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Page General » General Discussion
Archived [ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATFE Smacked down HARD by Judge on Model Rocketry Issue (Page 1 of 2)
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Posted: 2/11/2006 8:38:01 AM EDT
www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=924

The problem in this case is that ATFE's explanation for its determination that APCP deflagrates lacks any coherence. We therefore owe no deference to ATFE's purported expertise because we cannot discern it. ATFE has neither laid out a concrete standard for classifying materials along the burn-deflagrate-detonate continuum, nor offered data specific to the burn speed of APCP when used for its 'common or primary purpose.' On this record, the agency's decision cannot withstand judicial review.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:39:33 AM EDT
[#1]
good to hear!
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:40:33 AM EDT
[#2]
I guess this is confirmation of what many of us on this board already knows, they make up rules and regs as they go along, and sometimes those rules make absolutely zero sense, the agency is arbitrary and capricous.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:47:49 AM EDT
[#3]

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:48:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=924

The problem in this case is that ATFE's explanation for its determination that APCP deflagrates lacks any coherence. We therefore owe no deference to ATFE's purported expertise because we cannot discern it. ATFE has neither laid out a concrete standard for classifying materials along the burn-deflagrate-detonate continuum, nor offered data specific to the burn speed of APCP when used for its 'common or primary purpose.' On this record, the agency's decision cannot withstand judicial review.


I don't know what that means, but just the sound of it scares the bejeebers out of me.  

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:49:32 AM EDT
[#5]
It also shows that there are some smart Judges out there too.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:50:32 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=924

The problem in this case is that ATFE's explanation for its determination that APCP deflagrates lacks any coherence. We therefore owe no deference to ATFE's purported expertise because we cannot discern it. ATFE has neither laid out a concrete standard for classifying materials along the burn-deflagrate-detonate continuum, nor offered data specific to the burn speed of APCP when used for its 'common or primary purpose.' On this record, the agency's decision cannot withstand judicial review.


I don't know what that means, but just the sound of it scares the bejeebers out of me.  


Some of our board EOD freaks will be along shortly to explain it to you while you change your shorts!
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:52:16 AM EDT
[#7]
But I recommend you start with this Wikipedia entry:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:00:48 AM EDT
[#8]
i LOVE when the ATF gets bitch slapped by the judicial system. Too bad it doesnt happen more
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:17:58 PM EDT
[#9]
A rare setback for this overreaching agency.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:20:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Fellas, please remember to call it by its true name: ATFE.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:21:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
It also shows that there are some smart Judges out there too.


A smart one..............in a field of THOUSANDS.........

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:25:24 PM EDT
[#12]
The problem in this case is that ATFE's explanation for its determination that APCP deflagrates lacks any coherence. We therefore owe no deference to ATFE's purported expertise because we cannot discern it. ATFE has neither laid out a concrete standard for classifying materials along the burn-deflagrate-detonate continuum, nor offered data specific to the burn speed of APCP when used for its 'common or primary purpose.' On this record, the agency's decision cannot withstand judicial review.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:28:13 PM EDT
[#13]
ATFE has neither laid out a concrete standard for classifying XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, nor offered data specific XXXXXXXXXXX....


Well, at least they are consistent.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:31:50 PM EDT
[#14]
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:35:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:41:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

.


And those rockets require FAA clearance to be launched, and many of those that you are talking about can be flown in only one or two locations on specific dates.  One of those locations is White Sands Missile Range.  I don't see any cause for concern.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:43:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go guns shoot thousands of rounds per minute feet carry payloads close to 100# 30 round clips and have bullets that travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about on the street.

.


I guess we should only have hunting rockets huh?

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:45:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

.

Hey! Go ban semiautos while you're at that.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:47:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

.


And those rockets require FAA clearance to be launched, and many of those that you are talking about can be flown in only one or two locations on specific dates.  One of those locations is White Sands Missile Range.  I don't see any cause for concern.


+1 we get notams on the launches here.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:52:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

.


Sounds like the same demonizing that the 50 BMG gets... You should go to work for the other side. You've got the patter down to a T.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:52:46 PM EDT
[#21]
This is good news to those of us who build and launch model rockets.  

This is what I have been able to gather from a couple places:

Basically the ATF was saying that the solid fuel rocket motors we use were explosive devices, and thus we needed the same licenses to use them as mining companies, Demo companies, etc.  (Basically forcing 99% of the hobby to stop launching cause we couldn't afford the licenses and the storage requirements.)

The engines burn propellent for thrust, then there is a delay, followed by a small explosive that deploys the recovery system.  The recovery charge was supposedly what the ATF was basing its ruling on, even though its far less than a 1/4 oz in weight.

Currently you can buy the engines at a hobby shop for $10-$12 for a 3 or 4 pack, depending on size. (A-E)  Anything larger requires a license from the National Model Rocketry group, whose name escapes me at the moment.  (IMRA maybe?)      


And the majority of the rockets are not SAM's.  They are MAYBE a pount and they can go up just over 3,000 feet.   Most don't break 1,500 without a second stage.  Some are capable of carrying an egg.    The larger ones can go higher, but require FAA launch clearance from special locations, like White Sands.  
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:58:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

.



Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:58:53 PM EDT
[#23]
So basically this is a hobby for the serious and not terrorists?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:07:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Yeah. Kinda like guns.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:07:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Sounds like the same demonizing that the 50 BMG gets... You should go to work for the other side. You've got the patter down to a T.


Yep.

I can easily visualize those EXACT words coming out of either Dianne Feinstein's or Sarah Brady's pie-holes...
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:12:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.
.


Yeah I would just as soon not have America turn into the land of scared little pussies everytime someone goes 'boo' but by the look of things I'm not going to get my wish either.



Fuckin' amazing what you get on the board these days.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:15:18 PM EDT
[#27]
What amazes me is the people who whine hardest when their Ox is being gored is the first to offer up their neighbors Ox.

Like the Trap Shooters and the cough*socalledsportsmen*cough.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:26:44 PM EDT
[#28]
LOL

Sounds like All Things Fun said "Ban this because it's dangerous. Trust us." and the courts said "No."

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:30:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Trying a new sig.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:36:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

.



Yeah and if (God Forbid) they ever figure out how to attach those Pre-Ban Lawn Darts to the business end of their missiles,  we would have untold WMD raining down on our streets.

Thank God you and the ATFE are looking out for our welfare.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:38:29 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:

And the majority of the rockets are not SAM's.  They are MAYBE a pount and they can go up just over 3,000 feet.   Most don't break 1,500 without a second stage.  Some are capable of carrying an egg.  


And what if that egg had been injected with a deadly virus, eh?

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:40:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Based on the judge's statement regarding the ATF's expertise, I'd say that now there's a court precedent.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:44:50 PM EDT
[#33]
You still have to get FAA clearence for the fun stuff.

We where afriad of lunching a rocket we built in 2002, do to homeland security stuff.

It had a ceicling aroud 2000ft and had a electronic guidence system in it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:53:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:

And the majority of the rockets are not SAM's.  They are MAYBE a pount and they can go up just over 3,000 feet.   Most don't break 1,500 without a second stage.  Some are capable of carrying an egg.  


And what if that egg had been injected with a deadly virus, eh?


There are probably more guarunteed methods of delivering a deadly egg payload than strapping it to a model rocket and pushing the button. It didn't get my green army man into space, and it surely wont drop that egg right where you want it.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:04:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
good to hear!


a big +1  
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:24:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
BAN MODEL ROCKETS!!!!

It's for the children.

more like a surface to surface missile with a solid rocket.
some of these rockets go thousands of feet carry payloads close to 100# and travel many miles down range.  i would just as soon not have them flying about.

+1

You could shoot down an aircraft with one of those things.  Ban them all.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:13:37 PM EDT
[#37]
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:20:40 PM EDT
[#38]
You are gonna put a nuke on a 6 foot model rocket?

Who is gonna make that warhead?

What makes a small rocket smaller than a Kaytusha an 'excellent' delivery vehicle?

That is like calling a Volkswagon Beetle an excellent Indy racecar.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:26:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:32:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.


As opposed to a pickup or a backpack? (or an RC aircraft )

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:33:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.


Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:33:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:42:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.


Quite right, senator feinstein.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:53:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.



Why would ABC need a warhead?   They don't need a warhead, they deliver their weapons directly into our homes via network TV.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:07:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.


I think you'd have a better chance of dropping your "warhead" onto yourself than onto your target.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:18:37 PM EDT
[#46]
I filled the nose cone with gun powder as a kid once...
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:26:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:

.


http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/wet-pants-01.jpg



http://www.take-a-pen.org/images/Lies/pisschild2.jpg

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 10:04:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Does this mean that people do not need to get a LEUP to buy bigger rocket motors such as H-L motor sizes. It will mak my life easier.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 10:18:53 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
all i am saying is it's an excellent delivery vehicle for an ABC warhead.


Umm...that you chucky?

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:18:00 AM EDT
[#50]
A good buddy of mine at work got out of model rocketry several years ago.
He stated that the hassle, badgering, hounding, needling, frog-hair splitting by the BATF was beyond putting up with.
It was so bad, he sold his stuff and got out of the hobby altogether.

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