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Posted: 1/9/2006 9:04:52 PM EDT
...What exactly did the British abandon at Dunkirk? I will be damned if i can find a list in any of my reference book sor online anywhere. ANy lists will be appreciated.
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They left pretty much every thing but the clothing on thier backs. The British used anything that could float to get their men home. Some Equipment was taken home but that was just sensitive stuff and what could be carried by hand.
In other words you can say they left every thing behind that they didn't need to stay alive on the trip home. ETA: Sorry I do not have specific list for you. You might try GOOGLE for some of the retierment organization in Britain. Also if you can find the typical load out for any given unit of the British Army at the time that would give you a little better detail of what was left behind. The numbers you may have to guess at if there arn't any published or archieved. Imagain if we had to cut and run from the middle east. The only thing that we where able to bring back was the men and the equipment on their backs. Every thing else would be destroyed in place if possible. |
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Whatever they could fit on whatever boat they were using. All the heavy stuff was left behind.
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i am aware of the history of the incident. find me a list of what exactly was left behind???
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For the exact stuff you may have to do a bit of search on your own. But: Trucks Tanks Lorries Arty Piles of support gear Pants stained with a bit of poo Frenchmen still trying to surrender to a retreating army And maby some pregers too TRY GOOGLE |
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Does that include those pieces of equipment that were destroyed during the defense?
Just saying, over the whole campaign, there's a large amount of equipment that the British took to the Continent that they didn't bring back. I don't think anyone really had the time or inclination to do an inventory as they were being run off the beaches. NTM |
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im sure our german buddies took the time to count it. they kept track of everything. i have tried google and yahoo searches extensively. i am hoping one of our military guys on here is a nutball book collector like me and has the info somewhere
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That was my assumption . Inventory of equipment wasnt a large issue back then they used what they had left . I dont know what use the germans had with there equipment thats gonna be tough . |
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I know they left nearly all their small arms behind.
That's principally why the No1mkV Enfield is so rare today - they were nearly all sent to Europe, and left on the beaches of Dunkirk. |
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I'm not sure if this was directed at me but... I'm betting there are numbers in some basement across the pond someplace. From my readings and the classes I took, every thing that had a non-secret tag on it was left behind if it was secret in any way and they could not take it they destroyed it inplace to prevent it from being used by the Germans. Most if not all of the equipment that was left behind was used by the Germans to reinforce the position on other fronts or re-enginiered for their use later on in the war. If I recall much later in the warm when we where involved the Germans had a captured P-51 that was repainted and used by the Luftuaffa in or around the German's Easter Front. |
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It's a long shot but give the Library of Congress a call. they might have some obscure text with the info you are looking for. I'm sure the Germans catologed every thing they got their hands on. It's written down someplace but I do not think the .net will be the place to find it. But then you might. |
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The Luftwaffe used quite a few captured aircraft. It was called "Rosraius' Flying Circus" (Wanderzirkus Rosarius) and was primarily used for training. Dis-similar air combat, target ID, and so on. It was part of "Verschuchsverband", the Luftwaffe's Trials and Development unit. They flew P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, Spitfires, Mosquitos, a Typhoon and a B-17 amongst others. Whilst a 'trojan horse' op would seem possible, I don't know of any such occasions that they did it with openly with aircraft. (Some B-17s in KG-200 were used to deliver agents behind enemy lines) NTM |
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During the retreat to Dunkirk the British High Command expected about 45,000 men to be available for evacuaction. Instead, a total of, 328,000 allied troops eventually reached England.
This was thanks in part to the efforts of the Royal Navy but it was also due to dogged rearguard actions at Boulogne, Calais and elsewhere, which bought the BEF valuable time. The BEF also benefited from Hitler’s order on 24 May that his panzers should halt at a time when the German 1st Panzer Division was only fifteen miles from Dunkirk. Although Htler's order to halt the Panzers is still somewhat shrouded in mystery, apparently, the reasons for it were that the low-lying ground around Dunkirk was unsuitable for tanks and that the panzer divisions needed to be preserved for the coming battle in the south. Goering also convinced Hitler that his eagles alone could destroy the BEF. Finally, the panzer divisions had suffered substantial losses in men and equipment and their lines of communications were stretched to the limit. So...Hitler dithered and waited for the Luftwaffe to finish off the BEF. On 27 May the German attack resumed, but by that point the BEF had been able to regroup and the perimeter defences around Dunkirk had been strengthened. The core of the BEF was saved at Dunkirk but the BEF suffered 68,000 casualties and virtually all of its equipment including 64,000 vehicles, 20,000 motorcycles and 2,500 guns The 1st Armoured and 51st Highland Divisions stayed behind in France as the rear guard, attempting to prop up a beaten France...but it was all for nothing. The 51st was trapped at St Valery-en-Caux and surrendered on 12 June. A little known fact is that another 144,000 allied troops were eventually brought out through Cherbourg and Brest before the total collapse of the Phrench weenies. |
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I read somewhere that the Germans would infiltrate captured B-17s into bomber formations and radio contact reports to their fighters as the formation moved across Europe. I don't know how accurate that source was. |
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There have been several accounts of the Germans using captured 17s and 24s to trail a formation and give constant heading and altitude info to flak units and ground intercept stations. They kept the US markings and were often found out by the GIs because they had the wrong squadron markings for the formation that was flying. As far as GBR equipment left at Dunkirk, you can pretty much assume just about anything not man-portable. Larger items were DIP or otherwise disable if possible. A detailed list is probably asking a little much. |
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The Wermacht liked to use the captured Bren Carriers and the STEN's.
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But as Britain had the biggest motorcycle industry in the world at that time it was no biggy, although the British motorcycle industry switched to producing vast numbers of small arms immidiately after Dunkirk, which is how some of them got a start in the first place. |
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yeah the phrench weenies who has only sacrified their first army for allowing this evacuation... Although King Leopold III surended the Belgian Army, the French First Army delayed the Germans The French Command authorized one of three French corps to participate in the withdrawal, but the other two corps of 6 divisions, closely engaged near Lille, fought on until they were surrounded. Five French Divisions set up a roadblock at Lille, where they held out for four days against seven German Panzer division (from another forum by david lehmann) The German operations against the allied pocket are not easy. The German troops are opposed to the best allied troops : the 1st French Army, the French cavalry corps and the BEF. The successful evacuation of the BEF would probably not have been possible without the stiff French resistance around Lille, which blocked 7 German divisions. From 28th May to 1st June, about 40,000 French troops led by general Molinié (also commander of the 25e DIM) held about 800 German tanks and 110,000 soldiers from the 4.PzD, 5.PzD, 7.PzD, 7.ID, 217.ID, 253.ID and 267.ID. The French troops are composed of various more or less complete units. These French troops fought encircled until all their ammunition was used and led several counter-attacks, the commander of 253.ID, general Kühne, was even captured. The Germans let the defenders parade in the streets after the battle granted them the honors of war to salute their fierce resistance. Even Churchill in his memories recognized the role of the troops in Lille. |
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Strangly, it was Charles De Gaulle who was the outstanding French Commander in the defence of France, he handled his armour very well. The fault lies not with the men at the front, it was the Staff Generals at the rear who lacked Testicular Fortitude. The French .Gov ordering the French forces to pull back left the British outflanked and cut off. ANdy |
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In before me. Good job Dewoitine!
If someone can explain me why the British retreating soldiers were heroes, and why the French fighting to protect them were surrender monkeys... E.T.A : no more response from me to French bashing tonight, I’m going to bed. But I will come back! Andy, if one day you’re coming in Paris, drop me a mail. I love your sense of humour ! |
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Merci , Back to the anglois, my exams will be finished in 1 week i will post some thread concerning the french army during WWII after that. |
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I will! ANdy |
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Le Grand Charles... he was a visionary of armoured warfare in the Fuller/Liddle Hart/Guderian mould. If the politicians had listened to him he would have run the Germans out of town on a rail in 1940.
1912–1940: Military career Young Charles De Gaulle chose a military career and spent four years at the École Spéciale Militaire de Saint-Cyr (the French equivalent of the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York or the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst at Camberley in the United Kingdom). He graduated in 1912 and decided to join an infantry regiment when he could have joined an elite corps. During World War I, then Captain De Gaulle was severely wounded at the gruesome Battle of Verdun in March 1916, and left for dead on the battlefield. Still alive, he was found and taken prisoner by the Germans. He made five unsuccessful escape attempts, and was put in solitary confinement in a retaliation camp. When the war ended, he remained in the military, serving on the staff of Gen. Maxime Weygand and then Gen. Philippe Pétain. During the Polish-Soviet war in 1919-1920, he volunteered to be a member of the French Military Mission to Poland and was an infantry instructor with the Polish army. He fought and distinguished himself in fighting near the river Zbrucz and received the highest Polish military award, Virtuti Militari. He was promoted to major and offered possibility of a further career in Poland, but chose instead to return to France. He was heavily influenced by that war, namely by the use of tanks, fast maneuvers and lack of trenches. Based partially on his observations during war in Poland, which was so different from experiences from WWI, he published a number of books and articles on the reorganisation of the army, particularly Vers l'Armée de Métier (published in English as "The Army of the Future") in which he proposed the formation of a professional mechanised army with specialised armoured divisions in preference to the static theories exemplified by the Maginot Line. While Heinz Guderian and elements in the German Army General Staff had views similar to De Gaulle's, Pétain rejected most of De Gaulle's theories, and the relationship between them became strained. French politicians also dismissed De Gaulle's theories, fearing the political reliablity of any professional army, with the notable exception of Paul Reynaud who would later play a major role in De Gaulle's career. At the outbreak of World War II, De Gaulle was only a colonel, having encountered hostility from the leaders of the military through the 1920s and 1930s due to his bold views. After the German breakthrough at Sedan, on May 15 1940 he was finally given command of the 4th Armoured Division. On May 17, 1940, De Gaulle attacked the German tank forces at Montcornet. With only 200 French tanks and no air support, the offensive had little impact on the German advance. There was more success on May 28, when De Gaulle's tanks forced the German infantry to retreat at Caumont. This was one of the few significant tactical successes the French gained against the Germans during the campaign. Prime Minister Paul Reynaud promoted him provisional brigadier general (thus his title of général De Gaulle). On June 6, Paul Reynaud appointed him undersecretary of state for national defence and war and put him in charge of coordination with the United Kingdom. As senior official in the French government he resisted proposals to surrender. He served as a liaison with the British government, and with Churchill carved a project of union between France and the United Kingdom on the morning of June 16 in London. This was a last minute effort to try to strengthen the resolve of those members of the French government who were in favor of continuing the war. He took the plane back to Bordeaux (provisory seat of the French government) on that same afternoon, but when landing in Bordeaux in the evening he learned that Pétain had become premier with the intention of seeking an armistice with Germany. That same day he took the most important decision in his life and in the modern history of France: he would refuse the humiliation of a French surrender and instead rebel against the apparently legal (but illegitimate in his eyes) government of Pétain, returning to London and calling for the continuation of war. On the morning of June 17, with 100,000 gold francs from the secret funds given to him the previous night by Paul Reynaud, he fled Bordeaux by plane, narrowly escaped German aviation, and landed in London that same afternoon. De Gaulle decided to reject French capitulation and to set about building a movement which would appeal to overseas French, opponents of a separate arrangement with Germany. 1940–1945: The Free French Forces On June 18, De Gaulle prepared to speak to the French people, via BBC radio, from London. The British Cabinet attempted to block the speech, but was overruled by Churchill. In France, De Gaulle's "Appeal of June 18" could be heard nationwide in the evening. The phrase "France has lost a battle; she has not lost the war", which appeared on posters in Britain at the time, is often incorrectly associated with the BBC broadcast; nevertheless the words aptly capture the spirit of De Gaulle's position. Although only few people actually heard the speech that night (the BBC was seldom listened to on the continent, and millions of Frenchmen were refugees on the road), excerpts of the speech appeared in French newspapers the next day in the (unoccupied) southern part of France, and the speech was repeated for several days on the BBC. Soon enough, among the chaos and bewilderment that was France in June 1940, the news that a French general was in London refusing to accept the tide of events and calling for the end of despair and the continuation of a winnable war was spread by word of mouth. To this day it remains one of the most famous speeches in French history. From London, De Gaulle formed and led the Free French movement. Whereas the USA continued to recognise Vichy France, the British government of Winston Churchill supported De Gaulle, initially maintaining relations with the Vichy government but subsequently recognising the Free French. On July 4, 1940, a court-martial in Toulouse sentenced De Gaulle in absentia to four years in prison. At a second court-martial on August 2, 1940, De Gaulle was condemned to death for treason. In his dealings with his British allies and the United States, De Gaulle insisted at all times in retaining full freedom of action on behalf of France, even where this might embarrass or inconvenience his partners in the war. "France has no friends, only interests" is one of his best-remembered statements. Churchill is often misquoted as having commented, regarding working with De Gaulle, that: "Of all the crosses I have had to bear during this war, the heaviest has been the Cross of Lorraine (De Gaulle's symbol of Free France)". (The actual quote was by Churchill's envoy to France, Major-General Edward Spears [1],[2].) Working with the French resistance and supporters in France's colonial possessions in Africa, after the Anglo-American invasion of North Africa in November 1942, De Gaulle moved his headquarters to Algiers in May 1943. He became first joint head (with the less resolutely independent Gen. Henri Giraud, the candidate preferred by the United States) and then sole chairman of the Committee of National Liberation. At the liberation of France following Operation Overlord, in which Free French forces played a minor but symbolic role, he quickly established the authority of the Free French Forces in France, avoiding an Allied Military Government for Occupied Territories in France. He was flown into France from Algeria a few hours before the liberation of Paris, and drove near the front of the column of liberating forces into the city alongside allied officials. After his return to Paris, he moved back into his office at the War Ministry, thus proclaiming continuity of the Third Republic and denying the legitimacy of Vichy France. After the war he served as the President of the provisional government from September 1944 but resigned on January 20, 1946, complaining of conflict between the political parties, and disapproving of the draft constitution for the Fourth Republic which he believed placed too much power in the hands of parliament with its shifting party alliances. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle |
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For the most part, the French troops fought well. As has been stated, the Fall of France was due more to many years of corrupt French corrupt, a completge lack of understanding of modern, maneuver, combined arms warfare on the part of the French general staff, a lack of accurate understanding of Hitler's true intentions and the advanced capabilities of the Werhmacht WRT the armed forces of the other European states...AND a general lack of French preparedness. The French leaders, like many virtually all of the rest of Europe, were largely pacifists and totally unprepared for someone like Hitler. With ALL due respect to my friends in the UK, you had, as we do here in America, a wonderful advantage to protect you: an ocean. I suspect that even Britain would have had a very difficult time stopping Hitler's tanks had the Nazis not been stopped by the Channel. In this discussion we must also remember that the Fall of France was not due to the British, nor any other state. It was do to the skill of the Germans and the [overall] ineptness of the French armed forces. Again, that is not to say that the average French grunt, sailor or airman was a coward or stupid. Far from it. They fought hard for as long as possible. No, the fault lies with the French leadership, both civilian and military. Remember this finally...six weeks...that is all it took for that Little Corporal to be strutting outside the railway car at Compagne. Oh...and lastly, for our Phrench amis: One thing we here in America still can't grasp is how relatively easily your nation fell to the Germans. Here in the United States, a huge part of our population is armed. An invading army would have to conquer virtually the entire country to subjigate us...and even then we wouldn't surrender. Admiral Yamamoto even stated as such when he was musing about attacking us in 1941. He recognized how much we prize our freedoms,,,even above life itself. He recognized a salient truth about us: We would NEVER live under a tyrant. So...that is one big reason we often exhibit disdain for your country and your abilities to conduct warfare. |
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