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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:39:52 PM EDT
[#1]
#1 - drug dealers & such AREN'T using "assault weapons"
In England, where most guns are outlawed, they are awash in illegal machineguns. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:39:59 PM EDT
[#2]
tag
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:40:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Political and media hype and propaganda.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:40:52 PM EDT
[#4]
94 hollywood shootout.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:45:36 PM EDT
[#5]
That's one and I remember another one that a bank robber used a converted HK91 to shoot up the cops that where chasing him......and missed all of them I might add. [thank god] |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:46:39 PM EDT
[#6]
the HK was bought in mexico , the AR and AK's were converted. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:48:40 PM EDT
[#7]
I find myself in agreement with you lately. Scary  
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:50:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Most of them steal what they use, in general they don't have the smarts to convert or assemble parts kits into FA. Yes, there are always exceptions. They are not the rule, though. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:51:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Stens pretty hard to conceal in your pocket unlike a pistol.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:03:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Yep and that's my point if they where being used......we would hear about. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:06:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Last I remember they (ATF) still don't know who converted the AK's (IIRC they were Norincos and already illegal in Cali, and they're confident that those two muttonheads weren't the converters...)
Didn't know they had an AR, too? Thought it was just an HK, an AK, and then it went to handguns? One of those dorks actually carried two rifles? |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:09:22 PM EDT
[#12]
We did have a motorcycle gang in Colorado that was building STEN's but I don't think any reached the street. (BTW, this had to be at least ten years ago.)
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:09:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Go read the thread about Riviera Beach. The mayor says the streets are awash with assault rifles. The press labels everything as assault rifles. They don't even bother with "assault weapon"  anymore, they just go straight to assault rifle.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:10:03 PM EDT
[#14]
That's pretty much true of most SMGs, even a MAC-10 is a heavy pig. The only weapon class I can think of that would really be popular would be the machinepistols like the Glock18, 93R etc. But having shot both I don't see them has being more effective then a SBS in untrained hands. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:10:41 PM EDT
[#15]
I don't recall, nor do I believe, that either had an AR. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:13:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Watch the video. Unless the footage was slowed down that I saw, only one was full auto. The other had too slow a rate of fire. It has been reported over and over about the armor piercing ammo used but I doubt very much it was AP. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:13:34 PM EDT
[#17]
I think the only illegal unregistered MGs out there are garage chop jobs done by Billy Bob out in the woods, and he only does mag dumps on his family's 90 acres.
The "weapon of choice" line is utter bullshit. I ahve done tons of research for papers while in college, and the most used firearms in crimes is a pistol. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:17:03 PM EDT
[#18]
I always thought they did. The second one to die, when he shoots through the windsheild of the car. here is a link that lists the weaponry according to the Police http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:23:42 PM EDT
[#19]
They did. Converted Bushmaster, IIRC |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:24:15 PM EDT
[#20]
The guy shooting though the car window was using a AK |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:25:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Most illegal MGs are C/R bring backs from the Great War, World War 2, Korea, Vietnam, etc. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:26:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Shame when a good thread devolves into misinformation about the 1997 North Hollywood bank shooting.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:29:22 PM EDT
[#23]
you could be right. though on the History channel I could have sworn they said it was an Ar15/M16(dont remember exactly) |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:31:15 PM EDT
[#24]
If you did that on purpose, you are a funny, funny man. Good point - let's try to stay on topic. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:40:39 PM EDT
[#25]
One of the reasons I asked the question is......I really want to see an end to the 68 and 86 MG bans, and the only way I see that happening is to change the way the public see private ownership of Class 3 weapons. I know the press and VPC are always going to fight us on this issue, so that leaves us to educate the unwashed masses.
One of my ways of doing this is proving that a automatic weapon isn't more a public threat then any other firearm. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:46:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Go ahead the excersize your rights to keep and bear arms. They will like you in prison.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:46:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Well..  fire a SMG into a crowd and fire a flintlock into a crowd.More of a 'I don't know/trust the user, not the gun per-say'  Still, I'd like a Thompson.  Edit: Is that a rainbow sponge?  |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:48:32 PM EDT
[#28]
The recent bank robbery/shootout here in San Antonio was with illegally converted semi-autos. Shot a good number of rounds, wounding an officer. Bastards.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:48:33 PM EDT
[#29]
 the NFA mafia is here. Didn't even read the fucking thread, did you? |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:51:21 PM EDT
[#30]
Ok....one better a M1 carbine vs a M2 carbine in the same shooting, both have the same capacity one just shoots faster. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 8:59:16 PM EDT
[#31]
I hope the officer is ok [as ok as you can be after being shot] But the point is "good number of rounds" .....one wounded officer. Could have done the same job with a shotgun or a pistol. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:06:41 PM EDT
[#32]
Screw educating the public as they don't matter anyway, they already have their opinion. But what stinks is that as soon as the '86 ban is mentioned here, 1/2 the people already have the attitude that it's never going away and that's what needs to be addressed. The only real way we're going to get them back is through a class action lawsuit and cooperation with each other and unfortunately we can't do either for the time being. It's not the publics attitude that needs to change first, it's the gunowners. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:20:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Ya make a good point bro. How many rounds expended in the North Hollywood shootout? 1,100 more or less How many innocents killed? None. Now, take a look at the Miami shootout between the FBI and Platt/Matix. Wiki Link Armed only with a semi-auto mini-14. Imagine if he had an AR15...or an M14... The weapon doesn't matter, only the shooter. My favorite example of this? Sergeant York |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:25:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Nope. Guy shooting through the car window used a converted bushy. A1 barrel and handguards, collapsible stock, and he did a full beta dump through the windshield of the car in "Iraqi offhand" style. In other words, he held the rifle sorta over his head, then held the trigger down and sprayed from side to side until the mag emptied. Because of this, he didn't even really fire in the right direction of the responding officers. If you watch the tape, he is shooting in a slightly different direction than the cops, and as they move behind the truck, his fire does not follow because he isn't actually looking where he is shooting. He's the one the responding SWAT cops shot in the legs from under the truck that they took cover behind, then arrested the BG who was still alive at the time of arrest, then watched as he bled out before the ambulance arrived. No great loss, as it were. Chris |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:26:29 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:26:59 PM EDT
[#36]
If you put it that way, off the top of my head, I'd say the skill of the shooter would play more of a role in any death toll than the rate of fire. But what do I know. 
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Posted: 1/5/2006 10:00:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Look, I love MG's as much as the next guy. The fact is that a properly utilized machinegun battery can and will change the outcome of a battle. Remember the real machine-gun kelly in ww2 and what he did? The ATF, and every other law enforcement and military organization fears just one proper machine gun falling into the wrong hands. And they fear this with good reason. If I had a machine gun would I use it for evil purposes? Hell no. You wouldn't either. Just imagine some lone deputy sheriff heading out to investigate a possible meth lab and run up on a few guys with the know how to run a machine gun the right way. Neither he, nor the rest of the department would have a chance. Not all criminals are dumbasses. I realize that given time all humans make mistakes...as in Bonnie and Clyde. But that didn't stop Bonnie's BAR from doing its job right until the end. Anyway, I am a vet and if I had an M249 at my disposal and if I was in a bind and if I was criminal minded it wouldn't be pretty. Do I think m-16 full autos would make a big impression on the criminal takeover of the free world? Not likely. But in releasing small machine guns to the public the big ones get released too which I personally think is a bad idea. I would love it if we could all have our own true full auto small arms but in reality I don't see it happening. I wish the world was a respectible place where such ownership would not be hazardous but unfortunately it isn't. The law abiding citizens are not to blame or not to be faulted in my opinion. Personally I think crime is due to the piss poor justice system of our country. Back in the old days if you killed someone you would be hung from the gallows untill dead. This was done on public display. Now, you serve a few years in the pen getting fat and happy until perole comes up. That is the real problem. Too many liberal tree hugging fags if you ask me. I hope this post doesn't offend anyone. If it does then I suggest you change your ways and go to church and become a normal person as God intended.
Thanks, Rant off! Wes |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 10:19:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Lord_Vulcanizer.... you make a good point I was going to mention Bonnie Parker and the BAR as a example of what could happen with a trained gunner. But accurate rifles like the ones used for hunting and target shooting have always been available to the public.... and yet very few long range murders. Even if you count the Beltway sniper [and I would hardly call them marksmen] sniping is a rare thing as far as crime goes.
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Posted: 1/5/2006 10:25:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Yep...that's where I was going with this. An IPSC national champion with a Ruger 22 is far more dangerous then most people are with a MP-5. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 10:35:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Wrong it is the public opinion that is most important......why do you think Brady and the media put out so much BS about 50cals,"assault rifles", "sniper rifles,A/P ammo etc. Brady/VPC is nothing more then a advertising agency selling a product.....which in this case is gun control. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:03:55 AM EDT
[#41]
Trained and disciplined machinegunners are hard to come by in the criminal world...thank God. But any intelligent person...or trained person...understands the threat of such folks and how imperative it is that these folks are denied access to the destructive power of true machine guns. Just imagine the havok caused by untrained people running machine guns. Not that there have ever been very many running a squad operated type weopon...thank God. Untrained thugs with homemade or captured auto weopons are bad enough. Just think what a trained squad could do with a Ma Duece in an urban environment and the chaos it could cause along with loss of life and property. Common thugs are just that, ignorant folks without regard to the destructive power of the firearms they possess. Anyway, I don't always approve of the government firearm rules but the lines must be drawn. However, at the same time I don't believe that the government should be able to possess the means to outgun or be able to suppress the rights of the citizens with overwhelming firepower! Does any of this make sense? Someone tell me please!
Wes |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:28:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Yes the last guy to die at the end - after he jacked the old man's white pickup truck, then was confronted by 2-3 cops in a patrol car. He was firing through the windshield and over the hood with an AR15 with a BETA-C mag in. He was eventually shot underneath the truck through his shins. They found he was shot like 40 times, and he bled out face down on the ground. He was the last bank robber to die. His family sued the PD for not providing faster medical support. The essentially disarmed him, cuffed him behind his back and watched him die face down on the cement. How can you guys not remember that one? THe very last weapon he used was the AR15 with the BETA-C. - rem |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:37:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Well you are a little late there. We aren't allowed to own the big stuff our military has. A civil war or any large uprising would be shut down pretty quick by the US military. Even the few guys that have belt feds and heavy weapons wouldn't have a chance against tanks and attack choppers. Sure there are some guys that have old tanks and APC's but no rounds for them. Face it, if our government decided to take arms against the people or the country was thrown into chaos, WE DONT STAND A CHANCE AGAINST OUR GOVERNMENT. Not unless some military units with tanks, choppers, aircraft, arty, etc, decided to join "our" side or what have you. It's a joke to think that average civilians with semi-auto rifles of any caliber (or even machine guns) pose a thread against a coordinated and advanced military such as ours. It's almost as pathetic as the croats defending themselves against the serb military in the balkan wars. - rem |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:48:30 AM EDT
[#44]
You dont need a machinegun to rob a bank is the short answer. Most bank jobs dont result in gunplay, and SMGs aren't as concealable as a pistol. Desperados low on cash and IQ points probably dont have the wherewithal to make them anyway.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:53:21 AM EDT
[#45]
Tactics my friend. Tactics. I can think of a few ways that would have them scratching their heads. Think like an insurgent. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:58:36 AM EDT
[#46]
It is a bizarre fantasy to think of the U.S. Govt in open-battle against civilians. 
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Posted: 1/6/2006 1:02:58 AM EDT
[#47]
I highly doubt any sort of rebellion or insurgency would last in America unless the country were literally divided and both sides had access to modern military weapons. There is no way that civilians could openly face the US government and the type of arms it has immediately at it's disposal. Citizens are for the most part untrained, slow and uncoordinated. Think the internet is going to be running to provide a way to organize? Think your cell phones are going to be working? Think again, all that shit is going to be shut down. You're going to need to rely on radios and ham skills. It's going to be extremely difficult to get everyone together and plan a defense or attack. People in Iraq and other parts of the world have been fighting for decades. ETA: When talking about America as a whole and thinking about what would happen if there were some sort of uprising or conflict on our soil that caused some to go against the government or vice versa, you have to take into the account the makeup of society in general. Most of America has been babied into complacency and would do anything to keep their sofas and tv's. Then you have to take into account the numbers of children, women, elderly, poor, illegals, etc. I'd bet there are very that would fight no matter what the issue. America is the perfect country to slowly change into some police state with no rights as people have slowly been brainwashed into loving their stuff more than their actual rights. Kids and people nowadays know less and care less about anything. - rem |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 1:31:16 AM EDT
[#48]
So then just what is the BATFE though the 34,68 and 86 protecting "us" from ?
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:17:36 AM EDT
[#49]
I see your point but think of this; with 70,000 members on this board alone contributing just $20.00 each, don't you believe that could get us started toward our goal of repealing the '86 ban? $1,400,000 could buy a lot of advertising plus a descent lawyer. Now ask yourself could the members of this board come to an agreement to even get something like that started. The answer is probably no. And unless we can first unite in some sort of way and fight it together, then we won't get anything. |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:55:57 AM EDT
[#50]
All true about the effectiveness of a machine gun in trained hands!! And a semi-auto assault weapon (AR, AK, HK, FAL etc) with a high-capacity magazine and spare mags, is nearly as deadly in trained hands as well. |
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