F-22 Raptors to Japan?


Via InsideDefense.com, Inside The Air Force (ITAF) reports that momentum is building within the Air Force to sell the ultra-advanced F-22A Raptor abroad to trusted U.S. allies, as a way of plussing up numbers and production. The USAF originally initially intended to purchase almost 700 F-22 fighters, but that was cut to 442, then 339, and recently cut again to just over 180. These cuts have had obvious effects on the cost per aircraft.

One of the most likely export prospects is Japan. The Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) currently has four fighter jet models in its fleet: F-15J/F-15DJ Eagles, its F-4EJ "Kai" and RF-4EJ reconnaissance Phantom IIs, the Mitsubishi F-2s (a larger, longer-range variant on the F-16C), and F-1s. The F-1 entered service in 1978 and is being replaced by F-2s; the JASDF introduced the F-4EJ in 1973, and has indicated it will begin retiring the platform some time next decade. This gives the Japanese a number of choices....

Since the F-2s will no longer be built, they cannot replace the F-4EJs and RF-4EJs. Japan may choose to go ahead and buy "kaizen" F-15Js at a comparable cost, and rely on attached pods like ReeceLight or SHARP for reconnaissance. Alternatively, it could move for a broader capability upgrade and buy a 4th or 5th generation fighter.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would be attractive for budgetary reasons and can perform very capably in the air-air and reconaissance roles, while its set partnership model smooths technology transfer issues. Unfortunately, its single-engine design would be a concern during maritime combat air patrols, and its declared status as a strike fighter works against it in a country that's so insistent on the purely defensive functions of its weaponry.

The Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault Rafale would be possibilities, and coupling them with the MBDA Meteor long-range air-air missile might be very attractive given Japan's needs. Yet there has been no indication of interest from Japan at this stage, and such a move would mean deviating from Japan's strongly American industrial links and equipment infrastructure. That would be no small move in a society that sets such store by deep industrial relationships.

On the other hand, Japan's combination of long sea zones and growing rivalry with China make a long-range, twin-engine, supercruising and stealthy interceptor that has unprecedented reconnaissance capabilities and leverages existing Japanese partnerships with Lockheed and Boeing nearly irresistible. Seen in that light, the JASDF's interest in the F-22 is less surprising.

A Lockheed Martin official has confirmed that a proposal to sell Japan F-22s in some form of downgraded "international variant" is working its way through the Air Force with the support of the Japanese government, and is now "at the three- or four-star level" and among civilian decision-makers. Yet the F-22's extensive and not fully-revealed capabilities have made many in the USA very nervous about exporting it, and thereby risking a security breach around its electronic architecture, stealth aspects, or next-generation data links. The aircraft's $130 million flyaway cost also makes all but the most serious buyers hesitate.

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Personally I doubt Japan gets F-22A's, even "light" versions. It would be interesting though if selling some to Japan would increase our number of Raptor's though. Food for thought.

evening shift bumpitude......

Unless Japan has become far less friendly to the US since the days that the F-15s were sold, at the time the top-of-the-line fighter, I don't see why not.

NTM

We need allies, and Japan is a top notch selection IMO.

Let them buy.

only getting 180??? ouch

Quoted: Unless Japan has become far less friendly to the US since the days that the F-15s were sold, at the time the top-of-the-line fighter, I don't see why not. NTM

We sold them F-15s (actually Mitsubishi licence-built them) that were basically an airframe with basic flight controls/instruments, they added their own avionics and fire control systems.  The F-22 is a totally different animal, the stealth characteristics of the airframe itself, along with the coatings, etc. are classified.  The avionics are completely integrated, the processors do all functions (fire control, flight control, etc) at the same time and interchangably, it makes it almost impossible to "de-class" it to the degree that significant technology transfer didn't happen.  Those same issues have been bugging the shit out of the F-35 camp for a while.  

I personnally think all planes sold should have some secret collapsable curcuit that could be triggered remotly somehow that we don't tell them about...In mid air all of a suddon all their planes lose power for no reason.......muhwahwawawawaw. But I like to think like that...

Why don't we see if they would be willing to "sponsor" a few wings of USAF ones that will be stationed over there instead.

Quoted: Why don't we see if they would be willing to "sponsor" a few wings of USAF ones that will be stationed over there instead.

Good plan!  We (active duty) have to "share" planes with the Guard and Reserve these days anyway, why not paint some more crap on them, we all know who will be maintaining them anyway.  

yea, they're on our side, and it's not like they are going to lie about being our friend, I mean what could they possibly do, give us friendship metals and then bomb us, again.

Good deal with China and NK in the area

Quoted: Quoted: Unless Japan has become far less friendly to the US since the days that the F-15s were sold, at the time the top-of-the-line fighter, I don't see why not. NTM We sold them F-15s (actually Mitsubishi licence-built them) that were basically an airframe with basic flight controls/instruments, they added their own avionics and fire control systems.  The F-22 is a totally different animal, the stealth characteristics of the airframe itself, along with the coatings, etc. are classified.  The avionics are completely integrated, the processors do all functions (fire control, flight control, etc) at the same time and interchangably, it makes it almost impossible to "de-class" it to the degree that significant technology transfer didn't happen.  Those same issues have been bugging the shit out of the F-35 camp for a while.

I remember reading that the F-35 was being designed fron the on-set to have to have that capability with stealth and avionics but like you said it was a tough nut to crack. Avionics I can see, not sure with the stealth though? Maybe a little extra gap here, rough edge there....

Quoted: Personally I doubt Japan gets F-22A's, even "light" versions. It would be interesting though if selling some to Japan would increase our number of Raptor's though. Food for thought.

Here is to hoping that this sale would lower the per unit cost enough that the USAF could afford a few more than the 180 they are currently slated to buy!

More F-22s being built.  Good with me.

F-22s in the hands of a proven ally positioned close to probable threats.  Also good with me.

No probs there.

Quoted: I'm hearing 'YES' too that one too. A number of countries would like to get their hands on the F-22 but the 'Full Fat - High Caffiene' version comes with too high a sticker price. Two countries have been offered the 'real deal' so far; Britain (did not want it), and Australia, (wanted it but could not afford it). Now, if a 'cheaper' version hit's the shelves I'm betting Austraila will be back in the frame as they really wanted the F-22 but just could not find the money. Japan and Israel would be the other natural purchasers. ANdy

I wonder how much cheaper Lock-Mart can make it and how much of a perfromance/avionics downgrade before it makes sense to buy an F-35...Bascially will Lock-Mart be competing against it's own airframes?

I want one dammit!

180 airframes? I thought that the cut was overturned? Seriously, we should have just not gone ahead with the JSF program and replaced all our current fighters with F-22s and done away with the high-low mix. I know on the surface this would be unworkably expensive, but people seem to forget that unit cost drops when production rates increase as well as amortizing the R and D cost over more airframes. (also the JSF is artifically cheap due to significant portions of it's tech being deved by the ATF program) The billions spent on the JSF fly off, development, and production coulf have paid for over a thousand F-22s and we'd be better off.

Quoted: yea, they're on our side, and it's not like they are going to lie about being our friend, I mean what could they possibly do, give us friendship metals and then bomb us, again.

Well, we can always nuke em again if worse comes to worse.

Quoted: More F-22s being built.  Good with me. F-22s in the hands of a proven ally positioned close to probable threats.  Also good with me. No probs there.

We need to sell more to allies.

We need to buy more for ourselves.

Fucking with China no doubt.  We need to sell to Taiwan and S.Korea too.  Minus our top secret stuff though.  I think we should donate a few to Taiwan just to piss the ChiComs.

I have the feeling they're going to need them.

Quoted: only getting 180??? ouch

If 1 F22 can sit down 5 F-15s in a dogfight how man Migs or Sukhois would that be?  The SU-37 or 47 will not go into production last I heard and they would need to be at gun-range to have a chance.  The Mig-35 as yet is not a functional idea and the the Sukhoi 27, 30, and 33 are overmatched by an
F-15.  This deal would be all about squelching future Chinese/N.Korean imperialism.

Quoted: Quoted: only getting 180??? ouch If 1 F22 can sit down 5 F-15s in a dogfight how man Migs or Sukhois would that be?  The SU-37 or 47 will not go into production last I heard and they would need to be at gun-range to have a chance.  The Mig-35 as yet is not a functional idea and the the Sukhoi 27, 30, and 33 are overmatched by an F-15.  This deal would be all about squelching future Chinese/N.Korean imperialism.

Your missing the point, the contraction of airframe procurment can not be allowed to continue, with the ever increasing value of aircraft the loss of fewer aircraft becomes unsustainable, thus the kinds of missions you are willing to take on become more and more selective. This is a bad trend, a very bad trend.

I don't really know what to say because frankly I don't know much about aircrafts, but I say fuck no if there's a chance they pull some Israeli stunt and turn around and sell shit to our enemies.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: only getting 180??? ouch If 1 F22 can sit down 5 F-15s in a dogfight how man Migs or Sukhois would that be?  The SU-37 or 47 will not go into production last I heard and they would need to be at gun-range to have a chance.  The Mig-35 as yet is not a functional idea and the the Sukhoi 27, 30, and 33 are overmatched by an F-15.  This deal would be all about squelching future Chinese/N.Korean imperialism. Your missing the point, the contraction of airframe procurment can not be allowed to continue, with the ever increasing value of aircraft the loss of fewer aircraft becomes unsustainable, thus the kinds of missions you are willing to take on become more and more selective. This is a bad trend, a very bad trend.

I understand that they cost too much to lose and acquiring new ones will be a problem also I really do not like cutbacks on fighters that outclass the competition so profoundly.  But the F-22 is for sweeping the skies initially and very selective target bombing at high speed, I imagine maintainence of air superiority will be largely met by the F-35 and F-15.

I recall a story from a number of years ago, back when the Cold War was still going on, when the U.S. licensed technology used in our attack submarines to our Japanese "allies".  (IIRC, it had something to do with the propeller technology that made our subs so quiet).  Well, a Japanese company (Toshiba, IIRC), reverse-engineered our technology, then promptly sold it to the Soviets.  The Soviets, of course, incorporated that technology into their own subs, as a result of which the Commie subs became much harder for our own subs to detect, our sailors' lives were put at risk, and our overall national security was gravely jeopardized.

Anyone here recall the rest of the details from that scandal?

Anyway, my point is, we should be careful about giving out our most closely held technological secrets.  Even to our closest "allies".

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: only getting 180??? ouch If 1 F22 can sit down 5 F-15s in a dogfight how man Migs or Sukhois would that be?  The SU-37 or 47 will not go into production last I heard and they would need to be at gun-range to have a chance.  The Mig-35 as yet is not a functional idea and the the Sukhoi 27, 30, and 33 are overmatched by an F-15.  This deal would be all about squelching future Chinese/N.Korean imperialism. Your missing the point, the contraction of airframe procurment can not be allowed to continue, with the ever increasing value of aircraft the loss of fewer aircraft becomes unsustainable, thus the kinds of missions you are willing to take on become more and more selective. This is a bad trend, a very bad trend.

You have to wonder if the number is being held up due to UCAV development. There was talk of cutting the number of F-35's to increase Raptor purchase, but I think that got shit-canned.

Quoted: Why not? If they go bad on us we just refuse to renew their software license key and the things can't fly ... it's all done via the GPS signals and a secret Microsoft back door in the fighters OS.

Right, and then some Norwegian will write the patch and you'll be able to download it off Kazaa.

I'm not so worried about government resale but of individuals or corporations selling out. One of our guys sells it, we can toss them in the brig. One of theirs sells...we can....be very angry?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: only getting 180??? ouch If 1 F22 can sit down 5 F-15s in a dogfight how man Migs or Sukhois would that be?  The SU-37 or 47 will not go into production last I heard and they would need to be at gun-range to have a chance.  The Mig-35 as yet is not a functional idea and the the Sukhoi 27, 30, and 33 are overmatched by an F-15.  This deal would be all about squelching future Chinese/N.Korean imperialism. Your missing the point, the contraction of airframe procurment can not be allowed to continue, with the ever increasing value of aircraft the loss of fewer aircraft becomes unsustainable, thus the kinds of missions you are willing to take on become more and more selective. This is a bad trend, a very bad trend. You have to wonder if the number is being held up due to UCAV development. There was talk of cutting the number of F-35's to increase Raptor purchase, but I think that got shit-canned.

They will not publish video of UCAV air-to-air test.  Thier manueverability is said to be around 25Gs even with special suits the best pilots cannot take more than 11, you do the math.  They are far stealthier too and less costly.  War just became a video game.

Quoted: Why not? If they go bad on us we just refuse to renew their software license key and the things can't fly ... it's all done via the GPS signals and a secret Microsoft back door in the fighters OS.

It is funny I am here on break sitting between 4 half built F-16s I will tell you all of those production #'s seem to chage daily. I hope they sell something to someone sone so I don't get laid off this year.

Australia has never shown any official interest in getting the F-22.  Considering how they have ramped up defense spending over the last few years and recent purchases of big ticket items with more on the way, suggesting they 'cant afford' it is probably not accurate.  

That said it would be nice to see a couple of Raptors in Japanese aggressor paint jobs.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: only getting 180??? ouch If 1 F22 can sit down 5 F-15s in a dogfight how man Migs or Sukhois would that be?  The SU-37 or 47 will not go into production last I heard and they would need to be at gun-range to have a chance.  The Mig-35 as yet is not a functional idea and the the Sukhoi 27, 30, and 33 are overmatched by an F-15.  This deal would be all about squelching future Chinese/N.Korean imperialism. Your missing the point, the contraction of airframe procurment can not be allowed to continue, with the ever increasing value of aircraft the loss of fewer aircraft becomes unsustainable, thus the kinds of missions you are willing to take on become more and more selective. This is a bad trend, a very bad trend. You have to wonder if the number is being held up due to UCAV development. There was talk of cutting the number of F-35's to increase Raptor purchase, but I think that got shit-canned. They will not publish video of UCAV air-to-air test.  Thier manueverability is said to be around 25Gs even with special suits the best pilots cannot take more than 11, you do the math.  They are far stealthier too and less costly.  War just became a video game.

Which is exactly the reason that the USAF decided to put the YF-45 (aka X-45C) on hold, because it threatened their precious manned fighter programs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am sick of my service being run by the fighter mafia, driving a fighter should preclude you from calling the shots, not be a prerequisite. We need more missiles and space guys in pentagon.

Quoted: Which is exactly the reason that the USAF decided to put the YF-45 (aka X-45C) on hold, because it threatened their precious manned fighter programs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am sick of my service being run by the fighter mafia, driving a fighter should preclude you from calling the shots, not be a prerequisite. We need more missiles and space guys in pentagon.

Wouldn't put it past them.

They need to realize the battlefield is different and can be changed (which is why the Fighter Mafia came into existance in the first place, oddly enough).

What I see is a F-22 Raptor with 3 F-45's on it's wing, and the pilot "managing" his UCAV's while fighting himself.

Quoted: What I see is a F-22 Raptor with 3 F-45's on it's wing, and the pilot "managing" his UCAV's while fighting himself.

Probably a very accurate prediction, but I see AWACS backenders doing the UCAV managing, the -22 would have to be 2 seat to really work well in that role.  Now an F-15E (or K) model with 4 stealthy UCAVs on its wing, would be a hell of a surprise to the guy that though he was a one ship.  

Quoted: Why not? If they go bad on us we just refuse to renew their software license key and the things can't fly ... it's all done via the GPS signals and a secret Microsoft back door in the fighters OS.

lol

CO: EVERYBODY SCRAMBLE!!!

<pilot gets into F22>

F22: I'm sorry, Your 14-day Windows Trial period is up. Would you like to validate by Mail, Telephone, or the Internet?

Pilot: Fuck...

Quoted: I recall a story from a number of years ago, back when the Cold War was still going on, when the U.S. licensed technology used in our attack submarines to our Japanese "allies".  (IIRC, it had something to do with the propeller technology that made our subs so quiet).  Well, a Japanese company (Toshiba, IIRC), reverse-engineered our technology, then promptly sold it to the Soviets.  The Soviets, of course, incorporated that technology into their own subs, as a result of which the Commie subs became much harder for our own subs to detect, our sailors' lives were put at risk, and our overall national security was gravely jeopardized.

As I recall it, that incident wasn't nearly as treacherous as you describe it - Essentially, Toshiba sold CNC machining equipment to the Soviets that was theoretically capable of producing quieter sub props. The actual design of the props used on American subs was never part of the deal.

Still, your point is well-taken: NOBODY (with the possible exception of the immediate British Empire) is beyond selling us out, if the price is right.

The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI.



Buy American my ass.  

Quoted: The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI. Buy American my ass.

Now here is a twisted thought, what if we buy an additional block of F-22s down the road like we have on occasion with the F-15, what if  the japanese companies building under liscence under big LockMart. The Mitsubishi F/A-22, that's an odd thought.

Quoted: Quoted: The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI. Buy American my ass.   Now here is a twisted thought, what if we buy an additional block of F-22s down the road like we have on occasion with the F-15, what if  the japanese companies building under liscence under big LockMart. The Mitsubishi F/A-22, that's an odd thought.

No wierder than the Mitsubishi F-4, F-15, H-47, etc.  They have been license building US .mil products for three decades at least.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI. Buy American my ass.   Now here is a twisted thought, what if we buy an additional block of F-22s down the road like we have on occasion with the F-15, what if  the japanese companies building under liscence under big LockMart. The Mitsubishi F/A-22, that's an odd thought. No wierder than the Mitsubishi F-4, F-15, H-47, etc.  They have been license building US .mil products for three decades at least.

Oh, I know, I was just saying if we bought license built airframes from them, that would strike me as odd.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI. Buy American my ass.   Now here is a twisted thought, what if we buy an additional block of F-22s down the road like we have on occasion with the F-15, what if  the japanese companies building under liscence under big LockMart. The Mitsubishi F/A-22, that's an odd thought. No wierder than the Mitsubishi F-4, F-15, H-47, etc.  They have been license building US .mil products for three decades at least.   Oh, I know, I was just saying if we bought license built airframes from them, that would strike me as odd.

Gotcha, sorry bout that.  That would never happen, congresscritters would lose some pork.  Even foreign aircraft like the EH-101 and HH-65  have to be "built" here to make them happy.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI. Buy American my ass.   Now here is a twisted thought, what if we buy an additional block of F-22s down the road like we have on occasion with the F-15, what if  the japanese companies building under liscence under big LockMart. The Mitsubishi F/A-22, that's an odd thought. No wierder than the Mitsubishi F-4, F-15, H-47, etc.  They have been license building US .mil products for three decades at least.

Three??  

Between the years of 1939 to 1945, the Japanese are reported to have manufactured 487 L2D variants. The L2D is the Japanese specification for the DC-3 and DC-2. Built in two factories: Showa Hikoki, Koygo and Nakajima Hikoki, 416 were produced in Showa Hikoki. The Japanese L2D DC-3 variant was nicknamed "Tabby". The First Japanese DC-3 was produced in September of 1939. The Japanese purchesed manufacturing rights from Douglas on February 24th of 1938 for the sum of $90,000. Unkown to the US, was that this purchase was made under the direction of the Imperial Japanese Navy for use as a military transport. The L2D variants were fitted with a variety of Kinsei Engines ranging from (models 43 to 62) 1000hp, 1350hp and to 1560hp on the later wooden models. Showa L2D: A Japanese company, Mitsui, acquired a license to produce the DC-3 in Japan and Manchuria

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Japan Air Self-Defense Force F-22J, built by Mitsubishi, Ishikawajima-Harima HI and Kawasaki HI. Buy American my ass.   Now here is a twisted thought, what if we buy an additional block of F-22s down the road like we have on occasion with the F-15, what if  the japanese companies building under liscence under big LockMart. The Mitsubishi F/A-22, that's an odd thought. No wierder than the Mitsubishi F-4, F-15, H-47, etc.  They have been license building US .mil products for three decades at least.   Three??   Between the years of 1939 to 1945, the Japanese are reported to have manufactured 487 L2D variants. The L2D is the Japanese specification for the DC-3 and DC-2. Built in two factories: Showa Hikoki, Koygo and Nakajima Hikoki, 416 were produced in Showa Hikoki. The Japanese L2D DC-3 variant was nicknamed "Tabby". The First Japanese DC-3 was produced in September of 1939. The Japanese purchesed manufacturing rights from Douglas on February 24th of 1938 for the sum of $90,000. Unkown to the US, was that this purchase was made under the direction of the Imperial Japanese Navy for use as a military transport. The L2D variants were fitted with a variety of Kinsei Engines ranging from (models 43 to 62) 1000hp, 1350hp and to 1560hp on the later wooden models. Showa L2D: A Japanese company, Mitsui, acquired a license to produce the DC-3 in Japan and Manchuria www.douglasdc3.com/japl2d/1.jpg

Ok, three plus or minus 7.    I was talking about the current Japanese government, and modern military hardware.  

As long as isreal doesnt get there mits on it. They tend to let the chinese have a good go around of our technology.

Quoted: The decision to go with the F-35 has not been met with a great deal of approval within the RAAF.

I bet.  By the time the F-35 buy shrinks by 40% it will be a near $100M airplane, and the F-22 would make much better sense.  Oh well, lose a $30 part on a $60K part on a $5M engine, and the $80M airplane becomes a very fawking expensive smoking hole.  I guess the idiots didn't learn from the 300 crashed F-16s.  afsafety.af.mil/stats/f_stats.asp

Look at all the numbers for single v twin engine, its just stupid to spend 30% less on a total piece of shit with one engine.  We need about 1000+ F-22a and NO F-35s, they should all be unmanned F/A-45Cs anyway.