What governments do when they decide to take away your RKB arms

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What governments do when they decide to take away your RKB arms

Posted: 2/2/2006 8:07:41 PM EDT

Was just reading a light little history from the 1948 Israeli war, and this made me make a face. It's about how the Brits decided to call in the Israeli's RKBA right after WWII, where the indigenous population was useful enough to defend Palestine from Rommel's Armies, but became "a dangerous force" at the whim of British officials:

"As soon as the war ended British policy reverted to that of the period immediately before the war and arms were confiscated and some Haganah members were arrested and tried, one notable case being that of Eliahu Sacharoff who received a sentence of seven years' imprisonment for possession of two more cartridges than his firearms licence allowed. "

Ain't gummint GREAT?

From Wikipedia. (halfway into the article)

Posted: 2/2/2006 10:35:29 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Was just reading a light little history from the 1948 Israeli war, and this made me make a face. It's about how the Brits decided to call in the Israeli's RKBA right after WWII, where the indigenous population was useful enough to defend Palestine from Rommel's Armies, but became "a dangerous force" at the whim of British officials:

"As soon as the war ended British policy reverted to that of the period immediately before the war and arms were confiscated and some Haganah members were arrested and tried, one notable case being that of Eliahu Sacharoff who received a sentence of seven years' imprisonment for possession of two more cartridges than his firearms licence allowed. "

Ain't gummint GREAT?

From Wikipedia. (halfway into the article)

You mean they tried to take the guns away from the groups that were bombing civilian trains and hotels? Why that's a very narrowminded attitude.

It's always much more convincing an argument when using a historical episode as an example when you put it in the proper context or use it accurately. Your example is somewhat akin to those that blame the US for using the A-Bombs on the poor Japanese without bothering to mention that the various peace overtures they had ignored and their stated intent and obvious capability to fight to the last japanese man, woman and child.

You're also implying that they were overall successful in their disarmament efforts.

Posted: 2/2/2006 10:52:18 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Was just reading a light little history from the 1948 Israeli war, and this made me make a face. It's about how the Brits decided to call in the Israeli's RKBA right after WWII, where the indigenous population was useful enough to defend Palestine from Rommel's Armies, but became "a dangerous force" at the whim of British officials:

"As soon as the war ended British policy reverted to that of the period immediately before the war and arms were confiscated and some Haganah members were arrested and tried, one notable case being that of Eliahu Sacharoff who received a sentence of seven years' imprisonment for possession of two more cartridges than his firearms licence allowed. "

Ain't gummint GREAT?

From Wikipedia. (halfway into the article)

You mean they tried to take the guns away from the groups that were bombing civilian trains and hotels? Why that's a very narrowminded attitude.

It's always much more convincing an argument when using a historical episode as an example when you put it in the proper context or use it accurately. Your example is somewhat akin to those that blame the US for using the A-Bombs on the poor Japanese without bothering to mention that the various peace overtures they had ignored and their stated intent and obvious capability to fight to the last japanese man, woman and child.

You're also implying that they were overall successful in their disarmament efforts.

If you read the article, you will see that the quote from it shows the disarmament happening immediately after the war ended. As I recall, the trouble with the British didn't happen for a year, year and a half after the war ended.

So it does appear that the Brits were trying to diminish the power and authority of the forces they created to support the war effort, precisely because they were afraid feelings of independence and self-rule would take root.

I suspect that this "clamping down" was probably another of 100 reasons why most of England's former colonies threw off the chains - it provided the people with enough impeutus to seek that which was attempting to be prevented.

I LIKE the lesson that people can't be disarmed - it's a Reality Check for tyrants everywhere. People will always acquire the means to defend themselves, and if they have the proper spirit, to seek the maximum good that they are capable of obtaining. In the case of the American people, it was expressed in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In the Israelis, they achieved their freedom with help from the world - possibly at the cost of being forver obliged to deal with the daily ravings of the Suicide Bomber types.

In the Arab world, they achieve the status of subjects... or slaves, even when they're armed. It's the best they can do.

Posted: 2/2/2006 11:10:01 PM EDT

[#3]

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Quoted:
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If you read the article, you will see that the quote from it shows the disarmament happening immediately after the war ended. As I recall, the trouble with the British didn't happen for a year, year and a half after the war ended.

Wrong on so many counts;

Lehi, an armed underground organization founded by Abraham Stern in June 1940, after the Irgun Zeva'i Le'umi decided on a truce on armed activities against the British during the war. Lehi declared a continuation of the struggle against the British, opposed the voluntary enlistment of Jews into British Army, and even attempted to contact representatives of the Axis.
During January and February 1942, clashes between members of the "Stern group" and the British authorities reached their peak. The British forces reacted by arresting and killing leading members of the group. Abraham Stern himself was caught and killed by British police officers. In early 1944, Lehi resumed its operations, joining in the struggle against the British through affiliation to the Jewish Resistance Movement. During and after this period, Lehi carried out sabotage operations and armed attacks on British military objectives and government installations.

From 1943 Irgun Zeva'i Le'umi was headed by Menahem Begin. In February 1944, Irgun declared war against the British administration. It attacked and blew up government offices, military installations and police stations. The Jewish Agency and the Haganah moved against the Etzel in a campaign nicknamed the Sezon.

November 6, 1944: Lord Moyne, Minister of State for the Middle East is assassinated by the Irgun

In May 1945, telephone poles were sabotaged throughout the country, and home-made mortars were set up opposite various government targets in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. In Jerusalem, mortars were put into position opposite the King David Hotel (the seat of the British military command and the government secretariat), and opposite the government printing press (alongside the railway station). In Tel Aviv, the mortars were located near the Sarona military camp (now the Kirya government area in Tel Aviv). The oil pipeline linking the Iraqi oilfields to the Haifa refineries was also sabotaged. On July 23, 1945, a joint unit of Irgun and Lehi fighters, under the command of Yehoshua Weinstein (Benyamin) blew up a railway bridge adjacent to the Arab village of Yibne (present-day Yavne).

In November 1, 1945, the three organizations conducted their first joint attack, the "Night of the Trains". That night, Haganah units sabotaged some 153 spots along railway tracks throughout the country, and blew up patrol launches in Jaffa and Haifa ports, while a joint Irgun-Lehi unit, commanded by Eitan Livni, attacked the main railway station at Lydda.

And during this entire period there was constant clashes between the Jewish and Arab populations...

Posted: 2/3/2006 4:44:15 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
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Quoted:
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If you read the article, you will see that the quote from it shows the disarmament happening immediately after the war ended. As I recall, the trouble with the British didn't happen for a year, year and a half after the war ended.

Wrong on so many counts;

Lehi, an armed underground organization founded by Abraham Stern in June 1940, after the Irgun Zeva'i Le'umi decided on a truce on armed activities against the British during the war. Lehi declared a continuation of the struggle against the British, opposed the voluntary enlistment of Jews into British Army, and even attempted to contact representatives of the Axis.
During January and February 1942, clashes between members of the "Stern group" and the British authorities reached their peak. The British forces reacted by arresting and killing leading members of the group. Abraham Stern himself was caught and killed by British police officers. In early 1944, Lehi resumed its operations, joining in the struggle against the British through affiliation to the Jewish Resistance Movement. During and after this period, Lehi carried out sabotage operations and armed attacks on British military objectives and government installations.

From 1943 Irgun Zeva'i Le'umi was headed by Menahem Begin. In February 1944, Irgun declared war against the British administration. It attacked and blew up government offices, military installations and police stations. The Jewish Agency and the Haganah moved against the Etzel in a campaign nicknamed the Sezon.

November 6, 1944: Lord Moyne, Minister of State for the Middle East is assassinated by the Irgun

In May 1945, telephone poles were sabotaged throughout the country, and home-made mortars were set up opposite various government targets in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. In Jerusalem, mortars were put into position opposite the King David Hotel (the seat of the British military command and the government secretariat), and opposite the government printing press (alongside the railway station). In Tel Aviv, the mortars were located near the Sarona military camp (now the Kirya government area in Tel Aviv). The oil pipeline linking the Iraqi oilfields to the Haifa refineries was also sabotaged. On July 23, 1945, a joint unit of Irgun and Lehi fighters, under the command of Yehoshua Weinstein (Benyamin) blew up a railway bridge adjacent to the Arab village of Yibne (present-day Yavne).

In November 1, 1945, the three organizations conducted their first joint attack, the "Night of the Trains". That night, Haganah units sabotaged some 153 spots along railway tracks throughout the country, and blew up patrol launches in Jaffa and Haifa ports, while a joint Irgun-Lehi unit, commanded by Eitan Livni, attacked the main railway station at Lydda.

And during this entire period there was constant clashes between the Jewish and Arab populations...

Obviously, your recollection of the history of the Palestine terror war is much better than mine is. I stand corrected. It sounds like the agitators from the '30s really turned up the pressure on the struggling Brits, knowing that the World War would keep them off balance.

Still, they couldn't get that guy on any better charge than the possession of two more cartridges than he was allowed?

If there was that much craziness going on in Palestine, and if he was some kind of "fellow travler" fifth-columnist type, then why couldn't they charge him with Treason and be done with it?

I guess what I am really asking is, "Why is it always the GUNS they have to go after?"

Posted: 2/3/2006 4:52:39 PM EDT

[#5]

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I guess what I am really asking is, "Why is it always the GUNS they have to go after?"

Easy, with guns a people can say 'With this shit we will not put up!' and do something about it.

It's a lot harder to overthrow a .Gov or revolt when you are disarmed.

ANdy

Posted: 2/3/2006 5:03:56 PM EDT

[#6]

Why do 99% of ARFCOM members have enough arms to equip a squad or more and ammo for a dozen major fire fights????

Yea, just cause it s a hobby

Posted: 2/3/2006 6:52:33 PM EDT

[#7]

I guess what I am really asking is, "Why is it always the GUNS they have to go after?"

So you can't defend yourself when they come and have they way with your women and children. Or line you up in straight lines and force you into cattle cars. Or when they come to march you into gas chambers.

Posted: 2/3/2006 7:30:42 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
I guess what I am really asking is, "Why is it always the GUNS they have to go after?"

So you can't defend yourself when they come and have they way with your women and children. Or line you up in straight lines and force you into cattle cars. Or when they come to march you into gas chambers.

[shudder] Thanks for giving me the willies. Nice mental picture, that, Jews being shoved into rail cars.

I'll climb a tower with my PTR before I ever see it happen here.

Posted: 2/3/2006 10:46:22 PM EDT

[#9]

The activities before Israel became a State/Nation have always lead me to somewhat discount some of the crocodile tears from some of the Israeli politicians and Israel supporters regarding Palestinian terrorism. Israel might not have wrote the book but they contributed a few chapters. Especially the chapter on why it might be the only thing that works when you have few or no other weapons. They then forgot to read it because they have played into the terrorists hand in several ways.

Posted: 2/3/2006 11:06:35 PM EDT

[#10]

In the period between the end of WWII and the expiration of the British mandate, the Brits turned a blind eye to importation and possession of firearms by the Arabs, but vigorously enforced the same regulations against Jews. The King David Hotel was the HQ of Mandatory Military Forces, and the Brits elected to ignore warning(s) of the impending bombing. There is no such thing as a terrorist attack on military forces.

It is usually safe to assume that people who "somewhat discount some of the crocodile tears from some of the Israeli politicians and Israel supporters regarding Palestinian terrorism" are motivated by something much older and vastly more odious than the activities of the Stern Gang or the bombing of the King David Hotel.

Posted: 2/4/2006 12:07:18 AM EDT

[#11]

'We don't take orders from the Jews!' ~ British officer's response to a warning delivered to the telephone operator of the King David Hotel before the attack, and also delivered to the French consulate and the Palestine Post newspaper.

According to Irgun sources, the message read "I am speaking on behalf of the Hebrew underground. We have placed an explosive device in the hotel. Evacuate it at once - you have been warned."

Brits had always denied there was any warning...but their own police records, revealed in the 1970s, admitted there had been warnings.

How likely is it that some British officer made that imprudent remark?

Well, as the Wikipedia article mentions, "the British army commander in Palestine, General Sir Evelyn Barker, in an order written only a few minutes after the bombing, commanded that 'all Jewish places of entertainment, cafes, restaurants, shops, and private dwellings' be 'out of bounds to all ranks'.

He concluded: "I appreciate that these measures will inflict some hardship on the troops, but I am certain that if my reasons are fully explained to them, they will understand their propriety and they will be punishing the Jews in the way the race dislikes as much as any by striking at their pockets and showing our contempt for them."

The order was rescinded two weeks later after much outrage at its "anti-semitic nature".

Uh, very likely, I think.

Eric The(ZionistTexan)Hun