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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:35:28 AM EDT
[#1]
it all depends on the person's size, metabolism, and capacity. you can be over the limit and still be in control and, vice versa, a person can be drunk as a skunk but still be under the limit.
ETA: either way, you can still be busted. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:36:13 AM EDT
[#2]
I've seen many hardcore drinkers able to pass a FST but fail the breath test.
Of all my DUI arrests I only had one go under the limit. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:41:15 AM EDT
[#3]
I dont do FSTs
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:46:42 AM EDT
[#4]
So you go straight to the breathalyzer? You can do that? (yes, I'm sincerely asking) |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:50:25 AM EDT
[#5]
In short, nothing says that I have to do standarized field sobriety tests. Hell, I dont even have to get them to blow on the Breathalyzer if I dont want to. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:55:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Wouldn't it be better, from the standpoint of making the DUI charge stick, to do one or the other though? |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:57:07 AM EDT
[#7]
I'm middle aged, if I ever get pulled over for suspected DUI I am not gonna do a field test, just check my breath and be done with it.
But then again...I don't drink and drive anyways. Only fools do. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:57:38 AM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:00:33 AM EDT
[#9]
I don't drink but I'd probably have trouble passing at least some field sobriety tests--I simply have a very poor sense of balance. I can't stand on one foot to put my pants on. I sway all over if I walk toe-to-toe. I cannot walk a log across a creek--I will fall in every time (SUCKS for a hunter).
 I speak clearly and enunciate well, so hopefully I won't ever get to that point. 
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:04:04 AM EDT
[#10]
In the days of my youth I witnessed a friend who was very intoxicated pass the field sobriety test 4 times in a row. He was just a good drunk. The rules were different then. The cops had to let him go because he was not impaired as per the test results and definitions at the time. Back then a DUI meant a ride home or possibly a bit of time in the drunk tank. I know he was drunk because we were out drinking with some friends on leave and had matched drink for drink. I had already puked out the window before the stop.
If the same friend got caught in that condition today he would be in jail and owe mucho dinero in fines and fees. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:09:03 AM EDT
[#11]
I have been stopped 3 times in myh life. Twice for speed (Guilty).
Once by the Ohio State Patrol. I was not sure of his story. He told me I had no front license plate. I stated I did, it might have fallen off. He asked me to step out of the car and we walked to the front. My plate was there. He said he must have been mistaken. He asked me how much I had been drinking. I replied nothing (I don't drink). This was 9:00 in the morning. He test me some more and give me an electronic field sobreity test. I pass that. He then states that his field test electronic thing must be broken and calls for someone else to bring one. While we wait for 45+ minutes he lectures me on how bad my problem must be to be drinking this early in the morning and that I should seek help, etc, etc, etc. Did I mention my boss was in the car? He did walk up there and tell him not to worry, he wasn't in any trouble. Then he came back and lectured me some more. Then the other OSP officer shows up with his field test kit thingy. I pass again. The new officer talks to me for a few seconds and gets in his car and leaves. The first officer now starts lecturing me again and saying that he still doesn't believe his test but he is going to let me go because he has to, but he was going to give me a ticket for not having a seat belt on. I replied that I did have it on. He said, no you didn't you put it on after I passed you and before I caught up to you. I paid the ticket and went on with life. I don't know what he had in his ass that day, but for 1 hour and 45 minutes of my life he wanted to lecture me about drinking, when I hadn't had a drink in 3 or 4 years. I look back and laugh and wonder why he had such a bad day. I can see, however, how some people get disgrunteld with law enforcement. This has been my only encounter with LE that wasn't 100% positive. Dan |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:11:13 AM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:19:14 AM EDT
[#13]
Now I know why you are a freak about using the safety. 
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:22:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Well lets not turn this into a cop bashing thread.... but from *your* side of the story.... that person does NOT need to be a law enforcement officer. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:30:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Yes it's possible to pass FST's and be under or over the limit, and also to fail them and be either under or over the limit. I've personally witnessed all four scenarios. By far, people that pass them are not over the limit but it is quite possible. Usually are people who are frequent drinkers who are familiar with having a few drinks in them, rather than someone just pounding drinks down for the sake of drinking. Years ago I volunteered to be one of the drinking test subjects for a DUI/FST class and spent the morning drinking in a college classroom with several buddies, all on the academy's dime. When the time came for the tests, I was given them about a dozen or so times. I passed, even though barely, every time, and when we took the breath test to show where we were at, I was at a .09 (at the time the limit was .10). Instructor told them, rightly so, well, he passed the tests & the breath test shows he was under, so you release and send on his way.
yeah who needs all that evidence gained from several proven studies acknowledged as accurate by the courts. We'll just go on your assumptions. That's good enough. I wouldn't brag about your lack of proper investigative procedures. If someone takes a shot of whiskey as you approch them they're going to reek from that strong smell but they won't be impaired if it's their first shot. Under your rules, they're going with you?? For some reason I hope you're not being serious about this, but I think you are. Get many cases dropped?
I'd suggest you try laying on your back and stick your legs in the air while you pull your pants on. It might be girlish but at least you won't get a DUI! 
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:42:55 AM EDT
[#16]
I have to sit on the bed to put my pants on--no I'm NOT kidding. Tighty-whities I can do okay due to the speed of whipping a foot into them, but long johns and trousers require a seated position. Hey, a man needs to know his limitations. One of mine is a poor sense of balance. 
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:53:41 AM EDT
[#17]
FST's with the exception of checking your pupil tracking with a light are a joke! They'r just designed to get you off balance (no pun intended) and give the LEO a little more time to observe you. This from many LEO's including relatives I'v spoken to on the subject. Tell the officer you don't understand the instructions and could he demonstrate? Particulary the one where you stand on one leg,with the other leg extended in front of you with your eyes closed. I work late odd hrs and live near a police academy,and have been stopped many times driving into town. Quite a % of the officers couldn't do that "test" and others when requested.
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:54:22 AM EDT
[#18]
I know I have trouble with it. I've been arrested twice, and I don't drink and never even tasted it. The nystagmus test test on me is completely bogus due to my age and how much caffine I drink, but the cops I've know still treat it as gospel. I lost some of my hearing and had three bad ear infections when I was in Korea. I blame that on why I fail miserably at leaning my head back and trying to lift one foot. I have a lot of trouble walking with eyes closed or in complete darkness. Add-in my speech which has never been very good and my (probable) Parkinson's, and I'm just screwed. The cops should start testing the poor drivers rather than people at random. The field tests just aren't good enough.z |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:55:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Doesn't sound like you should even be driving Zoom.
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Posted: 1/4/2006 12:01:44 PM EDT
[#20]
lightweight 
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Posted: 1/4/2006 12:20:04 PM EDT
[#21]
i have the same problem with balance unless i'm walking or running. i can walk a log fine, but ask me to stand on one foot on a log, and i'll be wet within 5 seconds. got pulled over one time, and told the officer about this particular problem, so naturally he gives me nothing but static balance-based tests. finally he asks me to walk the line, which i do without any problem whatsoever. he accused me of lying to him, and told me that i obviously had been drinking heavily. at that point i got fed up and demanded the breathalyzer. this was back during the .10 days. i blew a .02. amusingly enough, it was precisely what i told him i'd blow based on 3 drinks in 2 hours for my size. here's where it gets funny. in a huff, he asks me how far away from home i was. i point to my complex, which was less than 1/2 mile away, and invite him to follow me and arrest me if i do anything wrong. he replies that i need some coffee to sober up, (which is a myth) and demands that i drive a mile and a half to a convenience store to buy some, or he'll take me to jail. ahhh...the joys of dealing with a cop when his ego is bruised. 
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Posted: 1/4/2006 12:26:23 PM EDT
[#22]
ok--how would you deal with the PI vs. DWI method of getting around a stop? |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 12:31:21 PM EDT
[#23]
I did mention that they were providing the drinks. We were allocated how much we could drink. One officer's friend was there and snuck in a bottle of Seagram's gin. After her four wine coolers and most of that bottle, she was pretty trashed. It was more fun watching her try the tests than anything else.  
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Posted: 1/4/2006 2:11:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Do you know how to administer the SFST battery? |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 2:16:20 PM EDT
[#25]
The other two tests(one leg stand and walk and turn) are not designed to "get you off balance." They were designed and scientifically proven that we look for certain things that are a very high indicator of intoxication. I don't know how your LEO relatives and friends were trained but to say that is utter BS. The one leg stand does not have you keep your eyes closed. In fact the test subject is instructed to look down at the foot they pick up off the ground. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 2:26:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Once I failed the field sobriety test and then passed 2 breathalyzer tests. I hadn't had anything to drink in at least 2 days, but when I closed my eyes and tilted my head back I fell over.
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Posted: 1/4/2006 2:45:30 PM EDT
[#27]
I'm a cop and I have stopped many people for drinking and driving and that does happen alot, especially with the hard-core alcoholics. I once stopped a guy and he passed all the FST's with flying colors. I then did the HGN test on him (The eye test that we do with the pen) and he did horrible. He blew a .35. I also noticed that people who have jobs in which they need great balance, such as martial arts guys or some masonry guys who are always working on roofs, they do real good on the FST's because they have good balance. I always start with easy tests such as the ABC, then the finger dexterity (thumb to each finger), one-legged stand, and then the walk and turn. In NJ you have to do FST's unless that person is so incompasitated (sh*t faced), then I'll just take him to the hospital and draw blood. THe breathalizer is just to confirm that the person is drunk. If I stop someone for swirving and I do the FST's and he fails, I arrest them, bring them in and put them on the breathalizer. Even if they blow under a .08, I still charge them with DWI and when I go to court I have to prove that he was drunk by the FST's (However, when those cases go to court, they usually get downgraded.). In NJ, a driver does not have to do the FST's, but he does have to take the breathalizer. I never heard of any State that you don't have to do the FST's.
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Posted: 1/4/2006 2:57:40 PM EDT
[#28]
At least you actually had some alcohol in your system. How'd you like to be arrested for failing the roadside hokey-pokey, blow a .0000000000000000000~ on the station breathalyzer & then get accused of being stoned instead & have to give a urine sample (which came back 100% clean also)? And some folks wonder why not everybody is a fan of overzealous, overgrown hall monitor JBTs. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 3:08:42 PM EDT
[#29]
+1 There is a high correlation between failure of the FSTs and alcohol concentration. They are also designed to measure the subjects "divided attention"; no matter which test you are performing, you are usually doing two things at once, which mimics drivinga a car. In a car, you are seeing, or somehow observing, your surroundings; and you are formulating and executing a reaction to your surroundings. At least two separate things. When I was fonder of "the wee drop" than I am now, I conceived of the idea of practicing the FSTs, while intoxicated. I beleive that I succeeded, ...and I 'm a fairly clumsy person. Of course, my judgment was clouded; I was impaired. You know: "Of course I can drive! I'm sotally tober!" I think that certain skills can be practiced, like not slurring your words, and keeping your balance, in general. That leads some people who don't know what they should be looking for to assume that those persons are "handling it, they are OK". They are emphatically NOT OK. But, to answer your question: "Do you feel lucky?" |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 3:30:08 PM EDT
[#30]
I worked in research for a while with vapor detection systems...and ended up building an alcohol vapor detector. I calibrated it to a BAL machine, and had a lot of fun with it.
What I really came to realize is that most people have no idea of what .08 BAL means to them. If you sat them down in a controlled setting and said to drink until they are .08, they fail all the time. Personally, I have great balance, mental focus, and I can become "mentally sober" and very functional in about 2 minutes if intoxicated (or sleep deprived, or injured, whatever). That doesn't mean that I can lower my BAL at will, nor does it make it ok to drive, only that I could prob pass a FST easily. Despite that fact I don't drive over the limit for obvious reasons, the least of which is I value my good record and dislike courtrooms. I couldn't carry around my research machine, but I did get a DOT certified breathalizer and keep it in the car. For one thing, the playing field is now even, and what's more, if a friend of mine is being an ass about not giving me his keys, it's pretty easy to make a case when the digital tester shows he's way over the limit... Halfway decent machines can cost as little as $80, and many are accurate enough to help make good decisions. I personally think that anyone who drinks should have one. It's as obvious as having a speedometer in your car. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 3:44:46 PM EDT
[#31]
I thought the reason for standarizedation was to ensure people are fairly and accurately evaluated when a person is suspected of being DWI |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 3:45:31 PM EDT
[#32]
My Father cannot do any of the balance FST's. He can stand on one foot for about a nanosecond. He tells the officer about this and gives them a letter from his MD stating this as well. He then asks for a blood test at the hospital or to be let to go on his way.
They always let him go. Too much paperwork for a .0000000000 blood test at around 150.00 charged to the State Patrol. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 3:55:03 PM EDT
[#33]
It may have already been said but Standard Field Sobrity Test (SFST) are limited by the officers ability to administer them properly and pick up on clues that the person is drunk. Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (follow my finger with your eyes only....) is hard to beat if you are drunk but some people who are not drunk will still show clues because they have a natural nystagmus (twitching of the eyes). Head trauma can also cause nystagmus.
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Posted: 1/4/2006 3:55:06 PM EDT
[#34]
Wow, you'd be more fun than a trained monkey--"Hey Paradude54, close your eyes and look up there!" THUD!
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Posted: 1/4/2006 8:18:55 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 1/4/2006 8:22:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Also, around here a test like the HGN isnt admisable in court without having attended a certifed course on it. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 8:32:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Caffeine has absolutely nothing to do with HGN. 
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Posted: 1/4/2006 8:38:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Trust me...if you take the class and get very proficient in them it will help alot. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 8:42:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Actually I prefer not doing them. Most of the guys that do FSTs almost always go to trial where they bat 50/50. To me, through personal expereince and observation, FSTs dont really add anything to your case unless you are dealing with someone that doesn't end up blowing very high and you still want to take them. I'm not the only one like this. Our ABC guys and a number of troopers dont do any FSTs. Hell, a lot of the guys in patrol only do FSTs if they are trying to kil time for the Breathalyzer to show up, are rookies, or just want to do it.
Edit: Troopers dont do FSTs on scene, they conduct the arrest then do FST in the Intoxilyzer room at Intake. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 9:53:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Why would you post that when you know that's not true? You've posted some very off the wall stuff lately. What's going on? I guess next you're going to say that nicotine and aspirin don't affect it.z |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 10:11:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Not directed to anyone in particular.
Well if you know you have medical issues and and can't pass the FSTs, the Doctor's note might do it. If it doesn't, well the chemical tests will show up OK. BTW, if your driving is such that you get pulled over because you appear to be falling under the usual symptoms of a dui more than once, maybe you need to concentrate more on your driving. Or your medical condition is such that maybe you need to reassess your safety on the road. People don't get pulled over for no reason, no matter what the JBT bashers would like you to believe. Even at checkpoints, you get questioned first, and if you have no problems like smelling like a still, etc, you get waved on your way. |
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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:31:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Are you required to take a breath test or a FST when pulled over. If you refuse can you be convicted of DWI?
Roy |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 2:17:22 AM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 1/5/2006 2:50:24 AM EDT
[#44]
I can pass a FST everytime at .08
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Posted: 1/5/2006 2:58:26 AM EDT
[#45]
true story--happened to a friend named john in plano, so not an urban legend. john had been drinking heavily one night, and got pulled over doing about 80. knowing that he would go down for DWI if tested, he reached into the back seat, pulled out a liter of skyy vodka, and begins chugging this in full view of the officer and the camera. he refused to say anything other than "yes", "no", and "lawyer", and was, of course, arrested. because of this, he did not get a DWI. the basis for this was that there was no way for the prosecuter to demonstrate that his BAC was not the result of his drinking after he pulled over and ceased to be a driver. he could not prove that john had been drinking before. so john went down for speeding, PC, and PI, but not DWI or DUI. and all this with what john (another bartender) figured was a .15 BAC. so how does one handle that? [edit: damn tags] |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 3:01:31 AM EDT
[#46]
DAmn, john took a chance and got lucky, I think.
Here in NC, I think he'd get a dui just from being behind the wheel with the keys in the ignition. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 3:11:44 AM EDT
[#47]
Once, many years ago, I had an MP at the front gate acuse me of being drunk while going on base. It was in the morning, and he said I failed the little 'follow my pen' test, so he decided that I needed a FST.
As he was demonstrating each part of the test, he couldn't do the lean back part, and I asked him how he was supposed to judge my ability if he couldn't even do it. He let me go, after bitching. And I was stone sober. However, I had a local cop bust me dead to rights for DUI, but he wanted to give me to the MP's instead of taking me to the magistrates office. He screwed up. When the guy who picked up my car rolled up to the gate, the cop was handing me over to the Sergeant at Arms, and I asked if I could go, because my car was right there. The Sergeant let me walk..... needless to say, the local doughnut muncher was pissed, but powerless to stop me because we were on federal property, and he turned me over to the Sergeant at Arms.... Lazy fucker didn't want to do the paperwork, and thought that the MP's would be hardasses and bust me. But I don't drink much anymore, and never drive after even a sip of alcohol. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 3:14:45 AM EDT
[#48]
same here in TX, but he was careful. the keys were out, and he actually got out of the vehicle to give the camera a better view. according to john, the only possible difficulty was the first 10 min, and symptom display therein. in situ, he blamed them on his stomach having problems accepting 8-10 oz of warm, straight vodka, and the prosecutor couldn't show otherwise. [edit to insert quote] |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 5:44:00 AM EDT
[#49]
FST's are not "pass/fail"
You are looking for indicators of impairment. Things drunk people do that sober people dont do on the same tests. |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 7:07:59 AM EDT
[#50]
Also, what is PI and PC? I'm not familiar with those two. |
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