Hiya Guys:

I just read a 6 page thread regarding a new and imporved AWB in NY.  Many of the responses are somehting like "I cannot believe they'd do something like this even in NY"

Ya right.  They HAVE done this kind of unconstitutional stuff, they ARE doing this, and they WILL continue to do this.  Not only in NY but in other States, and at municipal, state and federal levels...  

Consider the following:

Freedom of Expression:  You have the right to speak out.  However, if you are a representative of a large group, attempt to run an advertisement supporting or critical of a political candidate immediately before a federal election.  McCain-Fiengold act limits your expression

Second Amendment:  Shall not be infringed.  I don't know about you, but we have reams of laws that effectively infringe on all KINDS of firearms.  Try to buy one in NYC or DC.  Try to buy a handgun in lot of states.  These have been on the books for nearly a century (Sullivan Law, NYC)

Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???  

Rights to trials, etc.   The fed's decide they want to hold you, indefinitely and illegally, without due process.  Its easy.  All tehy do is slap the terrorist label on you.  Bingo... You are stuck in Guantanamo indefinitely.  Two, three, fours years later you are still stuck in a prison.  No effective representation.  No trial .  Nothing...

Search and Siezure?  Maybe I'm stretching things here, but I hope you don;t own a home that on potentially prime commercial realestate.  Talks to Souter and the Supreme Court on this one.  If I can demonstrate my proposed new development will generate more tax dollars, you are losing your home.  Hmmmm.. Your 1920's vintage family cottage on the Lake is only worth $125,000.  My new Mc Mansion will cost $1.5 Mil...  Thats ten times the tax revenue.  Pack your bags...

freedom of religion?  Ya right.  I dare you to try to lead a prayer at a highschool football game.  Hell, even the pledge of allegance is verbotten....  It  contains the word "GOD"...


If the continued attempts to eliminate guns seem unbelievably 'unconstitutional', take a close look around you.  Politicians of BOTH stripes, blue and red, are busy churning out reams of new laws that continually violate our constitutional rights...  

As far as I'm concerned the government has been trampling on most of our constitutional rights for decades.  Most of it is justified by some crisis or need (The war on terror, common good, etc).  However, once this sort of behaviour is entrenched, its a small step from violating rights for common good to violating rights for personal/political gain.    Get used to it....  Its coming

They use incidents like 9-11 and others to grab even MORE power and destroy more rights under the guise of "Safety" and "Security".

Its sad, our rights have been slowly eroded and will continue to do so...

The US Constitution is a worthless relic.

Quoted: The US Constitution is a worthless relic.

+1, but not for the reason you think

I personally support a new constitutional convention and start from scratch, so maybe we might have around 100 years of constitutional laws(go Abraham Lincoln...)

I wonder when the public at large will suddenly realize we are fucked. At some point (far too late) there will be a great illumination.

Quoted: Quoted: The US Constitution is a worthless relic. +1, but not for the reason you think I personally support a new constitutional convention and start from scratch, so maybe we might have around 100 years of constitutional laws(go Abraham Lincoln...)

No we just erase all laws except the constitution and amendments.

All new federal laws will sunset every 10 years (or 8 or 12  something like that) and all new laws must be topic specific.  No tacking on a spending bill here or there.  The constitution will be interpreted strictly.  If you don't like something, get an amendment.  It is NOT a living document.  It is a immortal document and doesn't need to adapt for shit.

This will:
1. Force Congress to constaintly vote to keep laws on the books, if they Fuck up, there will be no federal laws.  Less time to think of new laws to come up with.
2. Help combat pork given specific topic requirement.
3. Force continuing re-examination of exsisting laws every time the renewal comes up

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The US Constitution is a worthless relic. +1, but not for the reason you think I personally support a new constitutional convention and start from scratch, so maybe we might have around 100 years of constitutional laws(go Abraham Lincoln...) No we just erase all laws except the constitution and amendments. All new federal laws will sunset every 10 years (or 8 or 12  something like that) and all new laws must be topic specific.  No tacking on a spending bill here or there.  The constitution will be interpreted strictly.  If you don't like something, get an amendment.  It is NOT a living document.  It is a immortal document and doesn't need to adapt for shit.

A quick question for those well-versed in the feelings of the founders.... weren't ALL Federal laws supposed to contain sunset provisions until they had been proven to work?

This will: 1. Force Congress to constaintly vote to keep laws on the books, if they Fuck up, there will be no federal laws.  Less time to think of new laws to come up with. 2. Help combat pork given specific topic requirement. 3. Force continuing re-examination of exsisting laws every time the renewal comes up

Unfortunately, I think congress would just become lazy and just give a rubber stamp to everytthing that passes their eyes.

Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???

You had me until there.

You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps.

Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps.

forget the wiretaps, how about search engine subpeonas?

Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps.

Get a fucking warrant!  Its not so hard.  They have current provisions to do taps for a certain period (48 or 72 hours) and then take that evidence before a judge and he will give a warrant to continue the op or tell them to quit!

I dislike ANYONE that can willie nillie invade anyones privacy in the same of security.

It so pains me at night to side with a lot of fucktard liberals on this issue....seriously I think I have a cold because of it.

Quoted: A quick question for those well-versed in the feelings of the founders.... weren't ALL Federal laws supposed to contain sunset provisions until they had been proven to work? Unfortunately, I think congress would just become lazy and just give a rubber stamp to everytthing that passes their eyes.

I've heard that before...don't know where, or if it was true, but FF wanted sunsetting laws.

While this maybe true to an extent, the big issues wouldn't get this treatment.  Congress changes hands often enough and the new guys in control can let laws lax or not depending on the mood of the country.  In the day and age of everyone knowing everything about the congress, everyone would have their positions on issues doumented for the voters to see b/c every issue, even the little stuff will come before them for a revote at some point.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps. Get a fucking warrant!  Its not so hard.  They have current provisions to do taps for a certain period (48 or 72 hours) and then take that evidence before a judge and he will give a warrant to continue the op or tell them to quit! I dislike ANYONE that can willie nillie invade anyones privacy in the same of security. It so pains me at night to side with a lot of fucktard liberals on this issue....seriously I think I have a cold because of it.

The only reason the liberals are against it is cause Bush is doing it. If Clinton did it they would argue that is was necessary. I am sure of this.

Then again....if Clinton did it, lots of people that support Bush's actions would be outraged.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps. Get a fucking warrant!  Its not so hard.  They have current provisions to do taps for a certain period (48 or 72 hours) and then take that evidence before a judge and he will give a warrant to continue the op or tell them to quit! I dislike ANYONE that can willie nillie invade anyones privacy in the same of security. It so pains me at night to side with a lot of fucktard liberals on this issue....seriously I think I have a cold because of it.

There you have it.  You know nothing about it.

Random citizens are not being spied on.  The ENEMY is being spied on.  There's a big difference there.  The difference is that the first group are citizens, and the second group are enemies.  It's not really difficult.

You may not have known this, but spying on enemies has been going on since the beginning of Man, and it's been very sucessful.

Oh, and many other presidents have used this.  Therefore your "slippery slope" is complete bunk.  If it were slippery, we would have hit the bottom by now.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps. Get a fucking warrant!  Its not so hard.  They have current provisions to do taps for a certain period (48 or 72 hours) and then take that evidence before a judge and he will give a warrant to continue the op or tell them to quit! I dislike ANYONE that can willie nillie invade anyones privacy in the same of security. It so pains me at night to side with a lot of fucktard liberals on this issue....seriously I think I have a cold because of it. The only reason the liberals are against it is cause Bush is doing it. If Clinton did it they would argue that is was necessary. I am sure of this. Then again....if Clinton did it, lots of people that support Bush's actions would be outraged.

My position is that I don't want anyone too powerful, incl the gov, and I just don't trust them.  I trust Bush, but it sets a dangerous precedent....the slipper slope and all...for when someone not friendly to say, gun owners, takes office.  We need to track potential domestic terrorists...this just makes it that much easier.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps. Get a fucking warrant!  Its not so hard.  They have current provisions to do taps for a certain period (48 or 72 hours) and then take that evidence before a judge and he will give a warrant to continue the op or tell them to quit! I dislike ANYONE that can willie nillie invade anyones privacy in the same of security. It so pains me at night to side with a lot of fucktard liberals on this issue....seriously I think I have a cold because of it. The only reason the liberals are against it is cause Bush is doing it. If Clinton did it they would argue that is was necessary. I am sure of this. Then again....if Clinton did it, lots of people that support Bush's actions would be outraged. My position is that I don't want anyone too powerful, incl the gov, and I just don't trust them.  I trust Bush, but it sets a dangerous precedent....the slipper slope and all...for when someone not friendly to say, gun owners, takes office.  We need to track potential domestic terrorists...this just makes it that much easier.

Agreed. After Oklahoma City Clinton proposed a bunch of anti-terrorism (read domestic) laws and the right wing flipped out. There MAY be no harm in this stuff now, but if Hillary or Chuckie were to get elected in the near future things could seriously suck.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps. Get a fucking warrant!  Its not so hard.  They have current provisions to do taps for a certain period (48 or 72 hours) and then take that evidence before a judge and he will give a warrant to continue the op or tell them to quit! I dislike ANYONE that can willie nillie invade anyones privacy in the same of security. It so pains me at night to side with a lot of fucktard liberals on this issue....seriously I think I have a cold because of it. There you have it.  You know nothing about it. Random citizens are not being spied on.  The ENEMY is being spied on.  There's a big difference there.  The difference is that the first group are citizens, and the second group are enemies.  It's not really difficult. You may not have known this, but spying on enemies has been going on since the beginning of Man, and it's been very sucessful.

Sorry when one person on the line is a US Citizen, they need a warrant.  Period.  This "wartime" crap is getting old.  Citizens, even those suspected of links to terrorists, still must have their rights respected.

Its going to be all to easy for gun grabbers to do this to us in ten years in the name of "security" from we gun-owning "domestic terrorists".  Oh we are not domestic terrorists you say??  Well they can just say, we suspected you were which is why we violated your rights.

If both people are foreign nationals, fine no problem.  If at least one is a US citizen, the constitution applies.  And in the end the constitution is not that much of a hinderence, as I outlined before with retroactive warrants!

Edit: Yea we gun owners are not random people either...they can use the same line when that time comes as well.

Edit again for grammar and clarity.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The US Constitution is a worthless relic. +1, but not for the reason you think I personally support a new constitutional convention and start from scratch, so maybe we might have around 100 years of constitutional laws(go Abraham Lincoln...) No we just erase all laws except the constitution and amendments. All new federal laws will sunset every 10 years (or 8 or 12  something like that) and all new laws must be topic specific.  No tacking on a spending bill here or there.  The constitution will be interpreted strictly.  If you don't like something, get an amendment.  It is NOT a living document.  It is a immortal document and doesn't need to adapt for shit. This will: 1. Force Congress to constaintly vote to keep laws on the books, if they Fuck up, there will be no federal laws.  Less time to think of new laws to come up with. 2. Help combat pork given specific topic requirement. 3. Force continuing re-examination of exsisting laws every time the renewal comes up

I agree with most of this. I would add the following: Any bill that is written will contain the specific language in the Constitution/Bill Of Rights that allows Congress to pass such a law.

Should cut down on the BS that congress tries to get gets away with.

Quoted: I agree with most of this. I would add the following: Any bill that is written will contain the specific language in the Constitution/Bill Of Rights that allows Congress to pass such a law. Should cut down on the BS that congress tries to get gets away with.

GREAT idea!

Quoted: Quoted: I agree with most of this. I would add the following: Any bill that is written will contain the specific language in the Constitution/Bill Of Rights that allows Congress to pass such a law. Should cut down on the BS that congress tries to get gets away with. GREAT idea!

Yeah it is.

Do you think the government will buy it?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I agree with most of this. I would add the following: Any bill that is written will contain the specific language in the Constitution/Bill Of Rights that allows Congress to pass such a law. Should cut down on the BS that congress tries to get gets away with. GREAT idea! Yeah it is. Do you think the government will buy it?

Currently no...maybe we need a ARFCOM political party....

That would really add points since we are already an "extremnists group"

Quoted: Quoted: Right to freedom from unreasonable search or seizure:  You following any of the current arguments regarding wire taps???   You had me until there. You clearly know nothing about the wiretaps.

4th amendment is dead.

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=430587&page=1

Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/pcsutton/justy.jpg

Hrmm. I wonder who called the Constitution a "goddamned peice of paper"...

Oh, yeah...now I remember.