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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:36:41 AM EDT
[#1]
If you do it properly, no, not really.
That typically only happens rarely though, and with Western armies. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:38:31 AM EDT
[#2]
Im guessing that was just a jap thing (or german too but what do I know?). suicide for "dishonor" is foolish IMHO. I doubt any of our officers of todays US military would kill themselves over something like that
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:39:56 AM EDT
[#3]
only in hollywood.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:40:25 AM EDT
[#4]
The Germans who shot themselves I think were probably either a)gonna get hung for war crimes and knew it or b)headed for a Russian prison camp.
See the German officer surrendering in BOB. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:40:53 AM EDT
[#5]
Believe it or not, fighting to the last man isn't normally the wisest course of action.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:42:38 AM EDT
[#6]
live to fight another day.
(Plus, the military usually invests a lot of money in training an officer - and it shouldn't be thrown away unless necessary). |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:54:08 AM EDT
[#7]
The problem with that is that most of the folks we are currently fighting or could conceivably fight in the future don't give a rat's ass about the Geneva Convention. Save the last bullet for yourself. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:57:53 AM EDT
[#8]
If I were an officer, I would base my decision on who I was fighting. I would gladly surrender to Americans to save my men in a hopeless fight, but never to Afgans, North Koreans, etc.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:58:35 AM EDT
[#9]
I think the difference lies in the way Americans vs. Japanese or Germans viewed life.
As a society, Americans value the sanctity of life, even in war. The Japanese valued life very little. Soldiers were but pawns in service to the god/man, the emperor. Germans in WWII placed a higher value on life, but as stated earlier, knew that there were atrocities that they would be executed for. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:04:23 PM EDT
[#10]
The culture in which the person was raised has a lot to do with that. The Japanese in WWII believed that it was far prefferable to die than to be captured, and they considered being captured a sign of cowardice. Thus all the suicides. Generally our western civilizations place a higher premium on the worth of the individual. We don't consider POW's to be cowards. As a matter of fact, we revere them as we know that American POWs don't get treated well as a general rule. Usually our opponents in war are not terribly concerned with concepts like human rights and morality. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:05:24 PM EDT
[#11]
That was Washington's strategy in the Revolutionary War. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:07:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Therein lies the reason why many have fought to the last man. If you are facing the prospect of death while fighting or the prospect of being captured, humiliated, tortured for years and then being killed, dying while on your feet fighting is a hell of a lot more appealing. If I was in the sandbox fighting and faced the prospect of being captured and beheaded on video, I would certainly rather go down fighting if it was at all possible for me to do so. Again, America tends to fight against forces that don't give a damn about how they treat our guys, though we go out of our way to treat the prisoners we capture well. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:09:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Sure - and I agree wholeheartedly with Kiplin's sentiment about the Afghan Plain, but I do see it as somewhat "selfish" for an officer to kill themselves for perceived failture, because it precludes them from EVER serving their country again, which should be their priority. If it is a method to avoid certain death following painful torture, then I am all in favor of it. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:10:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Only if you surrender to France or kalifornia
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:14:08 PM EDT
[#15]
One of the contributors to the fall of the Japanese in the pacific was their nihilistic philosophy. Their best and brightest were certain to die on the battlefield and even those who wanted to surrender were given little quarter by our troops simply because the Japanese pulled so many stunts while "surrendered" that our soldiers were more inclined to kill everyone just so they could make it home. In so doing they lost their most experienced people who could have made a real difference in the war. Good troops are an invaluable resource. They are not expendable. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 12:17:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Officers are responsible for the welfare of all of thier soldiers and must weigh that with the tactical situation. Ammo status, wounded, water, food , all of these things weigh in the decision.
The code of conduct does not permit surrender while the means to fight are still available. If that means an E-tool in the L-shape, so be it. That being said, history is replete with a temporary cessation of hostilites between honorable adversaries to attend and or retrieve the wounded and dead, on both sides. Oneof the more modern examples of this is WW2 where German and American medics were often permitted to treat thier wounded, and did so without regard to nationality, as it should be , in my opinion. If surrender is inevitable, the OIC must make a diligent attempt to safeguard his men and MORE importantly, destroy anything that would provide intellignce to the enemy, ie: weapons, radios, vehicles, maps etc.... |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 12:16:10 AM EDT
[#17]
Hell yes it's dishonorable. That's why we are taking ejection seats out of all officer flown aircraft. Afer all if the eject they may land in enemy territory.
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Posted: 3/1/2006 10:34:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Exactly. But you need to keep into account who your'e fighting. If the enemy is known to chop off the heads of prisoners, Fighting to the death might be a better way to go. I attend a course in torture techniques used around the world a few years back, and there are some countries where I would not want to be captured for any reason. |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:16:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Fighting to the death might also be the more honorable solution if you have valuable information that could be used by the enemy. Everybody has a breaking point under torture.
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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:18:53 AM EDT
[#20]
It's not a matter if IF you break, but WHEN you break. Sometimes eating lead means winning the war. |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:06:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Being captured was always a pretty big career-stopper in the US military, until Vietnam.
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:08:32 PM EDT
[#22]
The U.S. military teaches to not surrender.
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:14:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Really? What part of the SERE class was that in? |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:18:14 PM EDT
[#24]
If you're not fighting an al queda like opponent who you might as well go down swinging with, I don't think it's as big a deal with americans as other cultures.
Although it may be shameful for a WWII german or japanese officer to surrender, arguably an officer surrounded and without hope of relief through no fault of his own still has his men to look out for. If he has not decided to fight to the last man, then killing himself and leaving his men to fend for themselves would be shirking his duty; just as abandoning his men in any other situation would be wrong. I remember reading years ago that american troops in WWII were often quicker to break under fire than germans, but they would also regroup and start fighting again, where as often once germans broke they were more likely to be out of that fight. |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:21:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Huh? |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 5:32:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Sarcasm 101 
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Posted: 3/1/2006 8:00:30 PM EDT
[#27]
I truly believe that the suicide of German officers at the end of the war was due to the fact that there was nothing left of their ideology to go on......6 years of war, kameraden, family, cities, country destroyed....all the sacrifice and effort in vain....the Army was destroyed, and the Army was an entity unto itself, not to mention the Waffen SS. For a career officer, with a sense of duty what was left? Eeking out a cur like existence at the feet of those who conquered you...I think not. I understand their actions...
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Posted: 3/1/2006 9:29:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Absolutely no dishonour if continued resistance is pointless and merely results in loss of life of your own men whilst causing limited casualties or inconvenience to the enemy.
NTM |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 10:55:57 PM EDT
[#29]
I think Douglas MacArthur could best answer this question-but the cowardly SOB didn't even wait around long enough to surrender-he got his schicken-shit ass out of the PI before the Japanese even got there!
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Posted: 3/1/2006 10:59:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Officers dont show much for it.  I would say good riddance, let the NCOs get'r dun!
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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:14:53 PM EDT
[#31]
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. Go, go, go like a soldier, Go, go, go like a soldier, Go, go, go like a soldier, So-oldier ~of~ the Queen! - Kipling. |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:31:45 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:34:35 PM EDT
[#33]
I see no dishonor in surrender or capture if your death would gain nothing.
As for suicide to avoid being captured, that's a tough call. I "know of" some guys that were captured and later released. It would have been a shame had they killed themselves. However, I certainly would not want to be used for media attention like the beheaded hostages were, not to mention I would rather avoid torture if at all possible. Remember that whole Special Forces rescure operation that resulted in a helicopter crash and the deaths of many of our elite in Afghanistan? Those remaining guys on the ground didn't get exploited on TV because they died in the field. My guess is that they were not executed on the spot, but died shooting back at the enemy. I don't think they would have let the enemy get close enough to capture them without putting sidearms to their own heads first. |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:41:59 PM EDT
[#34]
As long as a serviceman has fought bravely (and there is little or nothing to be gained through his holding out at the cost of his life), his surrender or capture is considered neither shameful nor dishonorable.
ANdy |
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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:42:06 PM EDT
[#35]
I would never be taken alive, not by today's enemy!!!!
 And in this case, that's not a "no clue" smiley. |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 1:38:26 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 3/2/2006 1:51:11 AM EDT
[#37]
Yep |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 3:29:22 AM EDT
[#38]
....Or waiting to be hanged for warcrimes? Or being subjected to the same inhuman treatment that you had given to Russians on the Eastern front? Don't discount that as a reason. |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 3:42:40 AM EDT
[#39]
I will never surrender the men of my command while they still have the means to resist.
If, for whatever reason, they don't have the means to resist, I should surrender them as a command. Its my duty to continue leading those soldiers till we escape or are released. I won't kill myself for shits and grins and its my job to lead my men and look for opportunities to escape. I can't think of many circumstances where a large unit must surrender. I would prefer a disband and E & E strategy myself. But you never know. |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 7:40:50 AM EDT
[#40]
I hope you don't eat with that mouth. Ever see the film "They Were Expendable"? |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 11:24:49 AM EDT
[#41]
Oops. 
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Posted: 3/2/2006 11:33:13 AM EDT
[#42]
There is no dishonor for a military officer who is captured...
...unless he comes home, gets elected to the senate and starts betraying the very freedoms he fought to defend. 
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Posted: 3/2/2006 11:34:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Camerone.
Nuff said. |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 11:38:13 AM EDT
[#44]
well, as an AF pilot, ejecting is akin to surrendering. the enemy has put you in a hopeless situation, and you are taking your chances with the enemy (while there is still a good chance of rescue of course)
I dont know of any pilots who would NOT eject if their jet was beyond saving, regardless of any "honor" factor. there is no honor in wasting your life and abilities. |
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