9mm vs .45 AGAIN!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 9mm vs .45 AGAIN! (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 1/1/2006 3:55:35 PM EDT

Actually no, there was a thread about it, and I posted one hell of a good rant n wanted to brag

EMT since 2000. I've seen a lot of people shot. LOTS shot for shot a .45 does more damage. Bodies are torn into shreads better by .45 JHP than they are 9mm JHP. Bodies are also NOT ballistic gelatin, OR wet newspaper, OR trees. They are flesh of different strengths and thicknesses, and bone, and liquid and in some cases empty cavities. Given the choice between only .45 and 9mm I wouldnt worry for a second about using the excuse that if you get a 9 you can train more,
You can spend over 5 bills on a good gun but can't afford to train enough with it?

Since when is your life not worth the 3 bucks a box extra to train with the same amount of ammo?

Do you really want to say that "I'll take a 9 cause I get 15 or 17 or 18 rounds and I can shoot em more times so it does more damage"?

Again, train more and you'll only have to shoot them 2-3 times and not worry about the inevitable lawsuit that is accompanied by the headline "gun nut shoots jackass robber 17 times"

We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

Seriously, the only excuse for not shooting a .45 over something less effective is that you can't get back on target very quick with the .45 for follow up shots. That's why I don't shooter a .45, well that, and shit happens and I want more rounds. I shoot a .40. And before all you people go "99% of gunfights happen at less than 21 feet and have less than 3 rounds fired" Your right. So am I when I say that 99% of people that carry will never be involved in a gun fight. If your gonna be prepared do it right. Train like your going to war tommorrow, carry a good reliable gun like a sig, HK, or Glock, train some more. Get 10 mags and randomly pick them up and load different amounts of ammo in them and go shoot a uspsa style course and practice reloading as fast as you can. Practice clearing jams constantly. Practice all this so much you don't have to think about it when it happens, you just react.

Practice the draw, double tap, holster, draw, double tap, holster, till you see a target, decide to shoot it, and then your hand draws your eyes and hands coordinate and shoot the target without any real thought on your part. You do this, with stress added, and hit em with 2 in the chest and one in the head in less than a 1.4 or 1.5 seconds consistantly, and have a gun that you know will go bang everytime, and a bullet that inflicts the max amount of damage, add a HUGE dose of luck, and you might, just might survive the gunfight that I pray none of us ever have to get into.

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:24:36 PM EDT

[#1]

Dusty_C,

I don't think this issue will ever be settled. Even I can't settle it: I carry a 9X18 Makarov, Glock 19 and Sig P220 .45cal. depending on the situation.

I do believe that the wound channel has a greater volume of tissue destruction for the .45 vs. the 9mm. The question is whether that difference is enough to warrant greater recoil, etc.

If you haven't done so already, an excellent read on this subject:

The topics covered in Bullet Penetration include physiological and psychological effects in incapacitation from wound trauma, modeling of bullet penetration, and modeling of bullet expansion. The realities associated with the desired "one shot stop" and the ignorance and/or fraud in "combat data" claims are discussed in detail. The primary focus is on handgun ammunition, but the principles and many of the results are also applicable to rifle ammunition. The book has 307 pages, including 69 pages of bullet photographs and graphs of test results.

www.firearmstactical.com/bulletpenetration.htm

Either buy the book or get the first printing through inter-library loan. You won't regret it.

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:25:58 PM EDT

[#2]

just use the .40 and be done with it.

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:36:01 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
just use the .40 and be done with it.

The 40 short and weak? Nah, 10mm Norma...

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:39:32 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
just use the .40 and be done with it.

Glock 22 with 2 extra hi caps on my belt TYVM!

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:46:58 PM EDT

[#5]

If you've been an EMT for a while and have seen "lots" of gunshot wounds then you can attest to the fact that no handgun round "drops" anyone unless it is a cranial vault shot.

Like I said before....NO handgun round will instantly stop anyone. Simple physic will dictate that the velocity required to move a bullet large enough to cause instant "stopping" simply precludes it from being a "handgun round". Not even a .308 will gurantee an instant stop unless it is a cranial vault shot. As far as flesh "damage" after the fact....I could care less. I'm not concerned with causing "nasty wounds"....I'm concerned with accurate shots on target in multiple locations to force a "shut down" from mulitple trauma points (unless of course I can get a head shot).

That being said I must disagree with your presumption that you will "only have to shoot them 2-3 times". I'm not dictating the "shoot till slidelock" at all costs mentality. Just be aware that even several rounds from a handgun may not be enough to stop a determined aggressor until you hit them in the head.

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:50:12 PM EDT

[#6]

I'll stick with my .25acp, thanks. Nobody has ever improved on that beast. I shot down a 737 with it just last week.

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:51:46 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
If you've been an EMT for a while and have seen "lots" of gunshot wounds then you can attest to the fact that no handgun round "drops" anyone unless it is a cranial vault shot.

Like I said before....NO handgun round will instantly stop anyone. Simple physic will dictate that the velocity required to move a bullet large enough to cause instant "stopping" simply precludes it from being a "handgun round". Not even a .308 will gurantee an instant stop unless it is a cranial vault shot.

That being said I must disagree with your presumption that you will "only have to shoot them 2-3 times". I'm not dictating the "shoot till slidelock" at all costs mentality. Just be aware that even several rounds from a handgun may not be enough to stop a determined aggressor until you hit them in the head.

That's why I specified 2 in the chest and one in the head. I have been on a scene on standby where a cop shot one person in the chest one time with a 9mm and he was in PEA by the time I got the electrodes on him no more than a minute and 15 after the shot. JHP through the Aorta, BUT he still got 2 shots off AFTER the cop shot him. So I do agree that you need to put one in the head. What I was saying is that if you can put 2 through the heart and one in their head it's MUCH easier to explain in court than shooting till slide lock. Another benefit of .45s. Shooting till slide lock in most is only 8 rounds.

Posted: 1/1/2006 4:57:33 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
just use the .40 and be done with it.

The 40 short and weak? Nah, 10mm Norma...

Ok, stand 10 yards away and take one for the team.

We'll see how weak it really is.

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:01:06 PM EDT

[#9]

I believe this is the first time I've ever heard an argument in favor of low-cap mags.

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:02:07 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
just use the .40 and be done with it.

The 40 short and weak? Nah, 10mm Norma...

Ok, stand 10 yards away and take one for the team.
We'll see how weak it really is.

Only if you let me use a 22 short on you first...

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:02:40 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I believe this is the first time I've ever heard an argument in favor of low-cap mags.

In a sick n twisted way it makes sense though.

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:04:04 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe this is the first time I've ever heard an argument in favor of low-cap mags.
In a sick n twisted way it makes sense though.

Rounds are like tokens in the arcade. The more you have, the longer you can play.

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:06:25 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe this is the first time I've ever heard an argument in favor of low-cap mags.
In a sick n twisted way it makes sense though.

Rounds are like tokens in the arcade. The more you have, the longer you can play.

46 on my belt n another hundred in the car

500 for the trunk gun to

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:08:31 PM EDT

[#14]

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:09:34 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
just use the .40 and be done with it.

The 40 short and weak? Nah, 10mm Norma...

Ok, stand 10 yards away and take one for the team.
We'll see how weak it really is.

Brutal!! Just brutal I tell ya!

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:23:07 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
just use the .40 and be done with it.

The 40 short and weak? Nah, 10mm Norma...

Ok, stand 10 yards away and take one for the team.
We'll see how weak it really is.

He prolly an't proff enough to carry the forty, BANG !!!!!!!!!!

That guy didn't seem in too much pain now did he???

Shot placement!!!!!

Bob

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:25:52 PM EDT

[#17]

I want a 9x39, thatll kick a .45's ass!

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:30:43 PM EDT

[#18]

Don't sweat what you carry, just carry.

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:34:32 PM EDT

[#19]

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:35:33 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
just use the .40 and be done with it.

The 40 short and weak? Nah, 10mm Norma...

Do you mean like this?

Posted: 1/1/2006 5:58:43 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe this is the first time I've ever heard an argument in favor of low-cap mags.
In a sick n twisted way it makes sense though.

thats why I carry 17rd 45 mags best of both worlds and im a big guy so no prob with concealment or weight..LOL

Posted: 1/1/2006 6:03:42 PM EDT

[#22]

Your all just a bunch a pussies.
Me?
I carry 2 guns, Mr Leftie and Mr Rightie. Booya. Sometimes for added punch I carry a roll of quarters for extra weight too.

Pff. Hiding behind a gun. What kind of men are you.

Posted: 1/1/2006 6:34:39 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
I want a 9x39, thatll kick a .45's ass!

The 9X19 doesn't lack penetrating power just mass!!!

Nice try though! The reason people prefer the 40 S&W is because it can use up to a 200 grain bullet!! With about the same great Vel that a 9X19 delivers!!

The .45acp will give you the same penetration with a 230 grain bullet(less Vel)!

You could develope a 9X54 in a pistol,and it will zip right through threw you just like a 9X17,9X18,9X19,or even your 9X39!

But you will have a problem the 357 mag had,lots of penetration little mass!!!

Bob

Posted: 1/1/2006 6:51:39 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Actually no, there was a thread about it, and I posted one hell of a good rant n wanted to brag

EMT since 2000. I've seen a lot of people shot. LOTS shot for shot a .45 does more damage. Bodies are torn into shreads better by .45 JHP than they are 9mm JHP. Bodies are also NOT ballistic gelatin, OR wet newspaper, OR trees. They are flesh of different strengths and thicknesses, and bone, and liquid and in some cases empty cavities. Given the choice between only .45 and 9mm I wouldnt worry for a second about using the excuse that if you get a 9 you can train more,
You can spend over 5 bills on a good gun but can't afford to train enough with it?

Since when is your life not worth the 3 bucks a box extra to train with the same amount of ammo?

Do you really want to say that "I'll take a 9 cause I get 15 or 17 or 18 rounds and I can shoot em more times so it does more damage"?

Again, train more and you'll only have to shoot them 2-3 times and not worry about the inevitable lawsuit that is accompanied by the headline "gun nut shoots jackass robber 17 times"

We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

Seriously, the only excuse for not shooting a .45 over something less effective is that you can't get back on target very quick with the .45 for follow up shots. That's why I don't shooter a .45, well that, and shit happens and I want more rounds. I shoot a .40. And before all you people go "99% of gunfights happen at less than 21 feet and have less than 3 rounds fired" Your right. So am I when I say that 99% of people that carry will never be involved in a gun fight. If your gonna be prepared do it right. Train like your going to war tommorrow, carry a good reliable gun like a sig, HK, or Glock, train some more. Get 10 mags and randomly pick them up and load different amounts of ammo in them and go shoot a uspsa style course and practice reloading as fast as you can. Practice clearing jams constantly. Practice all this so much you don't have to think about it when it happens, you just react.

Practice the draw, double tap, holster, draw, double tap, holster, till you see a target, decide to shoot it, and then your hand draws your eyes and hands coordinate and shoot the target without any real thought on your part. You do this, with stress added, and hit em with 2 in the chest and one in the head in less than a 1.4 or 1.5 seconds consistantly, and have a gun that you know will go bang everytime, and a bullet that inflicts the max amount of damage, add a HUGE dose of luck, and you might, just might survive the gunfight that I pray none of us ever have to get into.

Ya know, I'm a paramedic with 17 years experience, and I have to say that my experience is just a skosh different than yours. I find that the trauma surgeons and pathologists are right when they say thay can't determine caliber from looking at the wound track. Mind you, I'm not arguing caliber, just your citation of 5 years experience as an EMT as supporting evidence.

You run as a basic? Tiered response or what? Doesn't your service consider GSWs to be an ALS kind'a thing? I'd imagine you have to be with a high volume service to have acrued such experience with GSWs.

Posted: 1/1/2006 7:08:30 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/45acp.jpg

+1

Posted: 1/1/2006 7:10:01 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Ya know, I'm a paramedic with 17 years experience, and I have to say that my experience is just a skosh different than yours. I find that the trauma surgeons and pathologists are right when they say thay can't determine caliber from looking at the wound track. Mind you, I'm not arguing caliber, just your citation of 5 years experience as an EMT as supporting evidence.

You run as a basic? Doesn't your service consider GSWs to be an ALS kind'a thing?

I think you're wrong. The wound track of the .25cal is only 2 inches long!

But seriously, the differences between 9mm, 40cal. and .45cal are not significant enough for people to make some of the claims they do.

Posted: 1/1/2006 7:35:44 PM EDT

[#27]

I know they'll all kill ya with proper bullet placement (although that .25 will make ya mad for a while first), but I feel more comfortable with .45acp than any other round. Most of my handgun shooting has been 1911 .45s and a Ruger Mark II .22lr. The movement needed to take them off safe and fire is the same, which I like. Mag release and chamber clearing are different, but I shoot both enough to stay familiar with both. (I also don't use the Mark II as a carry gun, but I wouldn't be afraid to if it was loaded with Stingers).
I'd like to get something small to carry during the summer, because it's hard to conceal my .45 with light clothing. Even though I don't think much of the .380, I'd like to have a Walther PPK/S as a summer gun. I'm on more of a Jennings J22 budget though.

I think it's like so many other things, that many different ways will work and we have to find what works best for each of us.

Posted: 1/2/2006 5:59:36 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Actually no, there was a thread about it, and I posted one hell of a good rant n wanted to brag

EMT since 2000. I've seen a lot of people shot. LOTS shot for shot a .45 does more damage. Bodies are torn into shreads better by .45 JHP than they are 9mm JHP. Bodies are also NOT ballistic gelatin, OR wet newspaper, OR trees. They are flesh of different strengths and thicknesses, and bone, and liquid and in some cases empty cavities. Given the choice between only .45 and 9mm I wouldnt worry for a second about using the excuse that if you get a 9 you can train more,
You can spend over 5 bills on a good gun but can't afford to train enough with it?

Since when is your life not worth the 3 bucks a box extra to train with the same amount of ammo?

Do you really want to say that "I'll take a 9 cause I get 15 or 17 or 18 rounds and I can shoot em more times so it does more damage"?

Again, train more and you'll only have to shoot them 2-3 times and not worry about the inevitable lawsuit that is accompanied by the headline "gun nut shoots jackass robber 17 times"

We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

Seriously, the only excuse for not shooting a .45 over something less effective is that you can't get back on target very quick with the .45 for follow up shots. That's why I don't shooter a .45, well that, and shit happens and I want more rounds. I shoot a .40. And before all you people go "99% of gunfights happen at less than 21 feet and have less than 3 rounds fired" Your right. So am I when I say that 99% of people that carry will never be involved in a gun fight. If your gonna be prepared do it right. Train like your going to war tommorrow, carry a good reliable gun like a sig, HK, or Glock, train some more. Get 10 mags and randomly pick them up and load different amounts of ammo in them and go shoot a uspsa style course and practice reloading as fast as you can. Practice clearing jams constantly. Practice all this so much you don't have to think about it when it happens, you just react.

Practice the draw, double tap, holster, draw, double tap, holster, till you see a target, decide to shoot it, and then your hand draws your eyes and hands coordinate and shoot the target without any real thought on your part. You do this, with stress added, and hit em with 2 in the chest and one in the head in less than a 1.4 or 1.5 seconds consistantly, and have a gun that you know will go bang everytime, and a bullet that inflicts the max amount of damage, add a HUGE dose of luck, and you might, just might survive the gunfight that I pray none of us ever have to get into.

Ya know, I'm a paramedic with 17 years experience, and I have to say that my experience is just a skosh different than yours. I find that the trauma surgeons and pathologists are right when they say thay can't determine caliber from looking at the wound track. Mind you, I'm not arguing caliber, just your citation of 5 years experience as an EMT as supporting evidence.

You run as a basic? Tiered response or what? Doesn't your service consider GSWs to be an ALS kind'a thing? I'd imagine you have to be with a high volume service to have acrued such experience with GSWs.

I run rescue now, I did run on an ambulance service that had a B or an I on each truck with a medic. I've seen people just as dead with a .22 as I have an SKS or a .45 but 1 of the only 2 times I've ever seen the massive exit wound that we all hear about all the time was a .45, the other was a 12 guage point blank to the head.

But bigger wounds, with increased bleeding and harder to treat chest wounds are things I've noticed with bigger cal rounds. Not scientific, just one guys personal experience. It'd be VERY hard to convince me that there is no difference in real life in different caliber rounds like the gelatin says.

Posted: 1/2/2006 6:18:57 AM EDT

[#29]

We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

Posted: 1/2/2006 6:22:56 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

I choose to cover that 1.43 extra mm by shooting one additional round for each 7th shot while the .45 guys are fumbing for their next mag and I'm not even half empty. That gives me the same coverage as a .45, with double the ammunition capacity.

Posted: 1/2/2006 6:50:25 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I want a 9x39, thatll kick a .45's ass!

The 9X19 doesn't lack penetrating power just mass!!!

Nice try though! The reason people prefer the 40 S&W is because it can use up to a 200 grain bullet!! With about the same great Vel that a 9X19 delivers!!

The .45acp will give you the same penetration with a 230 grain bullet(less Vel)!

You could develope a 9X54 in a pistol,and it will zip right through threw you just like a 9X17,9X18,9X19,or even your 9X39!

But you will have a problem the 357 mag had,lots of penetration little mass!!!

Bob

97% one shot stops in hundreds of police shootings and its a problem? man you need to put down the crack pipe.

Posted: 1/2/2006 6:57:47 AM EDT

[#32]

10mm all the way.

Posted: 1/2/2006 7:15:00 AM EDT

[#33]

Old carry.

Now carry

Funny story was that I told a friend that I always carried two guns .His wife asked how many I had on now.I had three.First pic is .45, .32,and .22.second pic is same .45, 9mm,and .380.

I love my .45.

Posted: 1/2/2006 7:21:51 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Actually no, there was a thread about it, and I posted one hell of a good rant n wanted to brag

EMT since 2000. I've seen a lot of people shot. LOTS shot for shot a .45 does more damage. Bodies are torn into shreads better by .45 JHP than they are 9mm JHP. Bodies are also NOT ballistic gelatin, OR wet newspaper, OR trees. They are flesh of different strengths and thicknesses, and bone, and liquid and in some cases empty cavities. Given the choice between only .45 and 9mm I wouldnt worry for a second about using the excuse that if you get a 9 you can train more,
You can spend over 5 bills on a good gun but can't afford to train enough with it?

Since when is your life not worth the 3 bucks a box extra to train with the same amount of ammo?

Do you really want to say that "I'll take a 9 cause I get 15 or 17 or 18 rounds and I can shoot em more times so it does more damage"?

Again, train more and you'll only have to shoot them 2-3 times and not worry about the inevitable lawsuit that is accompanied by the headline "gun nut shoots jackass robber 17 times"

We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

Seriously, the only excuse for not shooting a .45 over something less effective is that you can't get back on target very quick with the .45 for follow up shots. That's why I don't shooter a .45, well that, and shit happens and I want more rounds. I shoot a .40. And before all you people go "99% of gunfights happen at less than 21 feet and have less than 3 rounds fired" Your right. So am I when I say that 99% of people that carry will never be involved in a gun fight. If your gonna be prepared do it right. Train like your going to war tommorrow, carry a good reliable gun like a sig, HK, or Glock, train some more. Get 10 mags and randomly pick them up and load different amounts of ammo in them and go shoot a uspsa style course and practice reloading as fast as you can. Practice clearing jams constantly. Practice all this so much you don't have to think about it when it happens, you just react.

Practice the draw, double tap, holster, draw, double tap, holster, till you see a target, decide to shoot it, and then your hand draws your eyes and hands coordinate and shoot the target without any real thought on your part. You do this, with stress added, and hit em with 2 in the chest and one in the head in less than a 1.4 or 1.5 seconds consistantly, and have a gun that you know will go bang everytime, and a bullet that inflicts the max amount of damage, add a HUGE dose of luck, and you might, just might survive the gunfight that I pray none of us ever have to get into.

Ok, so let me get this straight......

Having 5 years expierence as an EMT and seeing a couple of people who got shot qualifies you to render an "expert" opinion on ballistics/gunfighting.

All those deaths examined by studies from the Federal Government and private sector are wrong, as are all the ballistic tests compiled.

Posted: 1/2/2006 7:23:16 AM EDT

[#35]

I have the perfect solution to the 9mm vs .45 ACP debate:

CARRY THE .45!

Posted: 1/2/2006 8:03:56 AM EDT

[#36]

Apologies in advance to the emotional followers of the .45, but no practical handgun caliber is the Hammer of Thor.

One of my shooting buddies is an ER doc, and we've discussed this at length. He says nobody can tell the difference between the wounds of any of the major handgun calibers. When I press him as to what works best, he says "a shotgun".

I don't think any of us can improve on the "one-shot stop" study of Evan Marshall. His conclusion was: "...it doesn't make much difference whether you select a 9mm, .40 caliber, a .357 caliber, or a .45 caliber as long a you use the proper ammunition..."

Posted: 1/3/2006 9:05:10 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Actually no, there was a thread about it, and I posted one hell of a good rant n wanted to brag

EMT since 2000. I've seen a lot of people shot. LOTS shot for shot a .45 does more damage. Bodies are torn into shreads better by .45 JHP than they are 9mm JHP. Bodies are also NOT ballistic gelatin, OR wet newspaper, OR trees. They are flesh of different strengths and thicknesses, and bone, and liquid and in some cases empty cavities. Given the choice between only .45 and 9mm I wouldnt worry for a second about using the excuse that if you get a 9 you can train more,
You can spend over 5 bills on a good gun but can't afford to train enough with it?

Since when is your life not worth the 3 bucks a box extra to train with the same amount of ammo?

Do you really want to say that "I'll take a 9 cause I get 15 or 17 or 18 rounds and I can shoot em more times so it does more damage"?

Again, train more and you'll only have to shoot them 2-3 times and not worry about the inevitable lawsuit that is accompanied by the headline "gun nut shoots jackass robber 17 times"

We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

Seriously, the only excuse for not shooting a .45 over something less effective is that you can't get back on target very quick with the .45 for follow up shots. That's why I don't shooter a .45, well that, and shit happens and I want more rounds. I shoot a .40. And before all you people go "99% of gunfights happen at less than 21 feet and have less than 3 rounds fired" Your right. So am I when I say that 99% of people that carry will never be involved in a gun fight. If your gonna be prepared do it right. Train like your going to war tommorrow, carry a good reliable gun like a sig, HK, or Glock, train some more. Get 10 mags and randomly pick them up and load different amounts of ammo in them and go shoot a uspsa style course and practice reloading as fast as you can. Practice clearing jams constantly. Practice all this so much you don't have to think about it when it happens, you just react.

Practice the draw, double tap, holster, draw, double tap, holster, till you see a target, decide to shoot it, and then your hand draws your eyes and hands coordinate and shoot the target without any real thought on your part. You do this, with stress added, and hit em with 2 in the chest and one in the head in less than a 1.4 or 1.5 seconds consistantly, and have a gun that you know will go bang everytime, and a bullet that inflicts the max amount of damage, add a HUGE dose of luck, and you might, just might survive the gunfight that I pray none of us ever have to get into.

Ok, so let me get this straight......

Having 5 years expierence as an EMT and seeing a couple of people who got shot qualifies you to render an "expert" opinion on ballistics/gunfighting.

All those deaths examined by studies from the Federal Government and private sector are wrong, as are all the ballistic tests compiled.

How many live people did the government shoot for those tests. As I said above, humans and ballistics gel are NOT the same thing.

Posted: 1/3/2006 9:13:14 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Apologies in advance to the emotional followers of the .45, but no practical handgun caliber is the Hammer of Thor.

One of my shooting buddies is an ER doc, and we've discussed this at length. He says nobody can tell the difference between the wounds of any of the major handgun calibers. When I press him as to what works best, he says "a shotgun".

I don't think any of us can improve on the "one-shot stop" study of Evan Marshall. His conclusion was: [size=5]"...it doesn't make much difference whether you select a 9mm, .40 caliber, a .357 caliber, or a .45 caliber as long a you use the proper ammunition..."

And the truth will set you free, in addition to proper shot placement of course.

Posted: 1/3/2006 9:15:19 AM EDT

[#39]

Who is that retired border patrol guy that has probably been in more actual shootouts than anyone else alive?

He has used many different calibers including 45ACP and 9mm. Apparently he got stuck with a 38 in a lot of the shootouts but his favorite is 9mm.
He has a book out that is supposed to be awesome.

It was Col Charlie Askins
Here, I found an excerpt:

In trying to think of a person who has been in more gunfights than anyone else that I am aware of, I thought of Col Charlie Askins who after numerous gunfights on the Mexico border said this in his book "Pistols and Revolvers": "The 9mm is my favorite loading for defensive use. There are 10 million infantrymen who fire the round either in pistol or submachinegun. It has been the death of more of the enemy than all of the other handgun loadings put together." Col. Askins goes on to say, "There is a tendency to disparage the the 9mm as a full bore, man size defensive caliber. This campaign to discredit this fine cartridge is hardly borne out by history. Designed in 1902, the 9mm has seen more action, been in at the kill on more occasions, and is today carried by more armies that all of the other military calibers put together."
It is interesting to note that Askins describes many of his fights as involving the .45 acp but a good many of his victories were achieved using the .38 Special. Go figure.
I also like what Ken Hackathorn in his "Tactical Advantage" article said a couple of years ago, "As a matter of fact, there is quite a bit of evidence around showing a superior 9mm round will often perform as well as, or better than, many popular .45 acp cartridges. Imagine that."

Posted: 1/3/2006 5:38:32 PM EDT

[#40]

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I want a 9x39, thatll kick a .45's ass!

The 9X19 doesn't lack penetrating power just mass!!!

Nice try though! The reason people prefer the 40 S&W is because it can use up to a 200 grain bullet!! With about the same great Vel that a 9X19 delivers!!

The .45acp will give you the same penetration with a 230 grain bullet(less Vel)!

You could develope a 9X54 in a pistol,and it will zip right through threw you just like a 9X17,9X18,9X19,or even your 9X39!

But you will have a problem the 357 mag had,lots of penetration little mass!!!

Bob

97% one shot stops in hundreds of police shootings and its a problem? man you need to put down the crack pipe.

What year are you talking about the 97% one shot(haha he said one shot) stops are you talking about????

The .357 158 grain JSP makes a very good back up while deer or black bear hunting(where you need really deep bone breaking penetrating round)other than that it's just old school too much!!!

A 147 grain JHP in nine mil will be better suited for two legged varmits!!!

No crack pipe here son,and I would rather use a blackhawk in .45 colt as a one stop than my .357 mag!!

And at 800 fps (about the speed of sound)260 grains of slow moving copper jacketed lead will get your upmost attention!!!

Bob

Posted: 1/3/2006 5:49:27 PM EDT

[#41]

i was working EMS when the wonder 9 revolution was ramping up.

I saw 9mm victims walk to my rig. I saw 45 victims walk to my rig. NO handgun short of a 44mag is an effective round against a human sized target short of a CNS hit.

that said i did notice a percieved physc effect for larger caliber GSW's. they seemed to beleive they were in much worse shape than they actually were. Can't cite anything scientific but there was a definant mental issue if they new what they were hit by.

oh yea.... the 45 guys squirmed in pain more

Posted: 1/3/2006 5:53:07 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
What year are you talking about the 97% one shot(haha he said one shot) stops are you talking about????

The .357 158 grain JSP makes a very good back up while deer or black bear hunting(where you need really deep bone breaking penetrating round)other than that it's just old school too much!!!

A 147 grain JHP in nine mil will be better suited for two legged varmits!!!

No crack pipe here son,and I would rather use a blackhawk in .45 colt as a one stop than my .357 mag!!

And at 800 fps (about the speed of sound)260 grains of slow moving copper jacketed lead will get your upmost attention!!!

Evan Marshall: "The .357 Magnum was the first choice for decades by those officers who were dissatisfied with the performance levels of the available .38 Special loads. It was also the first choice of many highway patrol units who were concerned about penetration of motor vehicles. It has produced the best stopping power results of any handgun caliber."

Speed of sound is closer to 1,100 fps, depending on temperature.

Posted: 1/3/2006 5:53:24 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Ya know, I'm a paramedic with 17 years experience, and I have to say that my experience is just a skosh different than yours. I find that the trauma surgeons and pathologists are right when they say thay can't determine caliber from looking at the wound track. .

+1

Posted: 1/3/2006 6:02:20 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
If you've been an EMT for a while and have seen "lots" of gunshot wounds then you can attest to the fact that no handgun round "drops" anyone unless it is a cranial vault shot.

Like I said before....NO handgun round will instantly stop anyone. Simple physic will dictate that the velocity required to move a bullet large enough to cause instant "stopping" simply precludes it from being a "handgun round". Not even a .308 will gurantee an instant stop unless it is a cranial vault shot. As far as flesh "damage" after the fact....I could care less. I'm not concerned with causing "nasty wounds"....I'm concerned with accurate shots on target in multiple locations to force a "shut down" from mulitple trauma points (unless of course I can get a head shot).

That being said I must disagree with your presumption that you will "only have to shoot them 2-3 times". I'm not dictating the "shoot till slidelock" at all costs mentality. Just be aware that even several rounds from a handgun may not be enough to stop a determined aggressor until you hit them in the head.

About the cranial vault shot....my buddy is a paramed and went on a suicide call once....dude had put a .45 through his dome...my buddy and partner got ready to basically throw a blanket over him and toss him on the gurney once they saw that half his skull was missing and the brain tissue mixed with an array of other crap was clearly visible.

Then my friend heard the gurgle....dude was still alive and breathing....they patched his head together as best they could and got him to the hospital where he made a recovery....not a full one...but the guy is still alive....

No matter with what or where you hit someone....there are no gurantees..

Posted: 1/3/2006 6:10:38 PM EDT

[#45]

.45 ACP, 9mm...neither are worth shit! 5.56 is the only caliber which can ever be used in any defensive scenario with the expectation of surviving the encounter. If you are in a defensive enagagement of any kind and you find yourself with anything other than an AR-15 in 5.56 then you should immediately use it to club yourself in penance for not have your AR-15. I would have recommended shooting yourself with whatever it was that you had which was not an AR-15, but that would be of no avail since all other calibers bounce right off of you.

Posted: 1/3/2006 6:14:17 PM EDT

[#46]

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Actually no, there was a thread about it, and I posted one hell of a good rant n wanted to brag

EMT since 2000. I've seen a lot of people shot. LOTS shot for shot a .45 does more damage. Bodies are torn into shreads better by .45 JHP than they are 9mm JHP. Bodies are also NOT ballistic gelatin, OR wet newspaper, OR trees. They are flesh of different strengths and thicknesses, and bone, and liquid and in some cases empty cavities. Given the choice between only .45 and 9mm I wouldnt worry for a second about using the excuse that if you get a 9 you can train more,
You can spend over 5 bills on a good gun but can't afford to train enough with it?

Since when is your life not worth the 3 bucks a box extra to train with the same amount of ammo?

Do you really want to say that "I'll take a 9 cause I get 15 or 17 or 18 rounds and I can shoot em more times so it does more damage"?

Again, train more and you'll only have to shoot them 2-3 times and not worry about the inevitable lawsuit that is accompanied by the headline "gun nut shoots jackass robber 17 times"

We've all heard, "if that bullet was one more millimeter to the right you'd be dead" Don't you want that millimeter covered?

Seriously, the only excuse for not shooting a .45 over something less effective is that you can't get back on target very quick with the .45 for follow up shots. That's why I don't shooter a .45, well that, and shit happens and I want more rounds. I shoot a .40. And before all you people go "99% of gunfights happen at less than 21 feet and have less than 3 rounds fired" Your right. So am I when I say that 99% of people that carry will never be involved in a gun fight. If your gonna be prepared do it right. Train like your going to war tommorrow, carry a good reliable gun like a sig, HK, or Glock, train some more. Get 10 mags and randomly pick them up and load different amounts of ammo in them and go shoot a uspsa style course and practice reloading as fast as you can. Practice clearing jams constantly. Practice all this so much you don't have to think about it when it happens, you just react.

Practice the draw, double tap, holster, draw, double tap, holster, till you see a target, decide to shoot it, and then your hand draws your eyes and hands coordinate and shoot the target without any real thought on your part. You do this, with stress added, and hit em with 2 in the chest and one in the head in less than a 1.4 or 1.5 seconds consistantly, and have a gun that you know will go bang everytime, and a bullet that inflicts the max amount of damage, add a HUGE dose of luck, and you might, just might survive the gunfight that I pray none of us ever have to get into.

Ok, so let me get this straight......

Having 5 years expierence as an EMT and seeing a couple of people who got shot qualifies you to render an "expert" opinion on ballistics/gunfighting.

All those deaths examined by studies from the Federal Government and private sector are wrong, as are all the ballistic tests compiled.

How many live people did the government shoot for those tests. As I said above, humans and ballistics gel are NOT the same thing.

Why would you ask such a stupid question? There are only 4 accecptable media for testing the lethality of a round:

1. Jello
2. Water Bottles
3. Drywall
4. A loaf of bread

Real life shooting scenarios contain variables which cannot be reproduced when shooting any of the afore mentioned testing media and therefore cannot be used to determine how a bullet will perform in a real life shooting scenario.

Posted: 1/3/2006 6:18:15 PM EDT

[#47]

Who fuckin cares!

Posted: 1/3/2006 6:19:26 PM EDT

[#48]

.45

Posted: 1/4/2006 7:15:12 AM EDT

[#49]

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SNIP.

Why would you ask such a stupid question? There are only 4 accecptable media for testing the lethality of a round:

1. Jello
2. Water Bottles
3. Drywall
4. A loaf of bread

Real life shooting scenarios contain variables which cannot be reproduced when shooting any of the afore mentioned testing media and therefore cannot be used to determine how a bullet will perform in a real life shooting scenario.

I'm judging on bullets that have impacted actual bodies and the damage I've seen done. I could be wrong, take 300 people seeing the same thing, and you'll get 320 different points of view on it. But it's my personal opinion.

Posted: 1/4/2006 7:20:40 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/adairtd/45acp.jpg

I like commonality of ammo with my SMG.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 9mm vs .45 AGAIN! (Page 1 of 2)

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