But I literally gasped and my jaw dropped when I read this.  
Be careful out there, guys.
===================================

Fiery crash kills 7 young relatives
Tractor-trailer rear-ends car stopped behind school bus

Thursday, January 26, 2006; Posted: 12:39 a.m. EST (05:39 GMT)

(CNN) -- Seven children, including an infant, died Wednesday when a tractor-trailer rear-ended their car near Gainesville, Florida, slamming it into the rear of a school bus that had stopped to let children off.

The car, which was driven by a 15-year-old girl with a learner's permit, burst into flames, killing everyone inside, said Lt. Mike Burroughs of the Florida Highway Patrol. The truck was partially burned, its cab overturned.

In Florida, it is illegal for a 15-year-old to drive without an adult being in the car.

The accident occurred shortly after 3 p.m., four miles south of Lake Butler in northern Florida.

The bus was carrying students home from Lake Butler Elementary School and Lake Butler Middle School in the Union County School District.

Three of nine children on the bus were seriously injured and were taken by helicopter to hospitals. None of the students' injuries was life-threatening, said Lt. Bill Leeper of the Florida Highway Patrol.

But a spokeswoman for Shands Hospital in Gainesville said eight patients were transported, ages 5 to 16. Two were in critical condition; three in serious condition, said Betsy Miller.

The drivers of the bus and the truck also were injured, but their conditions weren't immediately known. Their names were not immediately available.

Video showed charred debris -- most of it unidentifiable -- strewn over a large patch of scorched ground next to State Highway 121. The vehicles were being towed from the scene late Wednesday, and the highway had not yet been reopened.

Burroughs identified the victims as Cynthia Mann and Elizabeth Mann, both 15; Ashley Keen and Johnny Mann, both 13; Miranda Finn, 9; Heaven Mann, 3; and Anthony Lamb, 20 months.

The Manns, except for Anthony, were adopted foster children; and the family was in the process of adopting Anthony, Burroughs said. Ashley and Miranda were cousins.

Nicole Mann was at the wheel of the car, said Tina Mann, her aunt.

"Yes, she's 15, she had her learner's permit, she knows how to drive," Mann said.

"Even though she was an under-age driver, it's my understanding she did not cause the accident," she said. "The same thing would have happened had there been an adult in the car with her. We'd just have one more death in the family."

Mann said her niece had just dropped off another child and was taking the rest of the children home "to get ready to go to church when this happened."

The crash occurred on Southwest 75th Way, 20 miles north of Gainesville.

All the vehicles were headed north at the time of the wrecks, Leeper said, adding, "For some reason, the (truck) driver failed to stop."

The accident occurred in good weather along a straight stretch of road that has a posted speed limit of 60 mph.

"There doesn't seem to be any reason why the semi could not observe the two vehicles stopped," Leeper said. "For some reason -- we're still trying to determine why -- he did not stop."

"It's a very chaotic scene," Burroughs said late in the afternoon. "We're having trouble removing the family members from the car because of the way the car is lodged in and tied in with the metal pieces of the tractor-trailer."

"It is a mangled, fiery crash," he said, adding that "it was a very sad moment" when victims' family members visited the scene.

The National Transportation Safety Board said a team of investigators was to arrive Wednesday night at the crash site.

"The semis drive way too fast," said Effie White, a nearby resident.

I saw this on Foxnews.com

Just too sad.  

Having 8 kids, I can say that the mother (foster mother) should be held accountable for some portion of this horrible event.  She let a 15 year old with a learners permit drive with 6 other children and no adult in the car.

Besides being illeagal, it's just criminal that the mother let it happen.  Shame on her.

Would it have made any difference???, who knows now.

I too was taken aback by this incident.  It was really sad.

Quoted: <snip>

I was thinking the same thing xanadu but we also need to consider the kid was stopped, waiting behind the schoolbus, and the semi rear-ended them all - not her fault.

Quoted: I saw this on Foxnews.com Just too sad.   Having 8 kids, I can say that the mother (foster mother) should be held accountable for some portion of this horrible event.  She let a 15 year old with a learners permit drive with 6 other children and no adult in the car. Besides being illeagal, it's just criminal that the mother let it happen.  Shame on her. Would it have made any difference???, who knows now.

The 15 year apparently was a better driver than the clown driving the truck.  She has stopped for a school bus and the idiot driving the truck failed to do the same.

Quoted: Quoted: <snip> I was thinking the same thing xanadu but we also need to consider the kid was stopped, waiting behind the schoolbus, and the semi rear-ended them all - not her fault.

Yes, but if there was a parent in the car coaching her on her driving, would she have been there at all.  Would she have gone a little faster, a little slower.  

What if she told her mom, "it's against the law for me to drive with out an adult in the car, please don't ask me to break the law mommy" it's a little like a Zen Buddism exercise - who the hell knows.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <snip> I was thinking the same thing xanadu but we also need to consider the kid was stopped, waiting behind the schoolbus, and the semi rear-ended them all - not her fault. Yes, but if there was a parent in the car coaching her on her driving, would she have been there at all.  Would she have gone a little faster, a little slower.   What if she told her mom, "it's against the law for me to drive with out an adult in the car, please don't ask me to break the law mommy" it's a little like a Zen Buddism exercise - who the hell knows.

Okay, it was all her and her mother's fault.  The truck driver knew she was driving illegally, so what he did is okay.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <snip> I was thinking the same thing xanadu but we also need to consider the kid was stopped, waiting behind the schoolbus, and the semi rear-ended them all - not her fault. Yes, but if there was a parent in the car coaching her on her driving, would she have been there at all.  Would she have gone a little faster, a little slower.   What if she told her mom, "it's against the law for me to drive with out an adult in the car, please don't ask me to break the law mommy" it's a little like a Zen Buddism exercise - who the hell knows.

Well... I don't completely agree with your example but I sure do agree completely with what I think your overall point is...  the dead kid, the live semi driver, and the dead kids parents are all in trouble legally.

Her driving, be it legally or illegally, it entirely moot.  She had stopped for a school bus, as you are supposed to do.  Idiot driving semi fails to stop, killing many people.

He is entirely at fault, everything else is irrelevant.

This particular truck driver is at fault for this incident.  But lets not turn this into a truck driver bashing thread.  For every asshat, there are 1000 professionals out there that took their training seriously and realize exactly what kind of beheamoth they are at the helm of and the extra care it takes to pilot it.

Thank you.

Quoted: Her driving, be it legally or illegally, it entirely moot.  She had stopped for a school bus, as you are supposed to do.  Idiot driving semi fails to stop, killing many people. He is entirely at fault, everything else is irrelevant.

My point too.  Legal schmegal - the semi piled into a stopped car full of 7 kids, killing them all, and a stopped schoolbus with more kids and their driver, results TBD.  Why?

ETA: No general truck-driver bashing at all (and agree - there shouldn't be over this singular incident) but it sure looks like this one guy or maybe his rig/equipment deserves some severe critique.

ETA2 (I'll just jump on to my bottom line): Seems like assigning "fault" is inevitable but the real deal is how sad and tragic this accident is.  I can't fully grasp what it would be like for surviving family members.  

Quoted: Her driving, be it legally or illegally, it entirely moot.  She had stopped for a school bus, as you are supposed to do.  Idiot driving semi fails to stop, killing many people. He is entirely at fault, everything else is irrelevant.

Before you get your panties in a wad Larry, I agree that the truck driver was totally at fault.

But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place.

When God wants them, he takes them.  Theyre serving a purpose somewhere.

Quoted: But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place.

Yep.  She never should have adopted them.

The truck driver is at fault, but I am surprised at how few people are playing the "Where the hell were the parents?!?" card, seeing how ARFCOM generally is all for being responsible for your actions, like letting your kid drive at 15, AND transport other minors at the same time.

In CA that would be breaking at least two laws - Driving without parent. Transporting minors.

Quoted: Quoted: But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place. Yep.  She never should have adopted them.

I guess you really don't get it, do you?  Maybe you should read all the posts and not just the last 3.

Quoted: ETA: No general truck-driver bashing at all (and agree - there shouldn't be over this singular incident) but it sure looks like this one guy or maybe his rig/equipment deserves some severe critique.

This is very possible.  A mechanic may have overlooked something, or like every other trucker on the road he did the "tires are up, lights work, it starts, and it stopped last night.  Lets roll" pre-trip inspection.  Lord knows I did it enough times.  Truckers aren't trained to look for out-of-whack stuff these days, and they dont know what they are looking for in depth.  My training for pre-trips was "what to look at/for" in the way of Cracks, bends, breaks, or surface damage which really wont tell you squat.  Learning to pass the DOT test doesn't mean you know your ass from a hole in the ground.  I learned my inspections on something that would have required 3 sheets of paper just to write the damned thing up on a DOT inspection.  

Just because your brakes are within spec on the amount of play they have doesn't mean that your brake shoes arent being held together by their own dust.

Just looked up the news pics..it's one of our trucks [I drive for the very same trucking company]

ETA very few things make me gasp when I read them, too

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place. Yep.  She never should have adopted them. I guess you really don't get it, do you?  Maybe you should read all the posts and not just the last 3.

xanadu, You are the one who doesn't get it. You have assumed throughout this entire thread that the children's mother put them in the car and told the 15 year old to drive them. NOWHERE does it say or even imply this anywhere in the article. As you might know, 15 year olds, when they get access to keys, have been known to take the family car out w/o parents knowing it. This might have been the case.

Would it have been different if the 15 year old was driving her sister to the emergency room for a broken arm when mom wasn't around? What if it had been mom driving the car but the license plates were expired. The car shouldn't have been on the road then, is it still the victim family's fault?

Causation of an accident is determined by which moving violations were committed that directly led to the crash. In this case, the determination of fault lies solely on the semi and its driver.

And yes, it's still a tragedy.

Very sad indeed.

The mother will live this for the rest of her life

Holy shit.

R.I.P.

I had a lady do this to a car behind me while I was stopped waiting to make a right turn into my work's parking lot. An elderly man was crossing the sidewalk so I had stopped in the right hand lane. The car behind me stopped. Then, barreling down the road, comes a lady on her cell phone and BOOM hits the car behind me which in turn hits me. The driver of the car that got sandwiched between us sped off! Guess she had warrants out for her arrest or something. The lady who caused the accident had to pay for a new bumper for my car, though I never bought it!

Bottom line, it's a tragic and horrible accident.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place. Yep.  She never should have adopted them. I guess you really don't get it, do you?  Maybe you should read all the posts and not just the last 3.

I did read all the posts, and was thinking of what you said in this one:

Yes, but if there was a parent in the car coaching her on her driving, would she have been there at all.  Would she have gone a little faster, a little slower.   What if she told her mom, "it's against the law for me to drive with out an adult in the car, please don't ask me to break the law mommy" it's a little like a Zen Buddism exercise - who the hell knows.

You have a point - a more experienced driver MAY have been more observant, while stopped, of their rear view mirrow.  They MAY have noticed in time to pull into the ditch.  

Either way, the parent or the young driver, would or would not have REACTED to the Tractor-Trailor that DID NOT STOP.

Would a parent in the car coaching her on her driving ....  what?  Illegally Zoomed around a stopped bus?  Still been buckling them all in back at the house?  Would the parent in the car coaching her on her driving gone a little faster, a little slower.  Had the parent been driving would they have gone a little faster, a little slower.  

To quote you:  "Who the hell knows."

Maybe the Zen Buddism exercise can go beyond how a young driver got stopped behind a bus unloading kids?  

Jeez, who hit who here ......  

And what does that do for the injured kids and adult in the BUS?  Would they be more or less injured had they been hit DIRECTLY by the Tractor-Trailor?

hrmmm,  hrmmmm....   Zen Buddism exercise...   would more kids on the bus be dead if the mother had driven the car somewhere else so that the Tractor-Trailor hit the bus directly?

CRAP!


 
Once again, a tragic accident regardless.

Personally, based on what is presented here, I hold the driver of the Tractor-trailer responsable.  

PERIOD.
 

Fiery crash kills 7 young relatives Tractor-trailer rear-ends car stopped behind school bus

Quoted: Quoted: Her driving, be it legally or illegally, it entirely moot.  She had stopped for a school bus, as you are supposed to do.  Idiot driving semi fails to stop, killing many people. He is entirely at fault, everything else is irrelevant. Before you get your panties in a wad Larry, I agree that the truck driver was totally at fault. But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place.

On the other hand, she may have saved the lives of the 9 kids on the school bus.

Blame is a tough game, but here it belongs entirely to either the truck driver or the trucking company or both.

Quoted: "Even though she was an under-age driver, it's my understanding she did not cause the accident," she said. "The same thing would have happened had there been an adult in the car with her. We'd just have one more death in the family.".

+1

It's a sad situation for all of them. The mother and her entire family will suffer and so will the man driving the truck. I will say a prayer for them all.

Quoted: Quoted: Her driving, be it legally or illegally, it entirely moot.  She had stopped for a school bus, as you are supposed to do.  Idiot driving semi fails to stop, killing many people. He is entirely at fault, everything else is irrelevant. Before you get your panties in a wad Larry, I agree that the truck driver was totally at fault. But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place.

I think the parents will blame themselves more than anyone else could ever attemp to blame them.

Quoted: Quoted: Her driving, be it legally or illegally, it entirely moot.  She had stopped for a school bus, as you are supposed to do.  Idiot driving semi fails to stop, killing many people. He is entirely at fault, everything else is irrelevant. Before you get your panties in a wad Larry, I agree that the truck driver was totally at fault. But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place.

xanadu, Why are you so intent on blaming the mother for something? Most kids in our rural area are good drivers at that age.

Seems to me that anyone that would adopt and care for that many kids really has thier best interest at heart. My hat's off to her, and my prayers on thier way.

The truck driver here is TOTALY at fault here, for it is his job to drive defensivly and obey traffic laws. Also, the mechanical condition of his rig is his responsibility, not some mechanic at the barn.

Still, a tragedy for all involved.. fullclip

Few things piss me off more than tailgating truckers.


15 feet back is TOO CLOSE when we're going 70 ... I'll be stopping a lot faster than you if something happens.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <snip> I was thinking the same thing xanadu but we also need to consider the kid was stopped, waiting behind the schoolbus, and the semi rear-ended them all - not her fault. Yes, but if there was a parent in the car coaching her on her driving, would she have been there at all.  Would she have gone a little faster, a little slower.   What if she told her mom, "it's against the law for me to drive with out an adult in the car, please don't ask me to break the law mommy" it's a little like a Zen Buddism exercise - who the hell knows.   Okay, it was all her and her mother's fault.  The truck driver knew she was driving illegally, so what he did is okay.

Unfortunately, that is how the scumbag that will represent the Semi driver (and his carrier) will paint this: and win.

Quoted: I saw this on Foxnews.com Just too sad.   Having 8 kids, I can say that the mother (foster mother) should be held accountable for some portion of this horrible event.  She let a 15 year old with a learners permit drive with 6 other children and no adult in the car. Besides being illeagal, it's just criminal that the mother let it happen.  Shame on her. Would it have made any difference???, who knows now.

The child driving was illegal.  Charges?  WTF?  Hold her accountable for the TRUCK DRIVER not paying attention to where he was going?

Get a clue.  The truck driver is at fault.  He hit hard enough that he pushed the car up to the bus, maybe, MAYBE if the car had been futher back he would not have pushed them as hard into the back of the bus.

the 15 yo shouldn't have been on the road period, so if she obeyed the law those 7 people would be alive today, but maybe another 7 wouldn't.   Regardless of the semi crash, I dont want 15 yo on the road without adult supervision as the law requires, they're endangering themselves and other motorists

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <snip> I was thinking the same thing xanadu but we also need to consider the kid was stopped, waiting behind the schoolbus, and the semi rear-ended them all - not her fault. Yes, but if there was a parent in the car coaching her on her driving, would she have been there at all.  Would she have gone a little faster, a little slower.   What if she told her mom, "it's against the law for me to drive with out an adult in the car, please don't ask me to break the law mommy" it's a little like a Zen Buddism exercise - who the hell knows.   Okay, it was all her and her mother's fault.  The truck driver knew she was driving illegally, so what he did is okay. Unfortunately, that is how the scumbag that will represent the Semi driver (and his carrier) will paint this: and win. I doubt it. No matter how you shake this tree, hitting someone in the rear with a school bus lights flashing driving that vehicle into the school bus injuring the children inside isn't going to set well with a jury anywhere. The DA or civil lawyers will stack the jury with family people and parents anywhere will nail this guy to a cross, derservably so. Tj

TJ, theoretically, the argument has merit: if she was not there, the semi woulda had, what, an add'l 12 feet in order to come to a complete stop WITHOUT hurting a soul.
Trust me...90% of the blame is wiped with that. Especially if that trucker drove for a national carrier: one, he's union  and two...refer back to one. (not bashing, just pointing out that the union WILL hire the beast lawyer)

Quoted: When God wants them, he takes them.  Theyre serving a purpose somewhere.

And such a kind loving way to bring them home........

I say the 15 year-old should be charged with negligent homicide.  

<-----------goes off to check if a corpse can actually be charged with a crime.

Quoted: This particular truck driver is at fault for this incident.  But lets not turn this into a truck driver bashing thread.  For every asshat, there are 1000 professionals out there that took their training seriously and realize exactly what kind of beheamoth they are at the helm of and the extra care it takes to pilot it. Thank you.

I did not realize that this was turning into a truck driver bashing thread.  I have seen nothing stated about any truck driver except this one clown.

I had the impression that with trucks this size you always have air brakes. The brakes are kept disengaged with air pressure. If their is a problem somewhere in the line which causes air pressure to drop, breaks engage. Unless he couldn't press his break pedal or some linkage broke I don't see how it would have been an equipment failure. Simply downshifting, there shouldn't have been a steep grade to prevent this, should have slowed the rig enough to at least lessen the damage done. Most of these trucks also have exhaust breaks. The systems are redundant for a reason, and if their was not an apparent effort made to slow the truck I don't see how it wasn't 100% driver error and he should be charged accordingly.

Quoted: Quoted: Her driving, be it legally or illegally, it entirely moot.  She had stopped for a school bus, as you are supposed to do.  Idiot driving semi fails to stop, killing many people. He is entirely at fault, everything else is irrelevant. Before you get your panties in a wad Larry, I agree that the truck driver was totally at fault. But the point I'm making is that the mother is to blame for her children being in that vehicle, on that road, behind that school bus in the first place.

That point is absolutely irrelevant.   This clown rammed them into the school bus.  Whether she was driving on permit or not, the only one to blame is the truck driver, not the mom nor the kid.

If it had not been her, it would have been someone else or maybe even the school bus itself.

Quoted: the 15 yo shouldn't have been on the road period, so if she obeyed the law those 7 people would be alive today, but maybe another 7 wouldn't.   Regardless of the semi crash, I dont want 15 yo on the road without adult supervision as the law requires, they're endangering themselves and other motorists

What complete unadulterated bullshit.  Yep, it was all her fault.

Quoted: Quoted: When God wants them, he takes them.  Theyre serving a purpose somewhere. And such a kind loving way to bring them home........

God likes to mangle people for fun. Like a kid who gets a kick out of jamming an M80 into a frogs mouth.

Quoted: Quoted: the 15 yo shouldn't have been on the road period, so if she obeyed the law those 7 people would be alive today, but maybe another 7 wouldn't.   Regardless of the semi crash, I dont want 15 yo on the road without adult supervision as the law requires, they're endangering themselves and other motorists What complete unadulterated bullshit.  Yep, it was all her fault.

No no, it's her natural mother's fault. If she hadn't given birth to the girl, then the accident never would have happened. Time to do DNA testing and track her down.

Quoted: Quoted: the 15 yo shouldn't have been on the road period, so if she obeyed the law those 7 people would be alive today, but maybe another 7 wouldn't.   Regardless of the semi crash, I dont want 15 yo on the road without adult supervision as the law requires, they're endangering themselves and other motorists What complete unadulterated bullshit.  Yep, it was all her fault.

Never said it was all her fault, so complete unadulterated bullshit back to ya.  Fact is she had no business being on the road.  Someone with more experience would of left enough space between their car and the bus leaving an escape route and checking the rear view mirror and *possibly* might have enough experience to recognize danger and move out of the way before getting slammed.  Tell me why the 15 yo should be on the road without an adult driver.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: the 15 yo shouldn't have been on the road period, so if she obeyed the law those 7 people would be alive today, but maybe another 7 wouldn't.   Regardless of the semi crash, I dont want 15 yo on the road without adult supervision as the law requires, they're endangering themselves and other motorists What complete unadulterated bullshit.  Yep, it was all her fault. Never said it was all her fault, so complete unadulterated bullshit back to ya.  Fact is she had no business being on the road.  Someone with more experience would of left enough space between their car and the bus leaving an escape route and checking the rear view mirror and *possibly* might have enough experience to recognize danger and move out of the way before getting slammed.  Tell me why the 15 yo should be on the road without an adult driver.

How many people do you think consider leaving an escape route when they pull up behind a school bus? I bet it's darn few. Then to think to look back and maneuver out of the way? Besides, had the car gotten out of the way, instead of 5 dead kids there might well be 9 dead. The girl is in no way at fault. If there were no other vehicles around except her, and the truck hit her as opposed to simply not stopping but not hitting anything, I might consider her to be at least partially at fault. In this case, no way.

Quoted: In Florida, it is illegal for a 15-year-old to drive without an adult being in the car.

This statement although probably correct has NOTHING to do with the outcome of the accident. If it were a 42 year old behid the wheel = same # of deaths because of the NEGLIGENCE of the 18 wheeler driver.

That is so sad.  Even if the girl didn't cause the accident - what was the mother thinking?  Leaving a 15 year old with that much responsiblity.  Even the most responsible teenager is still just a kid.  I pity the poor woman on one hand because she lost her entire family but on the otherhand seeing her immediately jump to the defensive to defend her decision gives me little to go with.

The family is now suffering from an eighth death, according to CNN upon hearing the news of his dead grandchildren, their foster grandfather (?) had a heart attack and died earlier today.  Very sad time for that family, regardless of negligent or illegal behavior its still a tragedy.

In a lot of rural areas it is common for young teens to drive early. If you live in a large town or city, its hard to understand the rural lifestyle.  My dad was driving a pickup and farm equipment when he was 10yrs old.  Here in the desert, we see 13yr old kids drive a vehicle to the school bus stop, leave the vehicle there and pick it up in the afternoon.  My brother was rear-ended  and rolled by a speeding big rig and broke his back. Two years later he was rear-ended and killed by a pickup driver going over 100mph on the same highway. People drive way too fast nowadays. The truck driver should be hung by the balls.

Quoted: The family is now suffering from an eighth death, according to CNN upon hearing the news of his dead grandchildren, their foster grandfather (?) had a heart attack and died earlier today.  Very sad time for that family, regardless of negligent or illegal behavior its still a tragedy.

Obviously the 15 year old's fault , too.

An adult would have left more room?!? Jeeeeeez! How much room should an adult have left to prevent a semi from pushing it into the bus whith such force that it killed seven people? Personally, I'm thinking 200-300 feet. Which every responsible adult I know does when they're driving.

In 11 years of LE I've never worked ANY 3 car rear-enders when adults were driving.