I'm reading this book for school which I am forced to read or I will fail. I am half way threw the book and at the bottom of every page there is a fact about the real world apose to this wacked out anti-gun book. The name of the book is Give A Boy A Gun. I don't think this is true.

" Several years ago Winchester-Olin company started selling a new bullet called the black talon. It was called the Talon because it's tip divided into six "claws" that unfold as it penetrates flash. While traveling through the body, this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times, causing far more damage than an ordinary bullet."

Wasn't the Black Talon a armor piercing bullet that was coated in kevlar. The reason for the kevlar was so it didn't dammage the barrel because what the kevlar coated was harder then steal hence it would dammage z barrel.

I fell as though they are trying to brain wash me.

Also a bill board in Massachushits on I-95 by boston ( I read in the lewiston sun journal ) Reads New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, and georgia have bad gun laws or easy gun laws or some crap. I really hate when other states say our gun laws are bad. Funny thing is I think that state has more gun violence then all those four states put together.

I think it was coated with teflon, for reliability and feeding.

Well did it do that crap break apart and bounce arount the human body like a pin ball machine?

Edit: Does It do that crap like it says in the book and what the media said "It bounces around the inside of the human body"

can anyone translate that for me???

Quoted: Well did it do that crap break apart and bounce arount the human body like a pin ball machine?

It is a hollow point. It's designed to expand once it hits something.

I always thought that the talons were nasty hollow-points.  The guy I bought my Ruger from had them in his magazine and told me that they did not come with the gun.  They were most definately split-top hollowpoints.  I don't think they were meant for piercing armor.

"Several years ago Winchester-Olin company started selling a new bullet called the black talon. It was called the Talon because it's tip divided into six "claws" that unfold as it penetrates flash. While traveling through the body, this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times, causing far more damage than an ordinary bullet."


Could you just tell me weather this is bull shit or not?

Quoted:" Several years ago Winchester-Olin company started selling a new bullet called the black talon. It was called the Talon because it's tip divided into six "claws" that unfold as it penetrates flash. While traveling through the body, this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times, causing far more damage than an ordinary bullet."

That sounds like a description of pretty much any hollowpoint projectile except for the "claw" part.

I thought they just painted it black and named it Black Talon so it would be more distinctive. Very similar to the Starfire bullet.

Black Talon was renamed SXT and now it's called Ranger Talon, they just leave the black paint off..

Quoted: "Several years ago Winchester-Olin company started selling a new bullet called the black talon. It was called the Talon because it's tip divided into six "claws" that unfold as it penetrates flash. While traveling through the body, this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times, causing far more damage than an ordinary bullet." Could you just tell me weather this is bull shit or not?

Translation "The Black Talon is a type of hollow point bullet, and acts accordingly. It has an evil name, so we're going to pick on it, then we're going to be really graphic and embellish the way it works, so as to drive fear into the minds of those easily converted moderates."

I think the name is cool.

Black talon is still around as Ranger SXT, IIRC.
It was no more dangerous than any other expanding round design, it just looked nasty as fuck and had a bad ass name.
Liberals and gun show SEALs everywhere made up BS stories about it's performance.

Quoted: I think the name is cool.

See?
Winchester/Olin had a good marketing guy.

Based on the clarity and organization of your initial post, I'd say it's good you're forced to read just about any book.

And completely separate of the content of a book, if it goes against what you know to be true, does your own argument not gain validity by contrast?

I had to read the Communist Manifesto for school. Did I agree with it? Hell no. Am I a better educated person for it? Well, I'm no worse off than before at the least.

Quoted: Quoted: I think the name is cool. See? Winchester/Olin had a good marketing guy.

He is right! I want a box or 10. Does it come in .300 weatherby magnum?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think the name is cool. See? Winchester/Olin had a good marketing guy. He is right! I want a box or 10. Does it come in .300 weatherby magnum?

IIRC, it was only offered in pistol cartridges.
There are better rounds out there anyway.
If you really want it bad - Winchester Ranger SXT is the same round.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think the name is cool. See? Winchester/Olin had a good marketing guy. He is right! I want a box or 10. Does it come in .300 weatherby magnum? IIRC, it was only offered in pistol cartridges. There are better rounds out there anyway. If you really want it bad - Winchester Ranger SXT is the same round.

Do they sell the SXT bullets with out the caseing and stuff like that.

Black Talon

Quoted: "Several years ago Winchester-Olin company started selling a new bullet called the black talon. It was called the Talon because it's tip divided into six "claws" that unfold as it penetrates flash. While traveling through the body, this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times, causing far more damage than an ordinary bullet." Could you just tell me weather this is bull shit or not?

This is fairly accurate.

Although "far more damage" is exaggeration.

It is a damn efficient hollowpoint.

One of my friends told me if you cut a X into the hollow point like on the tip it will expand into a X or a cross. Dealing the same amount of dammage.

Quoted: Wasn't the Black Talon a armor piercing bullet that was coated in kevlar. The reason for the kevlar was so it didn't dammage the barrel because what the kevlar coated was harder then steal hence it would dammage z barrel.

The Black Talon was not coated in Kevlar.
Nor was it coated with Teflon.

It was a propriatory coating, which did little more than give it a durable black color.

It did not make it slippery.
And certainly did not make it able to penetrate bullet proof vests.

The bullet was a standard copper jacketed hollowpoint over a lead core.

There was no steel or tungsten in the bullet.

I believe the Black talon projectile became a media topic after ER docs complained of the very sharp fragments (talons).

I thought it had something to do with docs sticking their fingers in the holes and getting cut through their gloves.  

Yes I have actually overheard an ER doc explain the simple method of distingushing between an abdominal GSW and a chest GSW by using a finger in the entry wound.

A man who won't read is no better off than a man who can't.  Literature  of all kinds enlarge one's capacity to discern patterns of truth and falsehood and their subjectivity should not be condemned without first perusing the author's intent.  A follow up to your reading this piece should be others of a similar nature that explore the subject from different perspectives.  This will allow you to have a keen grasp of the topic and enable you to discuss the issue with other people who may or may not share your perspective. Framing a cogent argument backed up by relevant facts is the hallmark of a literate citizen and honest discourse among free people is the bulwark against which the enemies of democracy shudder and wither away.
I congratulate your efforts to discern the truth and welcome you to the wonderful world of literature of all genres.

Quoted: "Several years ago Winchester-Olin company started selling a new bullet called the black talon. It was called the Talon because it's tip divided into six "claws" that unfold as it penetrates flash. While traveling through the body, this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times, causing far more damage than an ordinary bullet." Could you just tell me weather this is bull shit or not?

Yes that is pretty much how it works however it is no more or less nasty that a Remington Golden Sabre or a Speer Gold Dot it just looked a little scarier.

Quoted: One of my friends told me if you cut a X into the hollow point like on the tip it will expand into a X or a cross. Dealing the same amount of dammage.

Your friend has been reading too many Mack Bolan novelettes.
Doing that will not ensure reliable expansion, and may degrade accuracy as well.

Why don't you find a way to raise hell for assigning a politically biased book to impressionable youngsters?

Quoted: Why don't you find a way to raise hell for assigning a politically biased book to impressionable youngsters?

You never win in my school. Here is a example: We have a micro wave in school in the lunch room. You can only use it for food you bought from the lunch room. We had a petition going around school got over 1000 signitures and they just threw it out.

Here is another one. Sam's a place that is kind of like a deli/subway and it sells the school italians which are subs if you don't live in new england for 13 cents the school lunch room charges 2.50$. I am the only one that finds that insane that is also the same prace that Sam's charges. The goverment is also I think doing something called price shrinking thats when they pay for a % of the lunch they pay the people who do the lunch program so they people who do the lunch program are also riping off the goverment it seems. They just say we charge 3.50 for a italian and the goverment pays a dollar and lowers it to 2.50.

Isn't there a thread around here somewhere about someone who shot himself in the hand with one of these?

Quoted: A man who won't read is no better off than a man who can't.

I think we have a little of both in this case.

If anyone wants any Black Talon, I have at least one box of every caliber it came in.  They're for sale at $40 per box.  Be the baddest badass in yo hood, get Black Talonz fo yo Deagle wit da Beamz.

Quoted: Quoted: He is right! I want a box or 10. Does it come in .300 weatherby magnum? IIRC, it was only offered in pistol cartridges.

No, they made rifle rounds under that brand as well.  I believe they were straightforward hunting bullets, not self-defense hollowpoints, however.  I have them in .223, .308, .30-06, and .300 Win Mag.  Not sure if there were any others or not, but if so, I'm pretty sure I have the whole set.

BTW, I bought them before the prices shot through the roof when Winchester pulled them, and I've made a few bucks here and there selling them as "collectable ammo" at gunshows whenever I got a table together.

Quoted: If anyone wants any Black Talon, I have at least one box of every caliber it came in.  They're for sale at $40 per box.  Be the baddest badass in yo hood, get Black Talonz fo yo Deagle wit da Beamz.

I have to spend more time reading this site.  I know what a Deagle is.

I have no f'in clue wtf Beamz are for.  Maybe Ill ask the next homie I roust.

Oh....and my Black Talons are cheaper.  Only 39.95 a box.  Not including shipping.  Got a whole armory full of em. BC

Hmmmmm, that's tempting. I'd love to have some .45acp for my carry pistol.
I may be taking one of you guys up on that soon.

Quoted: " Several years ago Winchester-Olin company started selling a new bullet called the black talon. It was called the Talon because it's tip divided into six "claws" that unfold as it penetrates flash. While traveling through the body, this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times, causing far more damage than an ordinary bullet."

This is a pic of an expanded gold dot hollowpoint.  I believe the black talon would look similar.   I would say the book's description of an explanded BT is fair, but if the rest of the literature uses that description to demonize the cartridge then I would say thats unfair. IMHO



eta:  actually, as I was reviewing the other thread i see that gold dots are 4 gen JHP and BT were 3rd. So maybe they would not look as similar as I thought.

"this increases the diamter of the bullet nearly three times"

This sounds a bit high to me.  That would mean the bullet would be almost an inch across after expansion.  

Quoted: Also a bill board in Massachushits on I-95 by boston ( I read in the lewiston sun journal ) Reads New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, and georgia have bad gun laws or easy gun laws or some crap. I really hate when other states say our gun laws are bad. Funny thing is I think that state has more gun violence then all those four states put together.

I need to buy a billboard up there: "Massachussetts: A Shithole Filled with Assholes"

Quoted: Quoted: One of my friends told me if you cut a X into the hollow point like on the tip it will expand into a X or a cross. Dealing the same amount of dammage. Your friend has been reading too many Mack Bolan novelettes. Doing that will not ensure reliable expansion, and may degrade accuracy as well.

If you're fighting vampires, however, cutting the sign of the cross into the bullet will enable you ti use your traditional firearm, loaded with non-exotic metal rounds, to kill said bloodsuckers.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One of my friends told me if you cut a X into the hollow point like on the tip it will expand into a X or a cross. Dealing the same amount of dammage. Your friend has been reading too many Mack Bolan novelettes. Doing that will not ensure reliable expansion, and may degrade accuracy as well. If you're fighting vampires, however, cutting the sign of the cross into the bullet will enable you ti use your traditional firearm, loaded with non-exotic metal rounds, to kill said bloodsuckers.

They did that in that movie. I forgot the name I think it was from dusk till dawn with george clooney with is 44 magnum.

"If you try to run I got five friends that can run faster".

Watch the movie........

In politics, if you don’t understand the other side’s arguments then you don’t really understand your side’s arguments either. So read the dang book and learn what the anti gun people think, then you will be able to logically refute them instead of falling back on bumper sticker slogans.

There was an armor piercing round called the KTW I believe which was Teflon coated so that it didn’t damage the barrel. Few people outside of law enforcement were even aware that they existed and for that matter, few people were aware that police wore body armor.

Law enforcement officers were probably the biggest users of the KTW round. The KTW didn’t expand, would over penetrate, and was not a good defensive round. But there was always the possibility an officer might have to shoot at a suspect using a car for cover or wearing body armor. So some officers carried a spare magazine loaded with the KTWs.

Virtually all rifle ammunition would easily penetrate any vest then made. The Gun control side knew this and proposed a law that would ban what they called “Cop Killer” ammunition. The bill they proposed would have banned any ammunition capable of penetrating a bullet proof vest.

This bill would have banned all rifle ammunition, and it also alerted every criminal to the fact that the police were actually wearing vests. (No telling how many police officers died as a result.) In a brilliant but nasty political maneuver, the anti gun forces argued very publicly that deer hunters didn’t need bullets that could go through police vests. If the pro-gun side explained the truth they would cost even more officers their lives. If the pro-gun side stayed quiet about this little technical detail the anti-gun side would claim the pro-gun side wanted to kill police officers…

The NRA and other pro-gun groups quietly explained the situation to Congress and agreed to a bill that banned handgun ammunition made from hard metals, effectively banning the KTW round.

The “Black Talon” was a different controversy. Defensive handgun ammunition should expand when it hits its target. This makes a larger wound channel and transfers more energy into the target delivering a bigger punch and more knockdown power. (Supposedly, terminal ballistics are still a hotly debated topic.) Expanding ammunition (usually hollowpoints) also doesn’t penetrate as deeply as non expanding ammunition. Bullets that over penetrate may go through the target and hit an innocent person.

A civilian is never justified in shooting until his life (or the life of another) is in immediate jeopardy. In that situation the civilian needs to immediately incapacitate his attacker. Even one second of delay might cost him his life. So, the civilian needs ammunition which expands and delivers all of its energy into the target. This may seem bloody minded, but remember that in that situation the civilian will fire until he stops the attacker or he is killed. And, two or three bullet holes from a non expanding round are far more deadly than one hollowpoint round. Considering the rather poor record of non expanding ammunition in instantly stopping a fight, its far better for everyone involved (attacker included) for people to carry hollowpoints in their defensive firearms.

My guess is that all the “facts” in that book are true. But it’s easy to misrepresent facts and twist them to imply things which aren’t true.

For example…

“The Corvette is a high speed racecar which is capable of traveling twice as fast as ordinary cars. This high speed allows criminals to kill nuns, rape puppies and then escape from the police.”

…nothing in that statement is technically incorrect, but it creates an imagery of hordes of nun murdering puppy rapists running from police at 180mph. And, so far as I know, no Corvette has ever been successfully used by either nun killers or puppy rapists to escape capture.

At some point in that book they will point out that a firearm is something like 183 trillion (or some ridiculous number) times more likely to shoot someone you know than it is to kill a burglar.

This is true too. But think about it.

If a woman shoots a crazy ex boyfriend who’s coming after her with a rope and a knife she shot someone she knows, not a burglar. If a drunken and psychotic neighbor kicks in someone’s door at 2AM with an axe and gets shot the victim killed someone he knew. If a crazy ex employee seeks vengeance against a former employer and gets shot, it’s someone he knew.

And if a burglar runs when confronted by an armed homeowner he didn’t get killed so he’s not included in that statistic.

That’s how the anti-gun side plays with “facts.” You would do well to really study that book and develop your critical thinking skills by finding ways to refute their arguments.

BTW I would love to see that book.

Quoted: Quoted: Why don't you find a way to raise hell for assigning a politically biased book to impressionable youngsters? You never win in my school. Here is a example: We have a micro wave in school in the lunch room. You can only use it for food you bought from the lunch room. We had a petition going around school got over 1000 signitures and they just threw it out. Here is another one. Sam's a place that is kind of like a deli/subway and it sells the school italians which are subs if you don't live in new england for 13 cents the school lunch room charges 2.50$. I am the only one that finds that insane that is also the same prace that Sam's charges. The goverment is also I think doing something called price shrinking thats when they pay for a % of the lunch they pay the people who do the lunch program so they people who do the lunch program are also riping off the goverment it seems. They just say we charge 3.50 for a italian and the goverment pays a dollar and lowers it to 2.50.

You need to stop typing until you learn what a paragraph is, and how to structure a sentence.

I'll see about getting this book from the public library, 30 seconds of googling tells me that it's a very biased, anti-gun book pushing the "guns-r-bad" message very hard.

Editorial Reviews Amazon.com High school sophomores Gary Searle and Brendan Lawlor have had enough. Day in and day out, for more than two years, they have been harassed, beaten up, and cursed out by most of the jocks at Middleton High--especially by football player Sam Flach. Armed with guns they've stolen from a neighbor's collection, Gary and Brendan storm a school dance, booby trap all the doors with homemade bombs, and prepare to turn their high school caste system upside down with a violent show of force. When it's all over, Sam Flach is alive (but without any hope of a future football career), Gary has killed himself, and Brendan is in a coma, after being beaten almost to death by other students who managed to disarm him. Could this tragedy have been prevented? Who, if anyone, is to blame? Consisting of short, related statements from students, parents, school administrators, and even the troubled shooters themselves, Give a Boy a Gun attempts to give a voice to the countless sides of the school violence issue. Is this novel disturbing and at times difficult to read? Yes, of course it is. But it is also an articulate, well-rounded cross section of the many viewpoints on gun control, peer bullying, and the high school social order since the traumatic events that took place in Littleton, Colorado. While Strasser readily acknowledges that there are no easy solutions to the problem of school violence, this powerful book will be a useful tool for parents and teachers alike in exploring this issue and finding some ways of resolving the tragic escalation of teen violence. (Ages 12 and older) --Jennifer Hubert --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Quoted: I believe the Black talon projectile became a media topic after ER docs complained of the very sharp fragments (talons) The Brady Bunch and the VPC raised a stink. I thought it had something to do with docs sticking their fingers in the holes and getting cut through their gloves.  No, the Brady Bunch and the VPC raised that spectre. Yes I have actually overheard an ER doc explain the simple method of distingushing between an abdominal GSW and a chest GSW by using a finger in the entry wound.

Perhaps so, but bullet fragments tend to be jagged, no matter what the bullet design was.  Ever had a separated jacket bounce back at you off a steel plate?

What happened was Winchester came out with an advertising campaign for the Talon that touted the "claws" and the anti-gunners ran with it.  It was mostly advertising hype.  It backfired.  This isn't to say that the Talon/SXT bullet doesn't perform as well as any other hollowpoint, but it's not some thermonuclear superbullet like the anti-gunners tried to make it sound.

Quoted: I think it was coated with teflon, for reliability and feeding.

Nah...you're thinking of "Cop Killers"  

Quoted: Quoted: I believe the Black talon projectile became a media topic after ER docs complained of the very sharp fragments (talons) The Brady Bunch and the VPC raised a stink. I thought it had something to do with docs sticking their fingers in the holes and getting cut through their gloves.  No, the Brady Bunch and the VPC raised that spectre. Yes I have actually overheard an ER doc explain the simple method of distingushing between an abdominal GSW and a chest GSW by using a finger in the entry wound. Perhaps so, but bullet fragments tend to be jagged, no matter what the bullet design was.  Ever had a separated jacket bounce back at you off a steel plate? [blue]No i do not shoot at steel plates. What happened was Winchester came out with an advertising campaign for the Talon that touted the "claws" and the anti-gunners ran with it.  It was mostly advertising hype.  It backfired.  This isn't to say that the Talon/SXT bullet doesn't perform as well as any other hollowpoint, but it's not some thermonuclear superbullet like the anti-gunners tried to make it sound.

Makes sense to me as this event was a long time gone and my memory is not what it once was.  

I think I remember hearing that the Media had a video or something that shows a Black Talon entering the body and bounceing around. Like bounceing off the inside of the skin.

The "black" armor piercing ammo was called black rhino and then black razor after the makers of black rhino sued. It was a sabbotted AP round that was nasty. none ever made it into production though.

13th Warrior, every time you post I want to tear my eyes from my skull.  You need a Composition class in the worst way.  As an English teacher, your posts are blasphemous.  Whoever your previous English teachers have been, I pray that God may have mercy on their souls.  

For the love of all that is holy, start reading - anything.  You need to see the English language communicated through the written word.  Your version of English is an abomination to literate people around the globe.

Quoted: 13th Warrior, every time you post I want to tear my eyes from my skull.  You need a Composition class in the worst way.  As an English teacher, your posts are blasphemous.  Whoever your previous English teachers have been, I pray that God may have mercy on their souls.   For the love of all that is holy, start reading - anything.  You need to see the English language communicated through the written word.  Your version of English is an abomination to literate people around the globe.

ROFL!

Quoted: 13th Warrior, every time you post I want to tear my eyes from my skull.  You need a Composition class in the worst way.  As an English teacher, your posts are blasphemous.  Whoever your previous English teachers have been, I pray that God may have mercy on their souls.   For the love of all that is holy, start reading - anything.  You need to see the English language communicated through the written word.  Your version of English is an abomination to literate people around the globe.

A little rough maybe?

Is this "Sam's" you talk about the same as the one on mainstreet in lewiston?

Quoted: 13th Warrior, every time you post I want to tear my eyes from my skull.  You need a Composition class in the worst way.  As an English teacher, your posts are blasphemous.  Whoever your previous English teachers have been, I pray that God may have mercy on their souls.   For the love of all that is holy, start reading - anything.  You need to see the English language communicated through the written word.  Your version of English is an abomination to literate people around the globe.

Thank you I try. O yeah, Fuck you.

''Is this "Sam's" you talk about the same as the one on mainstreet in lewiston?''
Yeah, or it is the one down by the Wal-Mart area.

Quoted: Quoted: 13th Warrior, every time you post I want to tear my eyes from my skull.  You need a Composition class in the worst way.  As an English teacher, your posts are blasphemous.  Whoever your previous English teachers have been, I pray that God may have mercy on their souls.   For the love of all that is holy, start reading - anything.  You need to see the English language communicated through the written word.  Your version of English is an abomination to literate people around the globe. Thank you I try. O yeah, Fuck you. ''Is this "Sam's" you talk about the same as the one on mainstreet in lewiston?'' Yeah, or it is the one down by the Wal-Mart area.

I'm just messing with you a little, 13.  Don't take it personally.  I can't help myself.  When I know someone is in high school, I feel like it's my duty to flame 'em, just a little.

PS.  There is no need to capitalize a word after a comma, unless it's a proper noun.  In this case "fuck" is not a proper noun.  

PPS  Alright, seriously, I'm done messing with you now.