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Posted: 12/24/2005 7:43:30 AM EDT
[#1]
... 1911
... 1911 ... 45ACP |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 7:46:14 AM EDT
[#2]
Most instructors will mold training to context.
What are you training for? If it's personal defense or whatever...They reccomend you use what you like, or have. Overseas training? Whatever you'll be issued (Usually 9mm Glock or Beretta 92 series/AR Platform/AK Platform) 9mm, like it or not, is the most popular cartridge in the world. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 7:48:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Depends on where you go. Gunsite is very 1911/.45ACP oriented. Tactical Response is Glock/9mm oriented.
My best advice is to pick a style of training that you like and that suits you, and stick with instruction in that style. For instance, I prefer the 1911/.45/Weaver style, so I am a Gunsite graduate as well as training under Pat Rogers. That is not to denigrate the Tactical Response style, it's just that my experience is that it's better to be very proficient in one style instead of confusing your muscle memory. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:00:35 AM EDT
[#4]
When I went to Gunsite some years back, all the staff I was in contact with carried 1911's. 6 out of 10 of us in the class had 1911's two had Glocks(a 23 and 17), 1 Beretta 92, and one had a Sig 220. Now for the non-firsthand stuff, in most all the gunrags, when you see pictures of Thunder Ranch staff, they are usually sportin' 1911's. It's no secret that James Yeager from Tactical Response is very pro Glock, to the point that I've heard that he rides students that bring 1911's (heresay only). Some friends attended a Blackwater, and they said the leaning there was toward Glock.
In my class, 1 of the 1911's experienced several FTF's that were linked to two magazines, the G23 user experienced several slide locks with rounds in the mag still,(he had an aftermarket slide stop). The G17 ran along without a hitch as did the Sig. The Beretta as well, ran very good. Another of the 1911's just wouldn't run at all the second day, and the user switched to his spare pistol. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:03:29 AM EDT
[#5]
Black Water is Glock, Bushmaster carbines, SIR mount and eotech.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:04:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Blackwater. The instructors used Glock 9mm. They love them. but then again, they also used a SIR rail system...
I used a 1911A1 .45 ACP |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:05:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Took Glocks and Bushmaster and all held up just fine. I think any reputable weapon in good repair would suit you just fine.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:07:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Glock 17 or Steel Framed 5" 1911A1 in .45acp
Clint Smith, Pat Rogers and Louis Awerbuck are well respected. Personally i would avoid Gabe Suarez, Bill Murphy, Chuck Taylor. YMMV.
Most will recommend 9mm or 45acp. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:08:47 AM EDT
[#9]
I would recomend the 1911A1. For training I belive the low capacity is a plus.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:10:11 AM EDT
[#10]
I attended Thunder Ranch 3 times, Defensive Handgun I & II, and Urban Rifle I. Any well-made quality handgun should hold up for the courses. You will shoot around 1,500 to 2,000 rounds in a week long course.
Clint's only requirement is a pistol of at least 9mm caliber. In one course, a man and his wife showed up with a Bersa .380 for her. It was the only pistol I saw go belly up that week. He finally went to town and bought her a 9mm Glock. Clint and Heidi both carry a 1911, but his instructors carried a variety of pistols and calibers. Mostly 1911s, Glocks, and Sigs. I carried my Glock 34 in 9mm and also used my Kimber 1911 for a while. Both worked great. They drill you on using different pistols (in case you have to pick one up and use it). A common drill had you setting up a failure (non-engaged magazine, stove pipe, failure to extract, etc) with your pistol and lay it on the ground. Then you backed up 10 yards and all moved over 3 stations and at the command, ran up and picked up the pistol in front of you and tried to fire it. When it failed to fire, you had to do a quick clearence drill and get back in the game. Very interesting drill. Don't miss an opportunity to attend one of these great schools.  |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:10:25 AM EDT
[#11]
Thunder Ranch: 1911. Well, one can't expect from an oldtimer (Clint Smith) to use anything else, except 1911... 
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:15:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Solid advice. TFTT and Max Joseph is 9mm/AR oriented. I use a .40 Walther myself. I'm usually the oddball in class
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:24:28 AM EDT
[#13]
This is as much due to "business" as it is a weapon system being "better/not as good/worse" I'm certain the Blackwater weapons contract solicitation/competition was fiercely competitive. I would recommend - handgun-wise, the one you have the most time with and confidence in. As long as it isn't under-powered. (.32 or .25 for example) |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:24:49 AM EDT
[#14]
You will see a general split between 1911s and Glocks with a few Sig's thrown in here and there. Generally, the real experienced guys will have 1911s with the cops and newer shooters having the Glocks. Sigs are usually someones issue pistol. There are exceptions.
I've seen 1911s have problems, Glcoks have problems (yes, this does actually happen,) and Sigs have problem. Generally, all the quality pistols work fine. Usually the user has done something to cause the problem. They require that you bring a pistol that is 9mm or above. Bring what you are comfortable with and what you use/ carry. Don't how up with some shit you don't know how to use, have tested (50rds at the range doesn't count,) you will drag down the rest of the class... Make sure your shit works. Bring an open mind. I dunno who is teaching at Gunsite these days. I know Ed Head is still there and he's good people. Ron Fielder is back there now, I know the guy and he is great ! I would avoid the instructors that an above poster mentioned to avoid. Pat rarely teaches pistol classes and he is no longer at Gunsite. After you go to the big school 5 day class(s) keeping going to the weekend classes given by the roving instructors (they pretty much all do it.) They are worth it, there are less people, and they are great tune ups. Been to Thunder Ranch-TX 5 times, Gunsite 3 times, and about 6 weekend classes on my own dime. I suspect that Old Painless and I have probably been in the same class @ TR somewhere along the line. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:26:00 AM EDT
[#15]
I used a 1911 at Gunsite, and a Bushmaster for Urban Rifle. No problems.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:28:37 AM EDT
[#16]
My training with Tactical Response converted me to a Glock 9mm guy.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 8:36:36 AM EDT
[#17]
O_P, Isn't that drill the one you taught to those folks one day not too long ago? I think you posted some pics and info about that. That's a great drill! HH |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:00:41 AM EDT
[#18]
It sure is.  Clint says that in a firefight, you might have to pick up a pistol to stay in the fight. You can't do that well unless you have practiced. And, you might not like Sigs (or whatever), but if a loaded one is all you have, you had better be familiar enough with it to make it work. Not to hijack, but my buddy brianksain is a SWAT trainer and works with the entire police department to do their qualifications. He told me of a time when he was qualifying some officers and a Major was in the group. The Major had a stovepipe and turned around and showed it to Brian and said, "Look at this. What do I do?" Brian hollered, "Fix it and get back in the fight!!" That is what Clint says all the time. If you practice and have a jam and just look stupidly at it, that is what you will do then the SHTF. Practice like you want to perform. Because you will perform as you practice.  |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:07:09 AM EDT
[#19]
I took the Gunsite 250 pistol class about 3 years ago and was prepared for the cult of Weaver and the 1911. Was pleasantly surprised that they didn't pan other stances, and at least one of our instructors was carrying a Glock. Excellent class.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:18:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Kinda off topic but I was at Ft Lewis for LDAC it was very pussyish and babied in my eyes, well at infantry school there was no "call a adult if your weapon jams" so everytime someone would have a malfunction they would raise their hand and wait for a safety to clear their weapon. well my A1 (i believe it was ) had quite a few FTE I was qualifying and it fucking did it, I whipped out my knife jammed it in the chamber and popped the cartridge out and then started shooting again.The safety was like "Whoa you didn't feel like waiting huh" 
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:22:48 AM EDT
[#21]
You'd be wrong. When I was down there the instructors remarked they could use ANYTHING from ANY manufacturer they wanted, and these two chose Glock. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:25:41 AM EDT
[#22]
During my classes at Blackwater the instructors carried mainly Sigs. The ARs they build there are equiped with the SIR systems and most of the ones I saw lacked any kind of optics.
Tactical Response instructors tend to be very pro Glock, but do use other pistols. When it comes to ARs and their set-ups it all depends on who you are talking to. Everyone is ultimately dsifferent. I've trained with more than enough people to see that. Take what you want and learn how to use it well. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:47:28 AM EDT
[#23]
You should have asked him, "Are you going to be standing behind me in a firefight to clear my weapon for me?" And, just for the record, there are better ways to clear a jam than to use a pocketknife. But if you haven't been properly trained and practiced, you won't know how to do it. It's amazing how poor some training is.  |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:50:51 AM EDT
[#24]
+1 I told Max Joseph after his class (And another very good class at Strategic Weapons Academy of Texas) "I'm glad I was never in a shooting match in the Army. Not only have I fired more rounds in a week than I did in my Army career, but, I actually know how much I didn't know now." |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 9:52:50 AM EDT
[#25]
It actually scares me how much I "thought" I knew, as compared to what I actually "knew". The difference can get you killed. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 12:34:56 PM EDT
[#26]
I would not enjoy that. My natural tendencies, reinforced by training, are 1911, Colt carbines, KAC rails and Aimpoints. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 12:58:09 PM EDT
[#27]
No good training school will make you run a certain system. A good quote from Richard Ray of Strategic Weapons Academy of Texas is "You won't find a martial arts or shooting technique named after me, becasue I refuse to defend a certain style that might not be the best thing for every situation." His meaning is that you should find what works best for you and, go with it, which was one of the great parts of his class. Over the week he showed us a number of different ways to execute the same task. It was very informitive. I run a Bushy and, a Walther 40 and, have done so at two schools now. I've seen long arms rangeing from SOCOM 16s to AKs to Mini 14s....Swear to god. If a school tells you they will only teach with a certain weapon type and equipment, I'd tell you to stay away from it. Max Joseph, in my Overseas Operator course said it best when he said that you may not always be issued what you expect. You might wind up with an AK, or an M4, or whatever. Unless you mean to take a class called: "AR Carbine Platform and EOtech" class, just bring what you have. Just make sure the damn thing goes "bang" a few thousand times before coming to class. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:02:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Blackwater let you run with whatever you brought with you. They do not require that you use what they do. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:07:32 PM EDT
[#29]
No HK's?!?!?!?!?
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:17:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Good advice. At Thunder Ranch, you are required to bring: Handgun Courses These are strong suggestions: Bring eye and ear protection Bring knee and elbow protection. Bring a HANDGUN THAT WORKS. Bring a spare. Bring at least six magazines or speed loaders Bring a GOOD holster, belt and magazine pouch. Bring a roll of white medical tape for fingers, hands and sore spots. Bring a flashlight and extra batteries (not required in the three day format). Bring sunscreen. Bring clothes that will protect you from sun and hot brass. Urban Rifle Course These are strong suggestions: Bring eye and ear protection Bring knee and elbow protection. Bring protection (gloves) for your hands. Bring a handgun and approximately 100 rounds for transitions. Have your rifle and at least six magazines. A spare rifle may be a good idea. Bring a roll of white medical tape for fingers and hands etc. Bring a flashlight and extra batteries. If you are using a scope and it uses batteries bring extra batteries. Bring sunscreen. Bring clothes that will protect you from sun and hot brass." And, Clint's expert advice: "I am always asked about equipment modifications. The less you do the happier you will be. That is my suggestion." You will notice that makes and models of firearms are not addressed. He will teach you to use whatever you brought. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:22:20 PM EDT
[#31]
I guess it's worth it, though. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:25:42 PM EDT
[#32]
At the time I went, the course cost about $1,000. That did not include hotel and food, or travel. A few hundred dollars of ammo is not unreasonable when you have spent that kind of money for quality training. And, BTW, it was some of the best money I ever spent.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:35:42 PM EDT
[#33]
+11ebenty billion. If a person can afford a gun, they can afford to train with it. They owe it to themselves, and, the rest of us. I'm a road warrior, so, I usually pay for my rental car and hotel with frequent renter/flyer/etc points...That I earn that are paid for by my company. Part of the job bennies If you cough up a grand for a week long course, plus ammo, etc, it's a small price to pay for the thunderstrike of realization that you really aren't as "tactical" as you think you are. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:37:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Yep, those 1911 guys just kept reloading and reloading and reloading and reloading and reloading and reloading... |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:40:03 PM EDT
[#35]
 ETA: Not bashing you oneSoneK, just using your comment as an example. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:44:33 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:48:51 PM EDT
[#37]
Watching the 1911 guys do that ALL damn day was what mostly kept me away from 1911s. I have the upmost respect for the platform and, round, but, I like my hi-cap .40 It's amazeing what the difference 8 rounds as opposed to 12 is. Granted, it's drills, and, I'm not bashing 1911s. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:50:20 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 12/24/2005 1:59:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Thanks for that. My Walther P99 .40 has gone "Bang" without a FTF or any other malfunction ever. Many, many thosands of rounds. I'm thankful
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Posted: 12/24/2005 2:09:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Thunder Ranch has already been addressed (I attended Defensive Handgun 1 and Urban Carbine when they were still in Texas.)
About testing your equipment: I attended a local (Dallas/Ft. Worth) three-day carbine class two years ago - one of my classmates had the following experience: Day 1 - He brought a Century Arms International (CAI) franken-FAL carbine which he'd borrowed from his uncle several days before but never test-fired, cleaned, etc. Failure to eject every single round, despite numerous attempts to fix. Instructor loaned him his personal FAL, which worked perfectly the rest of the day. Day 2 - He returned the (uncleaned) FAL to the instructor, and brought *another* untested CAI FAL which FTE/FTF every 10 rounds. Limped along the rest of the morning with this POS, at least he got a lot of practice clearing malfunctions He had to borrow the instructor's FAL again.Day 3 - Gomer Pyle (maybe that's unkind, as the guy was nice enough, but he was a total dork) brought a commercial Universal M1 Carbine in a Choate stock with tarnished Korean surplus .30 Carbine ammo. Halfway through the morning, he had a case rupture in an out-of-battery detonation, which spit powder and bits of brass all over his face. Now this would be bad enough, but this rocket scientist had taken off his eye protection several minutes before because of fogging in the hot humid weather, and gets all this FOD in his eyes Everything stopped while we irrigate his eyes under a faucet, then bandage both eyes. The instructor's wife drove him down to the nearest ER thirty minutes away - fortunately there was no permament damage. In the meantime, the rest of us amused ourselves by learning to shoot short bursts from another classmate's registered receiver CAR-15 (bring your own ammo) Moral of the story: Don't be the person who your classmates will remember as "that idiot who..." |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 2:12:58 PM EDT
[#41]
What holds up the best? Any major brand pistol will hold up against each other if taken care of. I have seen Sigs, HKs, Glocks, and Berettas all hold up well under years of use. Don't trust any pistol until you have put 500 rounds through it without major problems. Most shouldn't hicup at all under that test but sometimes you may find a weak srping here, bad mag ect. Instructors at those schools will recommend 1911 45acps. Is that the best? Not in every case and not for everyone. Situations and different people may require different pistols/calibers. Shot placement and practice is what counts. It is not the biggest caliber to miss first that counts, but the skilled precision hits under pressure that count. A real instructor will taylor the answers to these questions to suit the individual and his/her needs. Does/should an operator use/need the same equipment as a nurse on the night shift for CCW? |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 2:32:33 PM EDT
[#42]
THIS IS WHAT THEY RECOMMEND. Like many have said 9mm or better for caliber. It should not be a "brand fest". You better have already chosen a quality, safe, reliable brand.
I have attended Oregon Firearms Academy on five occasions for various defensive handgun classes and personalized training. The instructor’s use 1911 AND Glocks AND Colts AND Bushmaster AND etc. They shoot em' all the same… I have used the Glock 22, 23, 27 and Kimber TCII. They all worked. Oregon Firearms Academy is a premier training facility located south of Portland. This is a top-notch facility well worth the trip. Check out the web site and the credentials. You will learn to shoot better, safer, and smarter. http://www.oregonfirearmsacademy.com |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:09:36 PM EDT
[#43]
One of the most interesting accounts I have heard from one of these classes, came from a friend who was telling me about another attendee's experience (the two of them are good friends and have taken several classes together). He attended a Pat Rogers carbine class, and was told by Pat that even though the guy was left handed, he was going to have to shoot the class right handed. He took the first day of the week long course, then left for home the next morning.
I wasn't there, but I have met the southpaw in question, and in fact have taken a one day defensive carbine class with him, taught by Steve Moses. The man does a lot of training and shooting, and was a little pissed off when he was told that by Pat. He's a serious and well trained shooter, and not some flake whose account I would question. It makes little sense to me, but I wonder if anyone else has had that experience, or knows of others that have? |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:29:40 PM EDT
[#44]
I respect the hell out of Steve Moses. Damn fine instructor. He took the shotgun predjudice out of me. He reduced internet myth to actual reality showing positive and negative to shotguns. (btw...He prefers the AR on Almost all occasions )I've heard good things about Pat Rogers, and, that does not sound like somthing he'd do. You train as you fight. That doesn't sound like Pat Rogers at all. JMO. |
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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:35:57 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:39:03 PM EDT
[#46]
The only time I've heard a comment like that (you'll shoot left/right handed) from a top tier trainer is when the student portrays himself as being "all that" with his present shooting style. The hand changes serves to so him his skill isnt quite where he thinks it is
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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:43:48 PM EDT
[#47]
However, I would be happy to pay the full price or even more if a good training course was available in my area. On another note, I asked this already but I am so curious I have to ask again: Why hasn't anyone even mentioned an HK? Are they outcasted in the training field? 
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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:53:27 PM EDT
[#48]
A couple of guys in my Urban Rifle class had HKs. They were heavy compared to the ARs. They seemed to work okay, although one guy had some problems with his. Bottom line.....the ARs seemed to run a lot better and be lighter and easier to manipulate. (Not knocking those that like HKs. Just what I saw.) Clint will train you with what you bring. But he, and most of his instructors, use the AR system. So do I.
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Posted: 12/24/2005 3:55:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Not at all. I've never personally run across anyone using an HK...... But then, I use a Walther..... I've never come across anyone using a Walther either. I like not being part of the herd
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Posted: 12/24/2005 7:15:19 PM EDT
[#50]
I agree. I figured that once I posted that, someone would raise the BS flag, but I completely trust the guy who told me. I thought it was so bizarre when I heard it, I found it hard to believe. I'd read anything he writes, knowing the information he imparts is hard earned and battle tested, so when I first heard that report it really threw me. |
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