January 09, 2006

Reservists who refused to mobilize discharged

By Robert Burns
Associated Press

WASHINGTON — The Army on Monday began moves to expel dozens of reserve soldiers who failed to report for duty months after being mobilized for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, in effect serving notice to hundreds of others that they could face penalties for ignoring or refusing orders to return to active duty.

The proceedings mark a turning point in the Army’s struggle to contact, train and deploy thousands of Individual Ready Reserve soldiers, nearly half of whom have requested a delay in returning, asked to be exempt or simply ignored their orders.

The soldiers in this category of reserve status, who have served previously on active duty but not completed their eight-year service obligation, are different than those in the National Guard or Reserve, and they are rarely mobilized.

The Army began mobilizing them in the summer of 2004, reflecting the enormous strain it felt in providing enough soldiers for Iraq at a time when it was becoming apparent that no early withdrawal was likely.

So far, mobilization orders have been issued for more than 5,700 IRR soldiers since mid-2004.

The Army announced that about 80 soldiers will face review panels, known as separation boards, although the number may grow. If it is determined that they intentionally failed to obey a mobilization order, they would face one of three levels of discharge from the service: honorable, general or other-than-honorable.

They do not face criminal charges.

WHAT THE FUCK!!
What a fucking slap in the face and a kick in the nuts to all the peopl who DID answer the call.

“Because of these soldiers’ disregard of their duty, the Army will initiate separation proceedings on all IRR soldiers who fail to obey mobilization orders,” the Army said in a statement explaining its decision to act.

So basically they are giving them what they want. I was recalled, got hurt trying to get back in shape before I went and ended up being exempted, then basically had the people at HRC St. Louis think I was nuts for calling and asking if I could still go Out of about 50 people that were scheduled to show up when I originally was only, 15 actually showed and I think one went awol the first night. (stingerjg can confirm this since he was recalled at the same time)

Quoted: They could get dishonorable discharges, which ain't nothing to sneeze at. Putting them up against a wall with cigarettes and a blindfold would be a bit of a PR mess that the military probably does not want.

They at the very least should be forced to payback the monies they under false pretenses have leached from the public AND pay for the cost to recruit and train their replacement.

this is just like the thread about the bonus army marchers. you guys dont have the whole story. im sure it happens they way youre assuming it happened but i have 2 close personal friends that got IRR orders with report dates YEARS after the end of their obligation. 1 girl i know did 4 years active, 6 years guard and is now a single mom in law school. should she leave school and leave her kid and drive to fort jackson just to get the run-around for at least a week and THEN have to fight for reumbursement of her travel expenses. screw that. she ran the notice through the shredder and so would i.

i have a cousin with 6years active 6 years guard. 2 tours korea, 1 tour johnston island (thats 3 hardship tours) PLUS he did 6months in AFG and decided not to re-up so he could go back to school. well he got an IRR letter and doesnt owe a damn thing.

when you enlist its a contract. but very often the Govt thinks they can change the rules in the middle of the game people who do their 8 year commitment then get out, they change their lives, have kids, go to school and then they get IRR letters. thats bullshit

im willing to bet they aren't taking punative measure against the troops in question because they know theyre on shady legal ground. trust me, if the soldiers were in the wrong they would get the "green wienie" in a heartbeat. im suprised at how easily taken in some of you are by an AP story that cleverly makes it appear as though soldiers are deserting in droves. almost makes it sound like the troops dont support the war, or that morale is low. kind of like how the brady bunch counts legit defense shootings in their "gun violence" statistics.

use your heads guys.

I'm hoping we dont' have to pay for their GI bill fund when they go to college.

asshats

They may not legally be prosecutable, interesting reservists can avoid prosecution for failure to mobilize by saying they were never notified.  There is a whole protocol that is required on a activation just for that reason.  

The only thing you can really do is give them a bad discharge to eliminate their ability to get Gov loans and jobs.  

STLRN, Marine wise, couldnt the penalties be pretty steep for SMCR reservists as opposed to IRR guys. i doubt IRR guys would even get the "big chicken dinner" but i was under the impression that if the reservist is SMCR( or whatever the other branches call their obligated reserve time) that they would activate the offending reservist and then take action against them as if they were active duty. is that correct?

IM sent

"The Army announced that about 80 soldiers will face review panels, known as separation boards, although the number may grow. If it is determined that they intentionally failed to obey a mobilization order, they would face one of three levels of discharge from the service: honorable, general or other-than-honorable.
"

What a load of crap. At a minimum it should be BCD's and Dishonarable. What part of EAOS is not explained to those who get out with less than 8 years active duty? So I guess the new defense for missing movement will be...'cause I didn't want to, you can't make me and they got away with it.

To get a BCD you have to go to Special Courts Martial, and if the person being charged is not present it complicates things a bit.  

Quoted: this is just like the thread about the bonus army marchers. you guys dont have the whole story. im sure it happens they way youre assuming it happened but i have 2 close personal friends that got IRR orders with report dates YEARS after the end of their obligation. 1 girl i know did 4 years active, 6 years guard and is now a single mom in law school. should she leave school and leave her kid and drive to fort jackson just to get the run-around for at least a week and THEN have to fight for reumbursement of her travel expenses. screw that. she ran the notice through the shredder and so would i. i have a cousin with 6years active 6 years guard. 2 tours korea, 1 tour johnston island (thats 3 hardship tours) PLUS he did 6months in AFG and decided not to re-up so he could go back to school. well he got an IRR letter and doesnt owe a damn thing. when you enlist its a contract. but very often the Govt thinks they can change the rules in the middle of the game people who do their 8 year commitment then get out, they change their lives, have kids, go to school and then they get IRR letters. thats bullshit im willing to bet they aren't taking punative measure against the troops in question because they know theyre on shady legal ground. trust me, if the soldiers were in the wrong they would get the "green wienie" in a heartbeat. im suprised at how easily taken in some of you are by an AP story that cleverly makes it appear as though soldiers are deserting in droves. almost makes it sound like the troops dont support the war, or that morale is low. kind of like how the brady bunch counts legit defense shootings in their "gun violence" statistics. use your heads guys.

+1 Someone else gets it

I say that these folks should be made to pay back every red, white and blue cent that the government spent to train, clothe, feed and house these people, no matter how long they were in the service.

And if they can't pay, tough. Garner their paychecks for the rest of their lives until the debt is paid.






eta-spelling

Is there any way we can get their names and add a MOTHERFUCKING COWARD FORUM?

So that they may be shunned, criticised, and threatened with violence daily if we should run afoul of their filth someday.

I was in the Reserves for 3 1/2 years during school, followed by 9 1/2 years active duty, with 2 years of IRR after that.  Then, changes in my life made the prospect of being mobilized too great a risk to my family and finances.  So, I resigned my commission.  That is what you do if your life changes.  You DON"T keep taking the $$ and REFUSING to deploy when your number comes up.

double tap

oops

Don't know if you gentlemen are aware of this ...  Officers have the choice of going .  The gov are only going after enlisted personel who refuse.  I shit you not.

Yep....this is all true...and complete bullshit......I just got back 2 weeks ago from my tour in sunny Baghdad.....we lost 2 guys in the unit I was assigned (I was an IA)....BOTH of them were IRR's that sacked up and decided to fulfill their obligations like men....A MAJ in my unit, also an IRR call up and a successful engineer in his civilian career, was sending out a numnber of letters to senators to explain how pissed off he was at the situation and to explain how unjust it was in light of what had happened in our unit.....Something has to be done about this....you sign the contract, you serve...pretty damn simple....there's a lot of guys over there not too happy about this policy...

The funny thing is the Marine Corps has tons of SMCR reservist, in unit that were activated, that weren't activated.  The simple reason was they were too close to their end of obligated drilling date.  IRR time didn't count, since there is not a stop loss in effect, so you have drilling reservist within a few months of the date they didn't have to drill anymore that had a Cat code "E" run on them and they weren't activated with their units in December of 05.  

Quoted: They could get dishonorable discharges, which ain't nothing to sneeze at. Putting them up against a wall with cigarettes and a blindfold would be a bit of a PR mess that the military probably does not want.

A DD permanently removes the RKBA forever.

Quoted: Quoted: this is just like the thread about the bonus army marchers. you guys dont have the whole story. im sure it happens they way youre assuming it happened but i have 2 close personal friends that got IRR orders with report dates YEARS after the end of their obligation. 1 girl i know did 4 years active, 6 years guard and is now a single mom in law school. should she leave school and leave her kid and drive to fort jackson just to get the run-around for at least a week and THEN have to fight for reumbursement of her travel expenses. screw that. she ran the notice through the shredder and so would i. i have a cousin with 6years active 6 years guard. 2 tours korea, 1 tour johnston island (thats 3 hardship tours) PLUS he did 6months in AFG and decided not to re-up so he could go back to school. well he got an IRR letter and doesnt owe a damn thing. when you enlist its a contract. but very often the Govt thinks they can change the rules in the middle of the game people who do their 8 year commitment then get out, they change their lives, have kids, go to school and then they get IRR letters. thats bullshit im willing to bet they aren't taking punative measure against the troops in question because they know theyre on shady legal ground. trust me, if the soldiers were in the wrong they would get the "green wienie" in a heartbeat. im suprised at how easily taken in some of you are by an AP story that cleverly makes it appear as though soldiers are deserting in droves. almost makes it sound like the troops dont support the war, or that morale is low. kind of like how the brady bunch counts legit defense shootings in their "gun violence" statistics. use your heads guys. +1 Someone else gets it

Neither of you guys "gets it".
There is only ONE way to handle this and that's by being a person of honor and reporting as ordered even if it's a mistake.
If there was a problem you don't handle it by NOT SHOWING UP or not getting in touch with the people who want you to report.

I am sure that there were fuck-ups as there are in any military evolution.
But you don't handle the fuck-up by ignoring the recall.

The people who have legitimate excuses and who ignored the recall are now going to be recalled anyways and now the .gov has to spend more time and money unfucking their situation.

Bet if they had just answered the recall they could have gotten the fuck-up straightened out.

Fuck'em where it counts the most, in the wallet and in their rights as Americans.

Failure to go is a UCMJ offense.

Give them all DDs.

I found an AWOL Marine reservist one night who did not show up when the rest of his unit deployed to Iraq.  There was a no bail warrant for his arrests issued by the DOD.  I arrested him for the warrant and found there was not a jail anywhere in southern California that would take him into custody on it.

I took him to camp Pendelton (long ass drive!) and handed him over to the MP's.  they called me a couple hours later and wanted me to come back and get him and "take him to his unit."  Um, Lcpl dumfuck, his unit is in iraq.  Throw his ass in the brig.

They called me back a couple hours later and said the briq wouldnt take him.  Okay fine...i tried, let him go.

Quoted: I wonder why everyone refused the guy you had.

Must've been an illegal alien!

Quoted: Quoted: I found an AWOL Marine reservist one night who did not show up when the rest of his unit deployed to Iraq.  There was a no bail warrant for his arrests issued by the DOD.  I arrested him for the warrant and found there was not a jail anywhere in southern California that would take him into custody on it. I took him to camp Pendelton (long ass drive!) and handed him over to the MP's.  they called me a couple hours later and wanted me to come back and get him and "take him to his unit."  Um, Lcpl dumfuck, his unit is in iraq.  Throw his ass in the brig. They called me back a couple hours later and said the briq wouldnt take him.  Okay fine...i tried, let him go. That's pretty wild. I got detailed a few times to retreive AWOL troops.  Before I went to the soldier's HOR, I contacted the local LE.  I told them who I was, what I was planning on doing, and where & when I was going to do it.   I was always met at the address by a patrol unit.  If I had encountered any resistance, they would've taken him into custody.  Fortunately, everyone came along peacefully. I wonder why everyone refused the guy you had.

There are some screw-ups that even the Marines don't want back.

hey, i agree that obligated reservists should have their feet held to the fire but 90% of no shows are from IRR and half of those are people who arent even obligated at all. some of you guys are a little quick to fetch the rope and start looking for a tree. to me this entire thread is an example of how effective propaganda can be.

im getting out this year after a combined 10yrs including 3 combat tours and i dont owe shit but i garantee you that if something goes down with iran etc i will get an IRR letter. and i intend to check the box that says "suck mah balls" and send it back. the worst part is i might get that letter in 20yrs but when it happens ill post a thread so you can all tell me what a coward i am for not buckling to the govt's quasi legal extortion scheme.

Quoted: Is there any way we can get their names and add a MOTHERFUCKING COWARD FORUM? So that they may be shunned, criticised, and threatened with violence daily if we should run afoul of their filth someday.

Yeah we'll post their names right beside the people who never served a day in their life. Oh thats right, just becuase you your country is at war and you won't sign up you're not a coward. Forgot.

They are in the damn IRR, give it a break. Most probably never recieved their notices. Mail only gets forwarded for so long.

There is a big difference between them, and a guy who is in a unit, get orders and goes AWOL.

Quoted: hey, i agree that obligated reservists should have their feet held to the fire but 90% of no shows are from IRR and half of those are people who arent even obligated at all. some of you guys are a little quick to fetch the rope and start looking for a tree. to me this entire thread is an example of how effective propaganda can be. im getting out this year after a combined 10yrs including 3 combat tours and i dont owe shit but i garantee you that if something goes down with iran etc i will get an IRR letter. and i intend to check the box that says "suck mah balls" and send it back. the worst part is i might get that letter in 20yrs but when it happens ill post a thread so you can all tell me what a coward i am for not buckling to the govt's quasi legal extortion scheme.

I agree with you.  I'm active duty, and I don't buy into this sensationalist report.  I'm sure some of these guys still owe time in the IRR, and should be accountable for it, but I'd bet some of these numbers owe no time whatsoever.  It looks like a lot of folks posting here don't quite understand what the IRR is all about; instead they are picturing Guardsmen not showing up for the flight over to Iraq with the rest of their unit, etc.

Hmmm.

Thats .014% of IRR soldiers recalled.

I can believe the Army screwed up in one way or another well more than that percentage, and I can belive that many may be shitbags.

Either way, not bad odds. Give them a General Other Than Honorable and let them deal with the consequences the rest of thier lives. We are probably better off they didn't deploy.

BTW, I have several recalled IRR soldiers with me, and one recalled 4 months after retirement, and all are serving with honor and pride.

yeah i think a lot of guys on this thread dont understand IRR. when you trasfer to the "1st Civ Div" you get a job, settle down, gain 20lbs, maybe go back to school or have a baby but most importantly you change your mindset. a man goes through a door and sometimes he cant go back. you learn not to look at your new civilian co-worker and say "you best unfuck yourself hardcharger" and if you get called back you cant look at the CO and say "ya know jerry, thats a bad idea"

-reservists in IRR dont go to drill anymore
-they dont collect any pay
-all they get is a postcard quarterly from DoD
-IRR call-ups are almost never to report to your local reserve center. if youre lucky the want you to report to somewhere on the same side of the Mississippi river at your own expense.
-GI bill is participatory. you pay into it on the promise that you can draw out of it in the future. last i checked it pays somewhere around 40:1 to loan the govt your pre-tax dollars for 4yrs.

 
   IRR time should take retirement points into account, that way by volunteering for active duty tours, ADSW, or augmentation you could in effect, buy your way out of IRR with points. my brother has 9years in the MD air guard, now get this... at his 6yr mark he had done so much augmentation and ADSW that at the end of 6 years he had almost enough points for a 20yr reserve retirement and they STILL made him do a year of IRR while he was finishing school. he just went back as an officer so he can resign at anytime but damn, he could have been seriously shafted if there had been an IRR call up and this is a guy who spent years volunteering for shit jobs no one else wanted.

we're talking IRR here, these are guys who did a full hitch honorably. which is WAY more than most of the members of this board have done. this board is full of guys who buy all the latest kit and pile it up in the corner all shiny and new to take a picture of it but have never actually done shit...and never will.

i wonder how all these tough talkers would fare if we had a  "post your DD214 thread"

Unsat.  They must of joined for the college money........

Max

Quoted: If it is determined that they intentionally failed to obey a mobilization order, they would face one of three levels of discharge from the service: honorable, general or other-than-honorable.

Where is the dishonorable discharge?!  That is the least they should get if they are not to be charged under UCMJ!  Desertion is more in order.  Just another cave in to our weenie liberals.  Give me my college money but I don't want to earn it.  "I suddenly disagree...cry, cry..."  BS

Quoted: yeah i think a lot of guys on this thread dont understand IRR. when you trasfer to the "1st Civ Div" you get a job, settle down, gain 20lbs, maybe go back to school or have a baby but most importantly you change your mindset. a man goes through a door and sometimes he cant go back. you learn not to look at your new civilian co-worker and say "you best unfuck yourself hardcharger" and if you get called back you cant look at the CO and say "ya know jerry, thats a bad idea" -reservists in IRR dont go to drill anymore -they dont collect any pay -all they get is a postcard quarterly from DoD -IRR call-ups are almost never to report to your local reserve center. if youre lucky the want you to report to somewhere on the same side of the Mississippi river at your own expense. -GI bill is participatory. you pay into it on the promise that you can draw out of it in the future. last i checked it pays somewhere around 40:1 to loan the govt your pre-tax dollars for 4yrs.      IRR time should take retirement points into account, that way by volunteering for active duty tours, ADSW, or augmentation you could in effect, buy your way out of IRR with points. my brother has 9years in the MD air guard, now get this... at his 6yr mark he had done so much augmentation and ADSW that at the end of 6 years he had almost enough points for a 20yr reserve retirement and they STILL made him do a year of IRR while he was finishing school. he just went back as an officer so he can resign at anytime but damn, he could have been seriously shafted if there had been an IRR call up and this is a guy who spent years volunteering for shit jobs no one else wanted. we're talking IRR here, these are guys who did a full hitch honorably. which is WAY more than most of the members of this board have done. this board is full of guys who buy all the latest kit and pile it up in the corner all shiny and new to take a picture of it but have never actually done shit...and never will. i wonder how all these tough talkers would fare if we had a  "post your DD214 thread"

+1

You do get retirement point for being in the IRR, it is something like 15 so not enough for a Sat year but those points count.  

man, some of you guys act like an oth is just a slap on the wrist, it's not! a lot of civ employers (for other than a menial job) will take one look at that oth and will tell you "thanks for dropping by. don't call us, we'll call you!" even though an oth is an admin sep, it's impact is just as onerous as a bcd or dd!

i'm up in the air about this situation. when you eas you're told to maintain ht/wt standards, maintain your uniform, and keep your address/ph no up to date. no one leaves the service ESPECIALLY nowadays thinking there's no way they'll be recalled.

having said that, i don't think the .mil is fair in the way they recall folks. it's true about having to travel to distant places at your own expense. it's true that 99% of the time you can't get out of a recall with just a phone call or a letter, you have to report, make you case, then you usually spend several weeks painting rocks until they come back with a yea or nay. that's not fair. but then again, i'm not sure the .mil has ever been fair. getting reimbursed is no big deal, it's straight paperwork that takes a little time. hopefully you're not living hand-to-mouth...

oh yeah, almost no one enlists for the college anymore, not since 9/11. boys and girls enlist for payback and to do something for their country.

Quoted: Quoted: yeah i think a lot of guys on this thread dont understand IRR. when you trasfer to the "1st Civ Div" you get a job, settle down, gain 20lbs, maybe go back to school or have a baby but most importantly you change your mindset. a man goes through a door and sometimes he cant go back. you learn not to look at your new civilian co-worker and say "you best unfuck yourself hardcharger" and if you get called back you cant look at the CO and say "ya know jerry, thats a bad idea" -reservists in IRR dont go to drill anymore -they dont collect any pay -all they get is a postcard quarterly from DoD -IRR call-ups are almost never to report to your local reserve center. if youre lucky the want you to report to somewhere on the same side of the Mississippi river at your own expense. -GI bill is participatory. you pay into it on the promise that you can draw out of it in the future. last i checked it pays somewhere around 40:1 to loan the govt your pre-tax dollars for 4yrs.      IRR time should take retirement points into account, that way by volunteering for active duty tours, ADSW, or augmentation you could in effect, buy your way out of IRR with points. my brother has 9years in the MD air guard, now get this... at his 6yr mark he had done so much augmentation and ADSW that at the end of 6 years he had almost enough points for a 20yr reserve retirement and they STILL made him do a year of IRR while he was finishing school. he just went back as an officer so he can resign at anytime but damn, he could have been seriously shafted if there had been an IRR call up and this is a guy who spent years volunteering for shit jobs no one else wanted. we're talking IRR here, these are guys who did a full hitch honorably. which is WAY more than most of the members of this board have done. this board is full of guys who buy all the latest kit and pile it up in the corner all shiny and new to take a picture of it but have never actually done shit...and never will. i wonder how all these tough talkers would fare if we had a  "post your DD214 thread" +1

+1

I dont think we are getting the whole story here....

The Army recalled a freind of mine at work who had been out of the Army reserves for many years. He was 45, fat, totally out of shape and slept on a ventilator. He went back and forth with the Army for months.  I even had to write a letter stating how valuable he was to our unit ( he was a GS employee).

I wonder what the Army was going to do with him

I have heard of similar scenarios many, many times...for people who fufilled their IRR commitment time.


When I seperate, I will have 9 years active in. I will have done my service and fulfilled my IRR commitment. I have served my country more than most U.S. citizens ever have. I have EARNED my GI bill.  Their is no way in hell that I want to be recalled.

I want to move on with my life.  I want to be a civilian, buy a house, and enjoy my wife and kid.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: yeah i think a lot of guys on this thread dont understand IRR. when you trasfer to the "1st Civ Div" you get a job, settle down, gain 20lbs, maybe go back to school or have a baby but most importantly you change your mindset. a man goes through a door and sometimes he cant go back. you learn not to look at your new civilian co-worker and say "you best unfuck yourself hardcharger" and if you get called back you cant look at the CO and say "ya know jerry, thats a bad idea" -reservists in IRR dont go to drill anymore -they dont collect any pay -all they get is a postcard quarterly from DoD -IRR call-ups are almost never to report to your local reserve center. if youre lucky the want you to report to somewhere on the same side of the Mississippi river at your own expense. -GI bill is participatory. you pay into it on the promise that you can draw out of it in the future. last i checked it pays somewhere around 40:1 to loan the govt your pre-tax dollars for 4yrs.      IRR time should take retirement points into account, that way by volunteering for active duty tours, ADSW, or augmentation you could in effect, buy your way out of IRR with points. my brother has 9years in the MD air guard, now get this... at his 6yr mark he had done so much augmentation and ADSW that at the end of 6 years he had almost enough points for a 20yr reserve retirement and they STILL made him do a year of IRR while he was finishing school. he just went back as an officer so he can resign at anytime but damn, he could have been seriously shafted if there had been an IRR call up and this is a guy who spent years volunteering for shit jobs no one else wanted. we're talking IRR here, these are guys who did a full hitch honorably. which is WAY more than most of the members of this board have done. this board is full of guys who buy all the latest kit and pile it up in the corner all shiny and new to take a picture of it but have never actually done shit...and never will. i wonder how all these tough talkers would fare if we had a  "post your DD214 thread" +1 +1 I dont think we are getting the whole story here.... The Army recalled a freind of mine at work who had been out of the Army reserves for many years. He was 45, fat, totally out of shape and slept on a ventilator. He went back and forth with the Army for months.  I even had to write a letter stating how valuable he was to our unit ( he was a GS employee). I wonder what the Army was going to do with him I have heard of similar scenarios many, many times...for people who fufilled their IRR commitment time. When I seperate, I will have 9 years active in. I will have done my service and fulfilled my IRR commitment. I have served my country more than most U.S. citizens ever have. I have EARNED my GI bill.  Their is no way in hell that I want to be recalled. I want to move on with my life.  I want to be a civilian, buy a house, and enjoy my wife and kid.

Quoted: Yep....this is all true...and complete bullshit......I just got back 2 weeks ago from my tour in sunny Baghdad.....we lost 2 guys in the unit I was assigned (I was an IA)....BOTH of them were IRR's that sacked up and decided to fulfill their obligations like men....A MAJ in my unit, also an IRR call up and a successful engineer in his civilian career, was sending out a numnber of letters to senators to explain how pissed off he was at the situation and to explain how unjust it was in light of what had happened in our unit.....Something has to be done about this....you sign the contract, you serve...pretty damn simple....there's a lot of guys over there not too happy about this policy...

I agree.  IMHO they should be sent to prison.

Just got back myself a few weeks ago.    All of us who are IRR were upset and angry when we first read that in the Stars and Stripes recently.  We also lost two soldiers in Iraq who were IRR.