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Posted: 1/29/2006 9:37:28 PM EDT
[#1]
I recall there were SOME LE that did want to go in,
but were ordered not to. |
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Posted: 1/29/2006 9:42:59 PM EDT
[#2]
I know it's going to sound like internet commando BS, but I would rather have been killed going in too early with out knowing what was going on then have to live with myself knowing I could have done more.
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Posted: 1/29/2006 9:43:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Damn. Just damn!!! This quote is unbelievable:
"People like Rick, they don't die old men. They aren't destined for that and it isn't right for them to do so. It just isn't right, by God, for them to become feeble, old, and helpless sons of bitches. There are certain men born in this world, and they're supposed to die setting an example for the rest of the weak bastards we're surrounded with." 
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Posted: 1/29/2006 9:51:12 PM EDT
[#4]
I know that the Columbine subject has been beat to death but, it wasn't that Cops were afraid to get hurt. The orders were not to enter. Any individual Officer who wanted to disobey those orders had to consider the consequences of doing so. On one hand, he could have saved the day and been a hero. On the other hand he could have caused more harm to innocents. Then he's faced with the fact that he disobeyed orders and caused more harm. His career is over, everything he owns is gone and he may even face jail time. The blame lies with the Command decisions and the departments inability to resond properly in a timely manner. Not with the Officers who responed. |
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Posted: 1/29/2006 9:56:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Command=CYA |
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Posted: 1/29/2006 9:57:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Everyone is a hero and a general when away from the perimeter
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Posted: 1/29/2006 10:00:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Most of the LEO *now* have training to go in ASAP when arriving to a "shooting in progress" scene. It is simply called "Active Shooter" training for larger buildings (schools, apt buildings, etc). All it really requires is 3 or 4 officers, and it can be from different agencies, to go in as a team. Real simple stuff, but very effective.
I fault politics and the lack of "foresight" on the behalf of the LEO agencies in the area. Of course, no one saw something as vile as what happened at Columbine to begin with, so it is a difficult issue to debate anyways. |
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Posted: 1/29/2006 10:01:32 PM EDT
[#8]
You are correct... he gave orders to evacuate the offices immediately following the first attack. Out of several hundred employees that worked for the company he and I believe ONLY one other MS employee were killed... killed while evacuating others. The messed up thing was that the PO was trying to send everyone back into the building he said no frickin way... my people are getting out of here. The guy was a bad ass. |
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Posted: 1/29/2006 10:09:33 PM EDT
[#9]
And you could have had police officers, pissed off parents, ignorant reporters, and panicked kids running around, shooting each other, getting shot, and tripping explosives, while the shooters escaped and went on a rampage through the town. Like what happened at Beslan.
I'm no expert on this, but there are a lot of smart people who are, and they are the ones that think of these standard procedures. Containing the situation first seems like a smart move from here. |
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Posted: 1/29/2006 10:30:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Before Columbine, most shooters could be counted on to grab hostages and then negotiate. Rushing into such a scene would most of the time cause more casualties than it saved. In well over 90% of the cases, once swat arrives on scene, there is no more killing. Columbine changed all that. These guys were more like Arab terrorists in that they did not want to negotiate, they had no demands and only wanted to kill as many people as they could.
I spent 10 years on a swat team and we never practiced for anything like Columbine, much less patrol officers. I agree with JRBL1A1 when he said, it was a lack of foresight on behalf of the police agencies. We just did not plan for such an event at a school. The scariest thing is to think what else we have not planned for. If Columbine caught us flat footed, something else will in the future. I believe that most agencies now teach immediate entry in what is called an "active shooter". Even schools have changed due to Columbine as they were not prepared either. The old contingency plan was to evacuate in any type of situation. Now most of them "shelter in place". They lock the doors and get down. Harris and Klebold knew the evacuation procedures and had plans to kill the students in the spot where they staged during the evacuation. Fortunately it did not work. It is easy to sit back and monday morning quarterback. Had this been a typical situation with hostages and some officer or officers ran in, it might have caused the hostage takers to start shooting. In that event, the officers would have been branded as a bunch of yahoos looking to make a name for themselves and thereby causing innocent people to die. The police would have been criticized for being overly agressive and bloodthirsty. As it turned out, the officers were criticized for not going in. I would bet that most of those officers at the scene would have gladly gone in during the shooting and their commanders would have sent them if they knew what was happening. I don't think it was from cowardice. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:01:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Rick Rescorla was a hero loooong before Columbine. Unlike those who made the decisions that day, he had brains and balls. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:08:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Amen rikwriter. Sometimes you put it together neatly, without the pages of crap that manifest here. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:19:13 AM EDT
[#13]
That quote speaks volumes. As for Columbine, I can't imagine anyone outside the building hearing shots and wondering, "Gee, I wonder what's happening in there?" It is inconceivable that anyone in command could hear shots being fired inside a school and hold back the troops. I can't comprehend it. I'm sure a number of officers were frustrated by that decision. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:21:23 AM EDT
[#14]
You know what pisses me off about Columbine aside from the inexcusable inaction? The fact that when the cops DID go in, they performed a recon by fire in a school FULL OF INNOCENT KIDS AND TEACHERS! They were SHOOTING to cover each other as they advanced, shooting at blank walls...not knowing WHO might be on the other side of the wall! |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:27:01 AM EDT
[#15]
They would have had to fire me later then. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:27:37 AM EDT
[#16]
Questioning a combat vet, nice. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:34:34 AM EDT
[#17]
I believe NCPatrolAR was talking about the 99% of the people that post on HERE, "what I would've done"......... First take off your "US Army Speshul Forces" t-shirt................... Unlike Mr Rescorla. I could go over it again............... The SRO emptied his handgun at the suspects, he was alone outnumbered, and facing people with long guns. Other initial responders fired at the suspects. - Of course the armchair generals on ARFCOM started yelling "backstop" At least 1 SWAT person fired an M4 type weapon when the suspects fired as the evacation was going on. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I could also go into the reason that "perimeter, negotations, and resolution" was adopted. In days of old, think up to the 60's or 70's, the police USED to run into situtations like that, or robbery alarms, etc. etc. They would immediately engage any BG's. BG's would also engage them. It lead to a lot deaths, police, BG, and bystander. People REALLY don't like it when the police use force, just think of the threads that are on this site REGULARLY. That's why the police decided another stategy was in order. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Generally "surround and talk" is VERY succesful at talking the BG's out without causing ANY casualties. The problem is that Columbine, the San Diego McDonald's "Massacre", and any number of school and workplace shootings involve "shooters" who simply want to kill as many other people as possible. Surrounding them simply traps them in an area with a supply of potential victims. Police have changed their strategies for such incidents. They will still "surround and talk" for most circumstances. They will engage suspects that are "actively shooting". - they did so at Red Caboose Daycare in Madison WI, and the Red Cloud School shooting in MN. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:36:07 AM EDT
[#18]
I think they determined two or three students were hit by police gunfire rather than the two shitstains who started it all, during the investigation. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:43:57 AM EDT
[#19]
Before Columbine, few, if any shooters were still active when the police arrived. Most had been previously subdued or stopped on their own. Columbine presented a new scenario which the police were totally unprepared for. Now, there are few police departments that don't have a plan for active shooters.
This can be compared to the events of 9-11. Before 9-11, the thing to do if your plane was hijacked was keep your mouth shut, your head down, and go home alive. Now few people would expect to survive a hijacking, and many would resist. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 3:45:06 AM EDT
[#20]
Run to the sound of the guns!!
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:38:03 AM EDT
[#21]
While I wasn't in Special Forces, I was in the Army, in the Infantry, and even the minimal training we received in dealing with civilian hostages would have told me the police at Columbine responded in a highly unprofessional manner.
That contradicts every official and eyewitness statement I read about Columbine, which was that both suspects were dead before any of the police entered the building or began evacuating civilians. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:51:14 AM EDT
[#22]
And having "balls" is the thing that can complicate a situation even worse. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.... everyone can mark the mistakes after the event happens. As already discussed, it was doctrine at the time to establish a perimeter and attempt to contain a situation like that. Now that we have seen that isn't always the answer, most departments have some form of emergency deployment program in place. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:52:47 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:53:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Well, that's a possibility the cops at Columbine didn't have to worry about. Do you? |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:54:33 AM EDT
[#25]
They are unquestionably not "heroes on the perimeter," which is the slander you offered to sully his memory. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:55:32 AM EDT
[#26]
Since I too have an INF background; I'm interested in how you think the police should have responded that would meet your threshold of being "professional". |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:56:22 AM EDT
[#27]
The person quoted in the first post has BTDT. I guaran-damn-tee you he doesn't fit your description. But hey, someone criticized fellow cops, so you have to attack them don't you? |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:57:06 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:57:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Shooting blindly into a building where you know innocent civilians are located, when you haven't actually seen or been shot at by the opposition AIN'T professional. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:58:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Oh, you couldn't actually tarnish anything he did. You'd have to be one tenth the man he was to even try. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:02:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Post your source for this, because in any coverage of the incident *I* have read, theres never been any claim that this happened. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:02:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Oh you hurt my feelings with that one. Done kissing his ass? |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:03:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Nope. Done showing yours? |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:05:09 AM EDT
[#34]
I haven't even attempted to show my ass in here. Can handle it when someone gets question on their comments? |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:05:19 AM EDT
[#35]
No one SAW it happen, but they found bullet holes in the interior walls that came from the firearms the police were using. As both killers were dead before the cops entered the school, there was no legitimate target for them to have been shooting. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:06:48 AM EDT
[#36]
I can handle anything. I don't have to respect it, however. And yes, you have shown your ass. If you weren't trying, then I guess you were just being yourself. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:12:20 AM EDT
[#37]
You DO know that officers outside the school engaged K & H at least twice before they shot themselves, right? |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:14:57 AM EDT
[#38]
The bullet holes were inside the school, in interior walls. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:15:29 AM EDT
[#39]
Just like during the Rodney King riots in LA. Police were in parking lots asking for permission to go into the 'riot zone' --for lack of a better term-- but were consistently told to stay where they were until they got orders. Failure to comply would have most likely gotten them prosecuted as well as fired. Rock>those cops<Hard place. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:23:28 AM EDT
[#40]
When a situation gets brought up, dont get made when people dont agree with what is being said. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:25:10 AM EDT
[#41]
Which walls inside the schhol? I've never heard of the police other than after being engaged by one of the two shooters. Also, I believe the movement to the initial breach point was made by using a firetruck as cover; not fire and manuver. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:28:36 AM EDT
[#42]
It wouldn't have taken an entire SAWT team to end that massacre. Those two assholes would have been no match for one well trained officer with a rifle and some skill.
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:29:22 AM EDT
[#43]
Once again, post your source for your information, or I will consider it simply more internet LEO bashing. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:30:28 AM EDT
[#44]
I don't get "made" because you disagree with Rick Rescorla. I get disgusted when you call someone who saw some very intense combat and was a hero multiple times over a "hero from the perimeter." You shit all over yourself and now you're asking everyone "Hey, what's that smell?" |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:30:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Refering to attempting to take them down inside the school or from outside? |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:31:33 AM EDT
[#46]
Unfortunately, it was this incident and N Hollywood that started the movement back to patrol rifles. You could say that it would have been nice to have a lot of different equipment, but it simply wasn't something that was routinely issued, and in many cases in many agencies is STILL not routinely issued. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:32:16 AM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:33:02 AM EDT
[#48]
That's the problem with law enforcement nowadays. It used to be, if a warrant needed serving, you sent in 3-4 uniforms and maybe a detective. SWAT teams were reserved for hostage situations, barricaded suspects, things like that. Nowadays, they throw tactical teams at every problem and overanalyze every situation to death. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:34:51 AM EDT
[#49]
Yeah, because NO ONE ever dealt with a rampaging shooter before, right? Oh, I forgot...yes, they did. It's happened many times through the years. Hindsight isn't required...all that was needed was a bit of FOREsight and some balls. |
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Posted: 1/30/2006 7:34:51 AM EDT
[#50]
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