Businesses want to make as much money as they can. Therefore they will pay as little they can to get and retain qualified employees.

Workers want to make as much money as they can. Therefore they will work for the employer that compensates them the best.

Which one of these two groups are evil?

IBTP!

If your goal is to make as much money as your skills allow, then working for someone else isn't the answer.

Employers.

Employers make all kinds of promises to potential employees and tell them what a wonderful work environment they have created and how stable the company is during the interview. They tell you that you'll only be required to travel about 20% of the time, and then they ask you to go to Washington DC for a month your third day on the job. They tell you about the benefits like the retirement plan, paid vacations, insurance and so forth. Then when they hire you stick you in an old building with asbestos insulation and switch insurance providers so that you get less coverage with a higher premium. The CEO gives speeches about 4th quarter profits being lower than expected, so they have to scrap the pension plan and switch to a "cash balance" retirement plan in which your balance goes down so that he can make his $4 million dollar end of year bonus. Then they assign you to "really big" projects that will save the company millions, so you get stuck working weekends with with vendors and consultants who make more than you for doing the same job that you do. And then after 22 years of service with the compnay, just when you are heading down the home stretch to retirement they call you in and tell you that you've been outsourced to Bangalore and that security will escort your out.

Only one of these things has ever happened to me. The rest happened to people around me.

The invisible hand of capitalism should idealy set the standard. It is the best for all involved.

that didn't take long...

This sounds like it could be turned into a Dicks, Assholes, and Pussies type of analogy ala Team America.

Now who's the dick, who's the asshole, and who's the pussy?     Figure you gotta throw unions in with it so you have 3 options to go with.

Both! Fucking capitalist pigs.

Quoted: that didn't take long...

You don't even have a job.

Quoted: Quoted: that didn't take long... You don't even have a job.

That's Clever.

Oh wait, it's stupid. Never mind.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: that didn't take long... You don't even have a job. That's Clever. Oh wait, it's stupid. Never mind.

Well if you do have a job, then you should get back to work.

You're deminishing your usefulness and profitability to your employer by wasting time on the internet.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: that didn't take long... You don't even have a job. That's Clever. Oh wait, it's stupid. Never mind. Well if you do have a job, then you should get back to work. You're deminishing your usefulness and profitability to your employer by wasting time on the internet.

Actually, I'm an internet based proctologist.

Maybe that's why I'm fascinated by you. Professional curiosity.

voting is still open!

Neither. They make a contract with each other, and they best both live up to it.

If the employee is in a union - then the employee is evil.

This is pretty much regarding small business only:

Employers are the ones investing their life savings, time, ideas and sweat, risking what they have in order to start a business, hopefully doing something they like, are good at, and gambling that they can make some money doing it.

Good employees bring a skill(s), their time, ideas, and sweat, doing whatever it takes to get the job done to make a $$, and to help their employer make $$, and in doing so, hopefully make more $$ for both.

Not-so-good employees bring themselves(sometimes) in the hope to make a $$, bitch about having to work overtime, bitch about NOT having overtime, have to be coddled, babied, bribed, and pushed to do get anything accomplished.  Etc., Etc.,

I'm a business owner with employees.

I am an evil bastard. I have a sweat shop, I don't provide a safe work place. I pay $.50/hr to the most qualified people around. I make them work 18 hrs a day/7 days a week and never pay overtime. I make them live in company housing and shop at the company store and they owe me at the end of the week.

Quoted: I'm a business owner with employees. I am an evil bastard. I have a sweat shop, I don't provide a safe work place. I pay $.50/hr to the most qualified people around. I make them work 18 hrs a day/7 days a week and never pay overtime. I make them live in company housing and shop at the company store and they owe me at the end of the week.

Do you add roaches to the mud huts they live in as well?

Quoted: Quoted: I'm a business owner with employees. I am an evil bastard. I have a sweat shop, I don't provide a safe work place. I pay $.50/hr to the most qualified people around. I make them work 18 hrs a day/7 days a week and never pay overtime. I make them live in company housing and shop at the company store and they owe me at the end of the week. Do you add roaches to the mud huts they live in as well?

I used to but the rats were eating them so I decided it wasn't worth it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm a business owner with employees. I am an evil bastard. I have a sweat shop, I don't provide a safe work place. I pay $.50/hr to the most qualified people around. I make them work 18 hrs a day/7 days a week and never pay overtime. I make them live in company housing and shop at the company store and they owe me at the end of the week. Do you add roaches to the mud huts they live in as well? I used to but the rats were eating them so I decided it wasn't worth it.

Damn, you let your employees have rats? You should deduct that free food from their pay!

I like to spread the wealth. Our motto is " Your raise is effective when you are" Also, a bonus is above and beyond, not what is required.

Quoted: Damn, you let your employees have rats? You should deduct that free food from their pay!

Them bastards.....they have been stealing food from me.

Wait.....not food from me....I eat only filet. But still they aren't paying for those rats.

I'll change that in the morning.

Iteresting topic...and answers.

My .02:

I've worked for small companies (3 Million in sales per year, under 50 employees) and major corporations (multi millions). I spent the better part of my adult career in inside sales/Customer service/marketing. In that capacity I learned that the big companies are far worse to work for than the little ones. Sure, the overall bennie package may be more attractive there, but as an employee, you're simply a number. Chances are, the guy 3 degrees away from you in the chain of command does not even know what you look like or even punch in in thesame building you do.
I spent 10 years managing a small customer service department in a manufacturing company who supplied electronic parts to first tier suppliers to the big 3 auto makers, DOD suppliers , and small appliance industry. During my time there, I saw more and more of the major accounts squeeze my boss for lower costs by threatening him with "competitors" in foreign countries. I also saw more and more of them move their manufacturing lines out of the US into foreign countries...taking our jobs and increasing my workload with customs documents not previously required, all the while strong arming my boss (the owner) into cutting his price. How'd he do that? Since his raw material costs were barely arguable with our suppliers (the cost of steel/brass and other base metals is set by the market) he did it with wage freezes, increased health cost employee contributions and elimination of the current pension plan. Christmas bonuses became a thing of the past and we were working longer hours for less profit (for the company anf the employees).
I left the company after 10 years seeking greener pastures with one of those companies who strong armed my boss. I made more money and had better bennies.
So...who was evil?
Neither one of us (my boss or me). To me the evil parties are those who force the little guys who built this country into making the choices my boss did. Why? Well, they didn't strong arm us so that THEY could compete. They were already IN the race and doing well...when my largest small appliance account moved to Mexico, the price of their manufacturing was cut in half...yet they sold their appliances at the same price they always did...Where'd the money go? The price cuts they got from us and other small business coupled with the lower mfg. costs?
Case in point: I worked for a mfg of eyeglass frames for avery short period. We sold frames to people like Lenscrafters and your optometrist for 8.00 each or LESS. I am talking NAME brand frames (Claiborne, Gant, Bugle boy). What do they sell them to YOU for? There's no middle men here...I am talking just the FRAME. Average Claiborne frame is 175.00.

eta: That company went DOA 8 monthsafter I left.

Look, I understand the whole capitalism thing...and I LIKE it.
But I can't look at all the above and say it was right...or even GOOD in the long run. Something's gonna give eventually. I have no idea how or what...but our economy IS gonna suffer at some point due to all the outsourcing and overpricing.

Me.  I'm evil.

It's the employer's responsibility to set standards for what the employer is willing to pay.

It's the employee's responsiblity to work to achieve just recompense for work performed.

These two responsibilities tend to work at cross purposes.

When an employee figures he can get a better compensation package elsewhere, he can.

Which I just did.  

But this is the deal, I'm moving from a position where I made less than market rate to one where I'm making slightly more.  My skill set is in demand, so I benefit from that.