Los Angeles Times
January 24, 2006

Warriors And Wusses

By Joel Stein

I don't support our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.

And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.

Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."

The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.

I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.

After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.

But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.

I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.

I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.

Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.

Stein is a troll journalist. Like shock-jocks, doing anything to get a rise out of people. Smug, and not particularly innovative or insightful.



Delicate features too...

Quoted: The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

Well, that article was stupid.

It was stupid enough that I'm not even angry about it.

And there it is.

Dear Mr. Stein,

LAX has multiple flights leaving the country every day.  Pick one.

Best Regards,

happycynic

Quoted: Quoted: The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

The troops ideas of morality are simply different from his. Just like a woman who shoots a rapists instead of just getting raped, her morals are probably different from his.

At least the guy is being honest, unlike the rest of his ilk.

Some people's genes should be bleached.  

Personally, if you've never been in the military, you have no right to comment on it because you have no idea what its really like.

Treasonous prick...ship his ass to any other country, see if he likes it better.

Maybe let some of the troops give him a little wall to wall counseling.....

Poor little guy must've gotten beat up a lot in high school.

I think the best response here would be to complete ignore it.  He wants the backlash and shock.  

Quoted: Los Angeles Times January 24, 2006 Warriors And Wusses By Joel Stein ...........................But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. .........................

Got THAT right, Joel.

Quoted: Personally, if you've never been in the military, you have no right to comment on it because you have no idea what its really like.

I guess we shouldn't comment on politics unless we've been elected to office either.

He equates clicking on a pop up to going to war????


Drama queen..............

Quoted: Quoted: Personally, if you've never been in the military, you have no right to comment on it because you have no idea what its really like. I guess we shouldn't comment on politics unless we've been elected to office either.

It is easier to comment on politics as you hear canidates/politicions opinions directly/indirectly from the media as thats their job, to get your support and vote, so that means everyone is involved. The military is entirly different, not everyone is involved, and not everyone experiances the things that our service members do. Your comparing apples and oranges.

ETA: Mispellings

He is a queer.

Max

Yet another "tool" of the Leftist media.

Notice how he uses all the Lib code words...Vietnam, refering to the Kosovo thing as a "good war", etc...


He sickens me and is not worthy of licking the poop from my shoe.  

Quoted: Stein is a troll journalist. Like shock-jocks, doing anything to get a rise out of people. Smug, and not particularly innovative or insightful. Delicate features too...

damn, he's so purty i wouldn't know whether to shake his hand or fuck his mouth!

The queer will support war and our American troops real fast when Iran nukes the shit out of Israel.

Quoted: Some people's genes should be bleached.   Personally, if you've never been in the military, you have no right to comment on it because you have no idea what its really like.

That is a very dangerous line of thought. I've never been in the military but I know it was wrong for the Japs to behead captured Americans in the pacific.

I understand the sentiment that "unless you've been there you can't really understand" but at the same time to think a civillian is in capable of making judgements about the actions of the military is foolish.

Quoted: The queer will support war and our American troops real fast when Iran nukes the shit out of Israel.

what makes you think that?

Quoted: At least the guy is being honest, unlike the rest of his ilk.

+1

I don't agree with anything he says, but at least he stands by his choice, unlike many, many others who "flip flop" around the issues in order to look good with everyone.

Quoted: Quoted: The queer will support war and our American troops real fast when Iran nukes the shit out of Israel. what makes you think that?

I think it's because his name is Joel Stein, probably Jewish.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The queer will support war and our American troops real fast when Iran nukes the shit out of Israel. what makes you think that? I think it's because his name is Joel Stein, probably Jewish.

I don't think the ultra left gives a shit about Israel even if they are Jewish.

Quoted: At least the guy is being honest, unlike the rest of his ilk.

Good point.  I respect him for that, unlike the idiots at DUh that claim to "support the troops" when they don't.z

Quoted: Quoted: At least the guy is being honest, unlike the rest of his ilk. +1 I don't agree with anything he says, but at least he stands by his choice, unlike many, many others who "flip flop" around the issues in order to look good with everyone.

you have a point

Didn't I see this guy doing one of those silly VH1 shows about celebrities??

The guy has the intellectual depth of a thimble.

Stick to reporting on Britney and Kevin's "marriage".

Leave the real issues to the grownups.

That article was so incredibly devoid of anything even resembling a lucid thought or argument, that I am not even pissed at the little poofter.

All I heard in my head whilst reading it was the sound of Charlie Brown's Teacher: "Whaah-Wah wah, Blah Blah Wahh waaa, Waa-Wah..."

SG

I'll save you the time of having to read the whole article.

Here is the gist: "BABY KILLERS!!!"

I personally want to thank the American Left for finally tipping their hand & revealing their true feelings concerning our troops. It can only benefit our side for the whole country to see where they really stand.  

So he finally confirms what we've known all along.  Move along.

Quoted: The troops ideas of morality are simply different from his. Just like a woman who shoots a rapists instead of just getting raped, her morals are probably different from his.

What do you know, anyway?

You're just another willing tool of American imperialism.

Mr. Stein is brave to speak out, because guys like you might come home and beat him up!

We all know how many reporters have gotten their asses kicked by returning Iraq war vets, don't we?

Quoted: The queer will support war and our American troops real fast when Iran nukes the shit out of Israel.

No, he won't

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The queer will support war and our American troops real fast when Iran nukes the shit out of Israel. what makes you think that? I think it's because his name is Joel Stein, probably Jewish.   I don't think the ultra left gives a shit about Israel even if they are Jewish.

I have a feeling that spielberg is jewish but not from his movie munich.

I wonder if you Google Stein and gang violence you will get an equaly damning diatribe on murderous gang hit men.

I doubt it.  He has nothing to fear from our military.  They are classy and he is not.  He is afraid of the gang members most likely.

Quoted: Some people's genes should be bleached.   Personally, if you've never been in the military, you have no right to comment on it because you have no idea what its really like.

I agree the author is a dick but your opinion is useless as well. Not being a lumber jack does not prevent one from discussing which forest to harvest.

Quoted: Some people's genes should be bleached.   Personally, if you've never been in the military, you have no right to comment on it because you have no idea what its really like.

 I've never been in the military but that does not stop me from standing up for, and supporting those, that are.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The queer will support war and our American troops real fast when Iran nukes the shit out of Israel. what makes you think that? I think it's because his name is Joel Stein, probably Jewish.   I don't think the ultra left gives a shit about Israel even if they are Jewish.

+1
The only time a "Jewish" <non practicing or Reform> libtard moonbat actually makes a big deal about being "Jewish" is when they bring it up & play the victim during Christian holidays or when anybody questions their BS...."you disagree with me so you're an anti-semite!".

Liberal pukes like this prick are part of the reason there's any "anti-semitism" IMHO.  
Ma & Pa Goldberg, the Orthodox grandparents who run the corner deli or Levi Rosenburg the dentist don't raise folks ire.  It's smarmy, condescending know-it-all liberal media/academia fvcktards like this prick or meddling asshole politicians like Fienstein/Schumer/etc.

At least he's honest.  And he's right about the wussiness of that line "I oppose the war but support the troops."  Stein's column reminded me of this excellent piece by Dennis Prager, who writes how dishonest it is to claim to oppose the war but support the troops.

The Left Should Admit: We Don't Support the Troops
By Dennis Prager
FrontPageMagazine.com | July 12, 2005

Liberals, Democrats and others on the Left frequently state that they "support the troops." For most of them, whether they realize it or not, this is not true. They feel they must say this because the majority of Americans would find any other position unacceptable. Indeed, for most liberals, the thought that they really do not support the troops is unacceptable even to them.

Lest this argument be dismissed as an attack on leftist Americans' patriotism, let it be clear that leftists' patriotism is not the issue here. Their honesty is.

In order to understand this, we need to first have a working definition of the term "support the troops." Presumably it means that one supports what the troops are doing and rooting for them to succeed. What else could "support the troops" mean? If you say, for example, that you support the Yankees or the Dodgers, we assume it means you want them to win.

But most of the Left does not want the troops to win in Iraq. The Left's message is this: "You troops may think you are winning; you may think you are doing good and moral things in Iraq; you may believe you are fighting the worst human beings of our age and protecting us against the scourge of Islamic terror. But we on the Left believe none of that. We believe this war is being fought for oil and for Halliburton and other corporations; we believe you are waging a war that is both illegal and immoral; we believe you have invaded a country for no good reason and have killed a hundred thousand Iraqis [the Left's generally mentioned number] for no good reason; but, hey, we sure do support you."

Honest people on the Left need to understand that the two positions are not reconcilable. A German citizen during World War II could not have argued: "The Nazi regime's army is engaged in an evil war of aggression and is slaughtering millions of innocent people, and I therefore completely oppose this war, but I sure do support the Nazi troops."

One example is the claim made by Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry and almost all other Democrats and liberals that the war in Iraq is "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time." How does one support troops that are fighting a wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time? A few leftist writers have been honest enough to say, "Nothing personal, guys, but I sure don't support you." But the vast majority of the Left and all Democratic politicians have not been honest on this matter.

A second example is the oft-repeated line, found on liberal bumper stickers, "War is not the answer." Aside from the idiocy of this claim -- war has solved slavery, ended the Holocaust, destroyed Japanese Fascism, preserved half the Korean peninsula from near-genocide, and saved Israel from extinction, among other noble achievements -- the claim offers no support to those who do engage in war.

How could one believe that "war is not the answer" and also claim to "support the troops," the very people waging what is "not the answer"? The answer is, by being dishonest.

A third example is the Left's opposition to military recruitment on most of the elite and many other college campuses. So deep is leftist disdain for troops that most on the Left regard the mere presence of military personnel on a university campus as a form of contamination. Yet, the Left claims to "support the troops."

Many on the Left express far more contempt than support for the troops.

A Democratic senator compares our interrogators to the Nazis and Communist torturers; the head of Amnesty International in America defends likening Guantanamo Bay to the Gulag; and liberals routinely speak of troops as coming from the lowest socio-economic rungs of society (maybe that's one reason they oppose recruiters on campuses, lest the best educated actually join the military). But, hey, the Left supports the troops.

An honest leftist would say: "Because I view this war as immoral, I cannot support our troops." What is not honest is their saying, "Support the troops -- bring them home." Supporting people who wish to fight entails supporting their fight; and if that fight is opposed, those waging it are also opposed.

Many on the Left angrily accuse the Right of disparaging their patriotism. That charge, too, is false. I have never heard a mainstream conservative impugn the patriotism of liberals. But as regards their attitude toward our troops, the patriotism of those on the Left is not the issue. The issue is their honesty.

Quoted: Stein is a troll journalist. Like shock-jocks, doing anything to get a rise out of people. Smug, and not particularly innovative or insightful. Delicate features too...

Looks like Mary Lou Retton. I bet she's got more brains and common sense, though.

[Hank Williams Jr.]I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dude's eye...[/Hank Williams Jr.]

Quoted: Quoted: Stein is a troll journalist. Like shock-jocks, doing anything to get a rise out of people. Smug, and not particularly innovative or insightful. www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/07-13-2005.Joel_Stein_bw.G3J1KVP9C.1.jpgwww.frontiernet.net/~rcowart/marylou_retton.jpg Delicate features too... Looks like Mary Lou Retton. I bet she's got more brains and common sense, though.

(and she would kick his ass!)

Quoted: I'll save you the time of having to read the whole article. Here is the gist: "BABY KILLERS!!!" I personally want to thank the American Left for finally tipping their hand & revealing their true feelings concerning our troops. It can only benefit our side for the whole country to see where they really stand.

Correct, but he is also calling the troops immoral and blaming them for that alleged immorality. While he is being honest about the left's position, I don't respect him for it.

Most obviously, we can't run military where the individual soldiers pick and choose their battles based on their personal sense of morality and later try them if their choice didn't align with popular opinion. So he's an idiot about military affairs and even points out his own wealthy soft/limp upbringing. Of course, it is this upbringing which makes him oblivious to the realities of the world.

As far as suggesting that the troops should do something about the war--I presume he would have them quit their jobs, which for them would lead to jail time as deserters--why doesn't he do something about it besides make money from his seat as a reporter? Why doesn't he quit his job and take some moral accountability for his inaction. Why not suggest the entire nation quit their jobs in opposition. No armchair warriors now, get off your ass and go fight the fight against the war, if that's what you think. Pussy. Not so easy is it. The soldiers might kick your ass and then you find out why you have your damn freedom of speech and suddenly your argument would be shown for the crap that it is.

But let's take it a step further. Civilians really are morally accountable for the nations they live in. If you live under a dictator, it is your responsibility to overthrow him. That is what the US did and that is why we have guns. We bombed civilians in WWII and rightfully so. They enabled the regimes that started the war. Anyone over 18 is morally responsible for their country and must sink or swim with it. Unfortunately, children get killed too. They are the only innocents. But, as luck would have it, PARENTS are responsible for raising their children and if the parents decide to live in a country that supports terrorist, they put their children at risk and the soldiers who accidentally kill them are absolved.

To conclude:
Soldiers are morally in the right.
Armchair pussies, who don't like it, are morally in the wrong.

Quoted: At least the guy is being honest, unlike the rest of his ilk.

True. He's showing the depths of vindictiveness towards a president he hates. No matter how far he generalized his statements of "government", its easy to see the one person he's singling out.

My real question is: Does he support the troop actions in Afganistan? If he doesn't support that invasion, I really question his commitment to this country.

ETA: I see alot of people equating negative views of the Iraq invasion to lack of troop support. The generalization here is astounding... It is completely possible for someone to not agree with the Iraq invasion, but to understand that the saftey of our soldiers depends on their moral. With that, there is a need to encourage their service and praise them for their duty-- thus giving support. There are reasonable left leaning people out there, not all of them are beyond a basic understanding of this issue.

Quoted: He equates clicking on a pop up to going to war???? Drama queen..............

Sure.....at the end of the night, you just hit the "Shutdown feature" and you go to sleep.  Then its automatically set on "Wake up" in the morning.

Quoted: Quoted: ETA: I see alot of people equating negative views of the Iraq invasion to lack of troop support. The generalization here is astounding... It is completely possible for someone to not agree with the Iraq invasion, but to understand that the saftey of our soldiers depends on their moral. With that, there is a need to encourage their service and praise them for their duty-- thus giving support. There are reasonable left leaning people out there, not all of them are beyond a basic understanding of this issue.

Right. You can oppose the war and support your troops if your alliance to the nation outweighs your opposition to the war. We have a political system where you can wage your opposition. If you are against the troops, you are hostile to the nation. That puts you in allegiance with the enemy.  

Quoted: At least the guy is being honest, unlike the rest of his ilk.

Yup...I gotta hand it to the boy...at least he tells the truth!

You just KNOW that when you hear the likes of Pelosi, Durbin, Kennedy and the rest of the socialist asshats in the Democrap party that they are lying throught their clenched teeth when the say they, "...suppor the troops".

My ass...

This guy is a dickhead.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ETA: I see alot of people equating negative views of the Iraq invasion to lack of troop support. The generalization here is astounding... It is completely possible for someone to not agree with the Iraq invasion, but to understand that the saftey of our soldiers depends on their moral. With that, there is a need to encourage their service and praise them for their duty-- thus giving support. There are reasonable left leaning people out there, not all of them are beyond a basic understanding of this issue. Right. You can oppose the war and support your troops if your alliance to the nation outweighs your opposition to the war. We have a political system where you can wage your opposition. If you are against the troops, you are hostile to the nation. That puts you in allegiance with the enemy.

Agreed. Non-support of the troops (engaged in a conflict legally begun) and love for the country cannot exist.

However, my support of the troops only goes as far as their obediance to the laws. An unconstitutional order would have to be disobeyed, otherwise that soldier isn't considered honored anymore. This is the only situation I can forsee a rational stance against a soldier/force.

By Joel Stein: The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that. I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.

He has no arguement here.  Can the same thing not be said about sending police officers to do "our dirty work" when we are being invaded at home or accosted on the street?  Or how about calling fire fighters to our homes when on fire risking their lives?  This moron is trying to ride the moral high ground and doing absolutely nothing to fix his own back yard (we are talking Los Angeles, CA no less).  So where is he stopping the senseless crime like rapes and murders in his own back yard?  He lays total responsibility on the troops but takes none himself for not preventing crime in the streets.  And he has the audacity to point fingers at those asking the troops to do their jobs?  What a hypocrite and a coward - but then after reading that trash and it's nothing unexpected.

If the Jewish far left doesn't support Israel who does?  I've had Jewish friends (more like acquaintances and golfing buddies) tell me their allegiance is to Israel before America.  

ooooh he is so informed and open minded, way to think for himself.