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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:02:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Unless they shoot throught the door, I announce their impending demise and wait.
If they try to come through that door, after I announce my intention to kill them if they don't leave, then they get one. But I'm NOT shooting through a door simply because somebody is standing on the other side of it. Seems to violate a rule aobut weapon safety. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:03:22 PM EDT
[#2]
I don't have enough moolah banked to shoot thru doors.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:04:19 PM EDT
[#3]
+1 |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:05:48 PM EDT
[#4]
wait.
if they come through the door it will be clear what thier intention are. BG/zombie= shoot to slide lock cop= he will shoot you in the leg, claiming to be after the dog, and you will be really glad he only has to qualify twice a year on his POS glock. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:08:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Take cover behind a dresser or something, announce that I have every intention of killing who is out there, if I get no response and the door knob starts turning, then yes I will shoot through the door
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:08:56 PM EDT
[#6]
I would wait until I have a visual, but if I saw it was an intruder who was not a cop I would let him have it. Too many bad stories these days on the news to take a chance and give the purp a chance to shoot first.
This is my thought, but in the heat of the moment who knows how it would pan out with the heart pounding and adrenaline rushing. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:11:59 PM EDT
[#7]
WTF! Is this a trick question? Somone breaks into my house and is outside my bedroom door? Shoot...all day long!! 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:12:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Sounds reasonable. I concur. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:21:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Personally, I would not wait until they were right outside my door to announce my intentions. I would have both my wife and I behind the best cover we could find and I would announce from there, that I had every intention of killing whomever was out there. If I get no response and then see the flashlight /feet by my door......................hmmmmmm.........BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG!
Just my .02 |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:27:12 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:33:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Here is a real case that recently occurred. Short version -- three masked guys break into a house on a home invasion robbery. They beat a teenager in the house into critical condition and roughed up the two adults.
Somewhere along the line, the homeowner gets a gun, fires a shot, and the bad guys take off out the front door. The owner gives pursuit and shoots two of them in the back, at least thirty feet from the house. Both bad guys die, and IIRC, he wounded the third, even farther away from the house. Again, short version, but those are the essentials. Good shoot? If it is a good shoot, how far can you chase the guys and still have it a good shoot? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:38:00 PM EDT
[#12]
There's no black line here, but, nevertheless, I think if you chase someone outside and keep shooting, you are runing on vey thin ice when a jury is judging your actions. If you can convince them it's reasonble, you will walk. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:44:13 PM EDT
[#13]
I think LEOs have to identify themselves, they don't sneak in, and they don't come in alone. So if the intruder didn't indetify themselves before entering your home, I think you would be safe in thinking it wasn't LE, and fire away.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:44:52 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:46:33 PM EDT
[#15]
NO SHOOT
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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:50:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Here is a real case that recently occurred. Short version -- three masked guys break into a house on a home invasion robbery. They beat a teenager in the house into critical condition and roughed up the two adults.
Somewhere along the line, the homeowner gets a gun, fires a shot, and the bad guys take off out the front door. The owner gives pursuit and shoots two of them in the back, at least thirty feet from the house. Both bad guys die, and IIRC, he wounded the third, even farther away from the house. Again, short version, but those are the essentials. Good shoot? If it is a good shoot, how far can you chase the guys and still have it a good shoot? You can articulate this simply by the sheer violence of the crime. A grand jury will understand that anyone who is that brave and bold to enter someone's house and commit such a violent crime should not be allowed to get away. Even if you have to chase them two blocks you would be justified because if you let them get away they would do it again. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:06:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Add me to that list. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:13:02 PM EDT
[#18]
i have no idea what that means. what cops.. even no knock entry sneak around and eventually 'block the light under your bedroom door'? i mean.. they may not knock but once in there's a bunch of them all screaming at the top of their lungs 'get down on the floor'. the whole scenario is sorta unrealistic..... what fool bottles himself up in one room with intruders outside and waits for them to take the initiative? and then finally starts blasting thru a closed door... |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:19:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Morally? Only thing the guy did wrong from a moral perspective is let one get away. No, I wouldn't convict, and in most rural areas you would probably have at least one guy like me on the jury. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:22:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Once out the front door and running away, they become fleeing suspects. No, you cannot shoot them, clear cut case against the law since they no longer represent a threat to you. However, in FL one can shoot them in the back inside the house if they make that one little mistake and run towards the back (preferably bedroom area) of the house, since they still represent a threat to you or your family. That said, were I on the jury I would vote to acquit. To answer the origin of the thread, no I would not shoot through the door. Nor would I give any warning (one for tactical, and second for legal reason). Door opens, ID the target, start the mag toward empty. Since in my case there is only one other person in this house, anyone else is fair game. Those with others in the home, particularly children, it's a different situation; more of a reason not to shoot through a closed door. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:32:18 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't believe LE does slow and deliberate entries when they raid a house. I think there would be no doubt if it was LE, and if I'm not mistaken they have to announce themselves by saying "Sheriffs department, search warrant", or what ever agency, they don't sneak in, robbers, rapist, and murderers sneak in! You would never have time to put the family and pets in a room and wait, if it was LE. I work for the fire dept. and we always announce ourselves, when we enter a residence, even if they called for us, if we didn't we would be putting ourselves in serious danger, we may be at the wrong address, you never know. Point is, any legitmate entry into your home, should be announced before entering. Not announced, not legit.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:33:04 PM EDT
[#22]
I am a cop and if I had my family in one room and was fearful that someone was in my home and planning to harm my family I would shoot. If the police lawfully enter your home without being let in, they have an obligation to anounce their identity. There can be many reasons why a LEO may enter a home without a warrant and without being let in. If someone reports a dead body inside, a burglary in progress, etc. the police may be able to enter wihtout being let in but they should knock and announce first and if they do enter without being let in they should announce who they are before entering. Failure to do so and the consequences land squarely on the shoulder of the officer.
I am not advocating shooting first and asking questions later. In that scenario, I would announce myself from inside the room and inform whomever was on the other side of the door that I was planning to shoot if they did not announce themselves or leave immediately. This would give me a certain amount of protection and help to avoid shooting someone and regretting it later. You just never know, it could be a drunk neighbor who entered the wrong house or something. Just my .02. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:33:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Not who, what.
Breaking, or broke? Past tense or presence tense. I dont shoot to stop an attempt break in. However once inside the home. not the yard, not the door step, not the patio or porch, but the living quarters of the home, then in my state i'm justified in shooting.
Dog should be in the common areas of the house, not in the sleeping quarters. his job is second line of defense.
By this point i'm already on 911 on speaker phone. I know response times in my neighborhood are 3-4 minutes. If its cops, they have already put themselves out at our location and dispatch will let us know its the police. My dog is in the common areas of the home, so either he is munching on the intruder or he has been nuetralized. Since my wife and i are both in the bedroom in your scenario then we are pretty well set up. We can take turns covering the door while donning the soft body armor under the bed. We dont shoot until we start taking fire or the intrudor busts down the locked solid wood bedroom door. You cant call bullets back. I have responded to thousands of intruder calls in my work and the great majority of the time the intruder has no hostile intent. In fact the majority of the time its an unexpected family member or a drunk at the wrong house. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:35:26 PM EDT
[#24]
In the moment you will not rise to the occasion, you will defaut to your training. thats why you need to think about your responses before hand, reherse them, and back it up with continuing realistic training and places like thunder Ranch, Gunsite, ect. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:38:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Plus other clues like flashbangs, hovering helicopters, and when you call 911 the dispatcher tells you its the police. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:42:15 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:43:07 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:52:02 PM EDT
[#28]
In the original question, all of your family, and anyone else that was supposed to be in your home was accounted for, and the intruder is in the interior of your home. Drunk neighbors, or anyone without hostile intentions, don't come through locked doors. LE would announce their intentions before entering, so the intruder would not be justified in being in your home.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:55:11 PM EDT
[#29]
There's always a chance of that golden BB i guess. Having been involved in several shootings in the last 15 year of mil & LE work its unlikely. ETA: The defender has the advantage of concealment and knowing the choke points the intruder can enter through. That means the defender has his weapon trained on where the intruder will be, wheile the intruder is still scanning for a target. Thats a bad place for the intruder to be unless he hads diversions like flash bangs and superior number.
If its an unidentified "threat" meaning unconfirmed threat. then yes I'm waiting until I'm taking fire. Hell its the ROE I operated under in the gulf war and Restore Hope and i always came out on top. Once the person kicks in the bedroom door its a confirmed threat at that point I'm done waiting. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:56:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Bad shoot The minute they run is the minute you stop shooting, remember you don't shoot to kill and you don't shoot to wound you shoot to stop the threat on your life. If you are chasing somebody then you are not in fear for your life. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:58:20 PM EDT
[#31]
so none of your friends or family members have a key to your house? When i was young and single I would sometimes walk to my moms house and crash on the couch if I had too much to drink rather than drive home to my own house. I had a key and would let myself in quietly to avoid disturbing anyone. By your lojic she should have shot me through the door. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:59:46 PM EDT
[#32]
How many times are we going to have to repeat this?
Shooting through doors violates Rule #4. BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=190118 Learn the Rules. Live them. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 4:04:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Apparently a few more times at least.
I'm troubled that "responsible" gun owners smart enough to work a computer still think its acceptable to shoot at shapes, movement or other bumps in the night without first making positive target identification or at least using their other resources first before resorting to gunfire. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 4:09:29 PM EDT
[#34]
You obviously have proffesional experience and training, and with that, you feel comfortable waiting. I don't have the training you have had, and don't have BA under my bed. I go to the range often, and can hit what I aim for, but given the situation, I'm not going to wait and take fire in my own home.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 4:16:05 PM EDT
[#35]
Anybody that isn't immediate family but doesn't need killed knows not to sneak around in my house.
So, if they be sneaking... Larry |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 4:20:43 PM EDT
[#36]
I tend to agree with you. But there was a recent case, in Colorado i believe, where a guy was assaulted in his own home by some friends of his (after an alcohol induced arguement during a house party) and he shot one of them in the back as they drove away. He was not convicted. Some states are pretty lienient on their "castle" laws. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 4:34:03 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm replying to the question, under my circumstances, with the following understood: #1 My doors are locked, and only I and my wife have a key, which is the case, and we don't have children #2 LE would have announced their intentions, before and after entering my home. #3 All persons that could or should have access to my home are accounted for, there are only two, but taking into account overnight guests, in the event we have company#4 Intruder has already breached one secure door, and is in the interior of my home. #5 How manypeople, and how well they may be armed is unknown.......I would not fire on someone, while they were outside my home, unless my life were in danger......... In the above scenerio, they are in my home, and I feel my life, and my wife's life are in danger, I will not take chances with my life or hers, that door gives me a small advantage, and I will use any advantage I have.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 4:43:14 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:15:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Man... this is exactly what i have been talking about with my son lately. I dont know about you folks, but I have told my son and wife that if for ANY reason they are gonefor the night and then come back because they forgot something, got in a fight with friends and decided to come home....whatever. To call first and let me know. That goes for me too. Im on call and sometimes go to work and dont come home til 2,3,4 in the morning. I know this wasnt the original subject, but I just wanted to say that in that situation, all things being equal, id probably wait til someone tried to enter and then take whatever came later, good or bad. i try to talk to my 13 yr old son and make him realize the importance of not just popping thru the window in the middle of the night. He goes with me to the range on the weekends. He knows what is at stake. for whatever it is worth, communication can save your life.........IMVHO
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:26:22 PM EDT
[#40]
I agree, if you have circumstances where someone that could or should be in your home is unaccounted for, don't fire. I work for the fire Dept. at times, I have come home in the middle of the night, I have told my wife, I will call first, and I always do. I also come in the door (day or night)saying don't shoot, its me! sounds funny, but its true. If she were gone, I wouldn't dream of firing until I saw who the person was, period! even if the person looked 6'6, and she is 5'7, until I knew 100% it wasn't her, no fire. I would much rather die myself, than accidently shooting her.
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:30:30 PM EDT
[#41]
In CA, if they come in
197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases: 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or, 198. A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of such fears alone 198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred. As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury. 199. The homicide appearing to be justifiable or excusable, the person indicted must, upon his trial, be fully acquitted and discharged So if they are in there on an illegal entry they are legally shootable. But on the porch behind the door they aren't, and if they have left and are running, they aren't. But the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of such fears alone there have been some that have been able to use this defense when the shooting was not quite up to snuff but were able to articulate the requisite fear. "They were yelling at me that they were going to come back, etc etc" Doesn't happen often, but does, We had a case here in Orange County a few years back where they were breaking into the trailer of an 18 wheeler, the driver in the sleeper cab heard them and when they came at him, and turned but yelled they were coming back to get him, he shot . Grand Jury didn't indict. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:33:14 PM EDT
[#42]
I would shout " Get the fuck out of my house"
Then shoot 2 seconds later |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:36:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Real story, short version:
A few weeks back, on off-duty Indiana State Trooper heard someone banging hard on his apartment door as if trying to break in, from some vantage point, said Troop observed the man trying to gain entry and did not recognize him. Said man continued beating/kicking door, the Trooper then fired through the door, striking and killing the suspect. IIRC this happened about midday, and AFAIK, no charges have been or will be filed? |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:44:40 PM EDT
[#44]
In this case, the outcome was that the shooter pleaded spur of the moment excitement and fear that they would come back. Fear that they would come back seems reasonable to me. How far you chase them is another question. However, the DA declined to prosecute because he didn't figure that he could get a jury to convict. Probably because at least one out of twelve people would feel the way you do. I would vote to acquit, too. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:44:58 PM EDT
[#45]
the target always has to be identified...
now days it is especially important to make certain of the intent or threat of the intruder...just some guy coming in to steal your TV is no longer a reason to shoot the guy... |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:49:41 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:55:40 PM EDT
[#47]
It reads as though the LEO's in the Incident never " Indentified" themselves or there intent,,,,I would be on the 'Mark' too!
I have no Disrespect for LEO's, Announce yourself/intent,as for the Scumbags I won't feel Guilt for my Life I Saved |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:01:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Real story, short version:
A few weeks back, on off-duty Indiana State Trooper heard someone banging hard on his apartment door as if trying to break in, from some vantage point, said Troop observed the man trying to gain entry and did not recognize him. Said man continued beating/kicking door, the Trooper then fired through the door, striking and killing the suspect. IIRC this happened about midday, and AFAIK, no charges have been or will be filed? I posted this store about two weeks ago when it happened. It was a good shoot then and still is. In a gun fight never give an even break or you will be dead.....Don't forget some home invaders yell that they are the police. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:05:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Thanks for the responses fellas. Good food for thought.
I always run through various scenarios in my head and try to figure out what and how would be the best way to respond. What weapon is closest at the time, where is the family/bystanders, am I in eminent danger etc. I always like to get other thoughts on the scenarios and this is a fine forum to do that on. Anyway, for myself in the described scenario (no it wasn't perfect as some pointed out, but was clear as to the where the threat was and that all known loved ones or things were in a known location), I am still up in the air and would imagine it would come down to that actually happening. As someone pointed out; however, I would be hard pressed to explain to my wifes family if something happened to her and I had the chance to stop itm why I did not. With that being said, I am very anxious (as in not wanting to) to shoot through doors or walls at a perceived threat. But, if you wait how much further risk do you put yourself at? Do you push it so far as to be fired at first? Tough situation and thanks again for the responses. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:15:34 PM EDT
[#50]
It has been. It's that person outside my bedroom door that didn't leave when I told him to. Larry |
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