND guilty of transferring a handgun to a felon. That's the way I understand it. I'm not trying to undermine Swingset of course, and I'd actually be rather happy if someone proved me wrong (the less stringent gun laws are, the better). |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 4:44:02 AM EDT
[#11]
Ok, let me clarify. If you are the ACTUAL PURCHASER of a firearm, but have someone else do the paperwork for you, then yes that's a straw purchase. You are, in that scenario, getting someone else to do the 4473 for you. If you are giving the gun as a gift, and pay for that gun yourself, then YOU ARE THE BUYER, and after buying that weapon may transfer it to anyone your heart desires, unless you knowingly give it to a felon. That is NOT straw purchase, it is perfectly 100% legal. As the question was asked by the original poster, he is proposing both buying and filling out the 4473 on a new gun, and giving that gun as a gift. Providing the recipient is not legally prohibited from owning a weapon, then the gift is legal. Call the ATF, they'll tell you the same thing. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 4:49:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Would one of you keyboard lawyers care to post this "immediate family clause"?
Sounds like a big steaming pile of BullShit to me! |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 5:01:30 AM EDT
[#13]
You can buy a gun as a gift for someone else as long as you don't know of any reason they can't own a gun. I bought my cousin a gun as a wedding gift when he was my best man. I went to the store and bought the gun. I paid for it, and I filled out the forms. I then took the gun and gave it to him. Perfectly legal and not a straw purchase.
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Posted: 3/8/2006 5:03:58 AM EDT
[#14]
Yep, this has been discussed here before and Swingset is right. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 5:07:08 AM EDT
[#15]
perfectly legal. in fact that is exactly what sara brady did when she bought her son a rifleg |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 5:39:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Yeah but its perfectly legal for anyone! This is what I'm questioning.
If I buy a gun to give it to you as a congratulation gift for becoming the govenor, Then I just do it. there is no question of whether we are brothers or parent/child. What I'm saying is the "immediate family clause" is BS until someone shows it to me! |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 5:48:28 AM EDT
[#17]
It is perfectly legal to purchase a firearm, then give the firearm as a gift.
That's what I do. If you are actually paying for the firearm, YOU are the buyer. Just buy the gun yourself and give it as a gift. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:00:03 AM EDT
[#18]
There is no "immediate family clause" exception at the federal level for transferring a firearm. You can purchase a firearm as a gift for anyone. The person giving the firearm must pay for it with his/her own money as the actual purchaser of the firearm. The transfer of the firearm to the recipient of the gift is a private transfer and is governed by state law. Some states like PA do have a restriction for a private transfers of a handgun to certain family members. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:02:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Ok, here's a similar question:
If you have posession of a family member's gun, or you just bought a gun as a gift for a family member, and they live in another state, can you ship the gun directly to them without going through an FFL? |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:03:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Get him a gift certificate to the store or give him a cash gift for his birthday. Let him pay for and transfer the gun himself. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:04:19 AM EDT
[#21]
This is my understanding as well. Basically if your brother's answer to any of the questions on the 4473 would prohibit him from buying it himself, you probably should not do it. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:12:02 AM EDT
[#22]
If my bro had 20+ tickets and an arrest, I would take this route. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:12:46 AM EDT
[#23]
Unless you are both residents of the same state the gift must be transferred in his/her state of residence by an FFL. You cannot legally ship the family member's gun back to them. The family member must personally ship it back to themself. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:23:41 AM EDT
[#24]
I have given six or seven guns as gifts. Nothing wrong with it; done it frequently. That being said, it is illegal for a convicted felon to be in possession of a firearm. If your brother is not a convicted felon, buy him the gun. If he is a convicted felon, then don't buy him the gun. That is all there is to it. Going in, paying for the gun, but having him fill out the form is going to make the dealer think that your brother is doing a straw purchase for you. The dealer can always refuse service to anyone, so why make this more complicated than necessary?
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:26:50 AM EDT
[#25]
If you are buying the gun for someone as a gift, how do you answer the question 12a?
So is the core of the argument that you aren't acquiring on behalf of someone else since it's a gift, and is not being done at their request? |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:27:38 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:30:29 AM EDT
[#27]
It is 100% legal for a person to buy a gun with their own money that they intend to give as a gift to another person.
What the initial poster suggested doing (going to the gun shop with his brother, having the brother fill out the 4473 and then paying for the gun himself) could be construed as a strawman purchase. Traffic tickets are not enough to disbar your brother from owning a gun, unless he hasn't paid them and there are warrants out for his arrest. You can't have a NICS check done on your brother without his knowledge, so unless you KNOW for a fact that he is disqualified then you are safe in assuming that he is not. Buy your brother the gun without fear and enjoy shooting with him! |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:32:54 AM EDT
[#28]
If you are buying the gun as a gift with your own funds you are the actual buyer of the firearm and can truthfully answer yes to question 12a. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:39:07 AM EDT
[#29]
This seems like kind of an oddball argument, perhaps people who are more informed can confirm or deny. I would think that it's better to buy it yourself and give it to him, because that way, he doesn't get the background check. If you can answer honestly now that you have no knowledge that your brother is a convicted felon or otherwise prohibited, then you are fine to buy guns and give them to him as gifts and let him shoot yours at the range. But if he goes in for the background check and is denied, you now have knowledge that he is prohibited from touching a firearm, and you could theoretically be prosecuted for letting him touch a firearm or ammunition at any time.
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:41:49 AM EDT
[#30]
It is illegal to transfer a firearm to a prohibited person. The following is the federal definition of a prohibited person. You must also be in complience with the laws of the state where the private transfer is taking place. Legal > Prohibited Persons The GCA makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. 18 U.S.C. 922(g). Transfers of firearms to any such prohibited persons are also unlawful. 18 U.S.C. 922(d). These categories include any person -- * Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; * convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; * who is a fugitive from justice; * who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance; * who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution; * who is an illegal alien; * who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions; * who has renounced his or her United States citizenship; * who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or * who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (enacted by the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, effective September 30, 1996). 18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n). |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:42:52 AM EDT
[#31]
As far as I know, the only way you can transfer a pistol across state lines is to either die, and will the gun to someone, or move. Otherwise, my grandfather would be buying me all those guns that Mass won't let me get through a dealer. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 6:50:24 AM EDT
[#32]
In MO, if you buy a handgun and intend to transfer to another person within the state they have to get the appropriate permits to obtain the handgun.
If it is a rifle then said person must be able to own a firearm. SO, you might check with your state laws on a transfer of a firearm. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 7:29:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Just keep in mind if you buy a gun on a 4473 and give/sell it to someone the potential exists for it to be traced back to you if it is misused.
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:08:06 AM EDT
[#34]
Thanks for all of the replies. I think that I will just buy the gun and give it to him, so that I can avoid as many headaches as possible. Any other information you have on the subject would be greatly appreciated.
James |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:18:02 AM EDT
[#35]
Is there a national standard for what this means? I know that in Texas (for the purposes of getting a CHL), you are defined as an unlawful user or addict if you have two or more arrests related to the substance in a 10 year period. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:22:00 AM EDT
[#36]
At which time you tell them that you sold it and you're off the hook. I'd buy it as a gift, and then before giving it to him, I'd ask him if he was a felon. If he's not, I'm sure he'll love your thoughtful gift. Oh and btw, while you might not think used is a good idea, good used USPs are available often online, for really reasonable prices. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:22:38 AM EDT
[#37]
Huh? That must just be a state law in MA or something. Certainly you can transfer a handgun to a family member through an FFL if the state laws allow it. AFAIK there isn't any federal law banning the transfer of handguns through an FFL 
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:30:07 AM EDT
[#38]
State law in Mass....can't have non mass approved firearms transferred by FFL. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:37:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Some of you quoting the "immediate family member" are confusing two different things.
As Swingset has said, it is perfectly legal to purchase a firearm and give it as a gift as long as recipient of the gift is legal to posess said firearm. The "immediate family" thing is related to purchasing a firearm for a minor. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:40:13 AM EDT
[#40]
Here is the actual text of the instructions for 4473:
www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm 
A "straw purchase" is a purchase of a firearm for another party with the intent of hiding that other party's identity. It does not have to be a prohibitied purchaser to be a "straw purchase". |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:45:11 AM EDT
[#41]
Easy solution to the problem. Find out what that gun costs at the shop, with tax, fees, etc. Give your brother a gift certificate to that shop for that amount. Take him down, and he buys the gun, fills out the paperwork, etc.
If they don't do certificates (and most do, I find), give him the cash before you enter the shop. He pays for it, he fills out the paperwork. You're not involved at all. Everyone is happy, no straw purchase worries. Now if he doesn't pass the background check, he's outta luck. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 8:46:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Thanks, that's what I though. Wow, that sucks for the MA residents. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 9:06:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Yes, but in the interim you're on the hook. You might also be surprised how mutts (including family member's) try to implicate someone else when facing charges in an attempt to get themselves off the hook. As always YMMV. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 9:15:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Last time I did a gift, I purchased the gun, and I was the purchaser.
I then gifted the gun to my brother, gave him a bill of sale reciting "in consideration of love and affection on your 25th birthday..." as the basis for the exchange, and kept copies. It is not a straw purchase to gift a gun to someone after you buy a gun listing yourself as the purchaser. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 10:13:38 AM EDT
[#45]
Thats how I understand the law too. There is a lot of bad info in this thread. Caveat, unless there is something odd about Texas laws about gifting gun. |
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