....my ignorance in previously believing that Senator John McCain was patriot above all else and a good man.  I believe the day is coming when he finally admits to being a jackass liberal and I'm sorry for the lives that he has cost this country with this new torture law.

thought this was headed elsewhere!

Right, I thought he had seen the light and was seeking help for his self-mutilation issues.

Glad to see his sick avatar gone though.

I had loathed his political stands since about 2000, and when he was courted for Kerry's runningmate, it kinda sealed the deal.  You don't get courted for the most liberal douchebag's right-hand guy without someone believing that you are a liberal.

It is ok my son.
Your eyes have been opened.
Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve.
Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative.

Quoted: It is ok my son. Your eyes have been opened. Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve. Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative.

WTF?

Monarchy is the only way to go

Quoted: ....my ignorance in previously believing that Senator John McCain was patriot above all else and a good man.  I believe the day is coming when he finally admits to being a jackass liberal and I'm sorry for the lives that he has cost this country with this new torture law.

Seeing as how HE was tortured as a POW, you can surely appreciate that he has a first hand perspective on the appropriateness of torture. You can attack his other views all you want, but I believe that in this case, the man is right.

Quoted: It is ok my son. Your eyes have been opened. Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve. Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative.

I'd go off on how I feel about Bush but I'm scared of the Gubmint

Quoted: Quoted: It is ok my son. Your eyes have been opened. Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve. Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative. WTF?

You think he is?

George W. Bush is the greatest Democrat president in history.  He's a moderate - on everything with the possible exception of the GWoT.

And still a far better choice than Gore or Kerry (not that that's saying much.)

You would have been correct 40 years ago.  Power does strange things to a man.............



.............I thought this thread was going to be an apology to all men for the heinous scrotal torture experiments that you conducted.........................

Quoted: Quoted: ....my ignorance in previously believing that Senator John McCain was patriot above all else and a good man.  I believe the day is coming when he finally admits to being a jackass liberal and I'm sorry for the lives that he has cost this country with this new torture law. Seeing as how HE was tortured as a POW, you can surely appreciate that he has a first hand perspective on the appropriateness of torture. You can attack his other views all you want, but I believe that in this case, the man is right.

War is hell.  I do not believe he is right.  I do not believe you have civil rights when your a terrorist.  I do not believe that there is anything wrong with killing a few of these fucks to get the attention of the rest and to let them know they are next if they lie.  I'm sorry McCain was tortured.  IIRC you didn't get drafted into flight school He volunteered to fight in the manner he did, he knew it was a possibility, and it came to fruition unfortunatly.  That's just like the little punkasses that join the military today to get a free ride in college then whine about going to war.  

Quoted: Quoted: ....my ignorance in previously believing that Senator John McCain was patriot above all else and a good man.  I believe the day is coming when he finally admits to being a jackass liberal and I'm sorry for the lives that he has cost this country with this new torture law. Seeing as how HE was tortured as a POW, you can surely appreciate that he has a first hand perspective on the appropriateness of torture. You can attack his other views all you want, but I believe that in this case, the man is right.

I'd agree with that.  If nothing else, he's got one up on everyone else on the subject of torture.

Unless you've been divorced, sat in Massachusetts traffic, or drank a full bottle of Jagermiester - in one sitting.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ....my ignorance in previously believing that Senator John McCain was patriot above all else and a good man.  I believe the day is coming when he finally admits to being a jackass liberal and I'm sorry for the lives that he has cost this country with this new torture law. Seeing as how HE was tortured as a POW, you can surely appreciate that he has a first hand perspective on the appropriateness of torture. You can attack his other views all you want, but I believe that in this case, the man is right. I'd agree with that.  If nothing else, he's got one up on everyone else on the subject of torture. Unless you've been divorced, sat in Massachusetts traffic, or drank a full bottle of Jagermiester - in one sitting.

Twice.  

Quoted: War is hell.  I do not believe he is right.  I do not believe you have civil rights when your a terrorist.  I do not believe that there is anything wrong with killing a few of these fucks to get the attention of the rest and to let them know they are next if they lie.  I'm sorry McCain was tortured.  IIRC you didn't get drafted into flight school He volunteered to fight in the manner he did, he knew it was a possibility, and it came to fruition unfortunatly.  That's just like the little punkasses that join the military today to get a free ride in college then whine about going to war.

+1000.  

Quoted: Quoted: ....my ignorance in previously believing that Senator John McCain was patriot above all else and a good man.  I believe the day is coming when he finally admits to being a jackass liberal and I'm sorry for the lives that he has cost this country with this new torture law. Seeing as how HE was tortured as a POW, you can surely appreciate that he has a first hand perspective on the appropriateness of torture. You can attack his other views all you want, but I believe that in this case, the man is right.

So you think the US tortures people like the North Vietnamese did?

The liberals have won.  Might as well give it all up, because they have brainwashed everyone.  

I do not believe that terrorists, enemy combatants, or illegal invaders of this country have the same rights guaranteed citizens under the Constitution.

Ironically, McCain said that he broke under NV torture, but later went on to claim that "torture doesn't work" "One of these things is not like the other..."


The terrs know about our hesistance to shoot women and kids. It's a natural reaction of a "civilised" citizen. That's why insurgents /combatants / terrorists from VN onward have either taught and utilised kids as agents, or used them as shield and camoflauge. They know the "limits of our sensibility", and will push us past them to acheive their goals.

I think he's hamstrung our intelligence and will cost American, friendly, and innocent lives... just as he and Feingold worked together to guarantee ploitcal reelections with the campaign finance reform incumbent protection act.

I've known he was a liberal ass for years, he is my Senator.

His first wife stood by him the entire time he was a prisoner and when he got released.
Didn't he dump her while she had cancer for Cindy who came from a rich family.

Sounds like John Kerry who became wealthy marrying up.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It is ok my son. Your eyes have been opened. Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve. Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative. WTF? You think he is? George W. Bush is the greatest Democrat president in history.  He's a moderate - on everything with the possible exception of the GWoT. And still a far better choice than Gore or Kerry (not that that's saying much.)

Quoted: So you think the US tortures people like the North Vietnamese did? The liberals have won.  Might as well give it all up, because they have brainwashed everyone.

You think the government would admit it if they were? I have no doubt that in 20 or 30 years we'll hear a lot of stuff that we're not hearing now about how this war is being conducted , and yes, I think that some of it will involve torture  every bit as bad as what the North Vietnamese did to our guys 30 years ago. You don't go building secret prisons on foreign soil to hold tea parties.

Quoted: I do not believe that terrorists, enemy combatants, or illegal invaders of this country have the same rights guaranteed citizens under the Constitution.

Everyone has basic human rights, and one of those should be that you are not subjected to torture if you are being held against your will, whether you are a POW, enemy combatant or whatever title the administration wants to throw on the enemy of the moment. The WoT is being used as the same broad brush excuse  to sweep away civil liberties that the Communist Scare was back in the 50s. You should all be much more worried about THAT in the long run than whatever war we happen to be fighting in the here and now.

Quoted: Quoted: So you think the US tortures people like the North Vietnamese did? The liberals have won.  Might as well give it all up, because they have brainwashed everyone.   You think the government would admit it if they were? I have no doubt that in 20 or 30 years we'll hear a lot of stuff that we're not hearing now about how this war is being conducted , and yes, I think that some of it will involve torture  every bit as bad as what the North Vietnamese did to our guys 30 years ago. You don't go building secret prisons on foreign soil to hold tea parties.

IF we are torturing for the sake of torture I have to say it's no sweat off my sack, BUT more than likely we are doing it to get need intel.  The VC and NVA were just sick and did shit for no reason.

Quoted: Quoted: It is ok my son. Your eyes have been opened. Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve. Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative. WTF?

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385518277/qid=1134872559/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-3899012-8349465?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Quoted: Seeing as how HE was tortured as a POW, you can surely appreciate that he has a first hand perspective on the appropriateness of torture. You can attack his other views all you want, but I believe that in this case, the man is right.

But if some reports are true, McCain spilled his guts after being subjected to "the treatment"

Some would say...It works!


The man was in the Hanoi Hilton for 5+ years and I am not in any position to question his "anything" but on the subject of "Does torture (or rough treatment)  work?".......

You be the judge.

Well , I find it hard to stomach some of his political beliefs also.

But I honor him for his service to his Country.

I do believe however that the John McCain who went to Vietnam , did not return
the same man.

Quoted: Monarchy is the only way to go

"Vote for the Monarchist Party! Vote now, so you will never have to vote again!"

Quoted: Unless you've been divorced, sat in Massachusetts traffic, or drank a full bottle of Jagermiester - in one sitting.

Dayum- that's cruel and unusual punishment!  Time to put some Johnnny Cash on the CD player- or Joy Division. Either will get you through it.....

Quoted: Quoted: So you think the US tortures people like the North Vietnamese did? The liberals have won.  Might as well give it all up, because they have brainwashed everyone.   You think the government would admit it if they were? I have no doubt that in 20 or 30 years we'll hear a lot of stuff that we're not hearing now about how this war is being conducted , and yes, I think that some of it will involve torture  every bit as bad as what the North Vietnamese did to our guys 30 years ago. You don't go building secret prisons on foreign soil to hold tea parties.

God, why am I not surprised?

AS for McCain, I don't much care for the guy though he is a war hero. Same for Inouye, Murtha and that bunch.
Doesn't make them good congressmen or even Americans.
But I am opposed to torture. Want to kill 'em? No problem in some circumstances, but no torture. As a human race we should have advanced beyond slavery and torture. Any gov't engaging in either of those should be eradicated by every country on Earth.

And no, I don't think we torture people now. I do think they wanted that option open for select circumstances.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ....my ignorance in previously believing that Senator John McCain was patriot above all else and a good man.  I believe the day is coming when he finally admits to being a jackass liberal and I'm sorry for the lives that he has cost this country with this new torture law. Seeing as how HE was tortured as a POW, you can surely appreciate that he has a first hand perspective on the appropriateness of torture. You can attack his other views all you want, but I believe that in this case, the man is right. War is hell.  I do not believe he is right.  I do not believe you have civil rights when your a terrorist.  I do not believe that there is anything wrong with killing a few of these fucks to get the attention of the rest and to let them know they are next if they lie.  I'm sorry McCain was tortured.  IIRC you didn't get drafted into flight school He volunteered to fight in the manner he did, he knew it was a possibility, and it came to fruition unfortunatly.  That's just like the little punkasses that join the military today to get a free ride in college then whine about going to war.

+1000,000

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It is ok my son. Your eyes have been opened. Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve. Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative. WTF? You think he is? George W. Bush is the greatest Democrat president in history.  He's a moderate - on everything with the possible exception of the GWoT. And still a far better choice than Gore or Kerry (not that that's saying much.)

Wut you mean?  Bush is not a cunservativ ? OMG WTF???!!!ONEELEVENONE!!!!111

Torture is one thing, but when they put a vague, wishy-washy word such as "DEGRADE" in there, that just cracks everything ass-open for the ACLU.

The definition of torture isn't what it used to be.  Panties on your head counts as torture nowadays.  

The liberals have won.  Time to give up.

Quoted: It is ok my son. Your eyes have been opened. Steel yourself for the many other revelations you shall recieve. Soon you shall see that President Bush is not a conservative.

Quoted: Torture is one thing, but when they put a vague, wishy-washy word such as "DEGRADE" in there, that just cracks everything ass-open for the ACLU.

It truly is a sad day.

Quoted: The definition of torture isn't what it used to be.  Panties on your head counts as torture nowadays.   The liberals have won.  Time to give up.

No shit; those used to be called panty-raids.

The issue of whether to engage in torture is not a conservative/liberal issue!  It is an issue of honor.  I am sickened at the prospect of the the death of American honor and principle, not the mere tactical consequences of whether America tortures those it holds prisoner.  Once sacrificed on the altar of necessity, honor cannot be revived.  

People with honor have definite limits on how low they will stoop to acheive their ends.  Honorable people do not justify shitty behavior as a necessary response or defense to being victimized.  

There is no honor in emulating the despicable behavior of your enemies.  It simply isn't possible to torture someone honorably.  

What do we as a nation and a people desire for our future?  If we "win" the war on terror (anyone who actually thinks you CAN win a guerilla war through traditional military action is disturbingly disconnected from the last 50+ years of world history) by emulating the terrorists, we will have been assimilated by the enemy; that's not the same as being victorious.  

I am not ready to settle for dishing out to the bad guys what they regularly and normally dish out to their victims; giving them a "taste of their own medicine" won't win the war.  That strategy is too much like wrestling with a pig in a shithole: you both get equally filthy, but the pig actually enjoys it.  You, on the other hand, will emerge from the fight  much less attractive (rightfully and understandably so!) to the rest of humanity ...

In case someone thinks to discredit me as a liberal wuss, let me state my rock-solid belief that we have no alternative but to kill any and all who actively seek to dish out death and violence to our fellow citizens.  We should expel all who would do us harm from our land, and deny them entrance to our borders; deny them commerce with our society and economy; and deny any other form of cooperation or benefit to all societies who fail to exterminate the terrorists in their midst who are targeting our lands and our citizens.  Continuing to do business with those who do not effectively root out and exterminate the terrorists in their midst dishonors America.

Self-defense is honorable.  Pre-emptive elimination of a "rabid dog" class of threat is also honorable.  Prolonging pain and suffering in order to acheive an end such as acquiring intelligence or confession of crimes has been practiced throughout history; but the perpetrators of such atrocious behaviors are infamous villains.  There are no heroes in Western culture who practiced torture, to my knowledge.

Think carefully for a very long time before choosing to condone torture: America's honor is held in the balance of the ultimate decision our leaders make in this matter.

I hope more in az see the light and vote his ass out.

Quoted: I hope more in az see the light and vote his ass out.

What worries me are all the people talking about having him run for pres.

Quoted: The issue of whether to engage in torture is not a conservative/liberal issue!  It is an issue of honor.  I am sickened at the prospect of the the death of American honor and principle, not the mere tactical consequences of whether America tortures those it holds prisoner.  Once sacrificed on the altar of necessity, honor cannot be revived.   People with honor have definite limits on how low they will stoop to acheive their ends.  Honorable people do not justify shitty behavior as a necessary response or defense to being victimized.   There is no honor in emulating the despicable behavior of your enemies.  It simply isn't possible to torture someone honorably.   What do we as a nation and a people desire for our future?  If we "win" the war on terror (anyone who actually thinks you CAN win a guerilla war through traditional military action is disturbingly disconnected from the last 50+ years of world history) by emulating the terrorists, we will have been assimilated by the enemy; that's not the same as being victorious.   I am not ready to settle for dishing out to the bad guys what they regularly and normally dish out to their victims; giving them a "taste of their own medicine" won't win the war.  That strategy is too much like wrestling with a pig in a shithole: you both get equally filthy, but the pig actually enjoys it.  You, on the other hand, will emerge from the fight  much less attractive (rightfully and understandably so!) to the rest of humanity ... In case someone thinks to discredit me as a liberal wuss, let me state my rock-solid belief that we have no alternative but to kill any and all who actively seek to dish out death and violence to our fellow citizens.  We should expel all who would do us harm from our land, and deny them entrance to our borders; deny them commerce with our society and economy; and deny any other form of cooperation or benefit to all societies who fail to exterminate the terrorists in their midst who are targeting our lands and our citizens.  Continuing to do business with those who do not effectively root out and exterminate the terrorists in their midst dishonors America. Self-defense is honorable.  Pre-emptive elimination of a "rabid dog" class of threat is also honorable.  Prolonging pain and suffering in order to acheive an end such as acquiring intelligence or confession of crimes has been practiced throughout history; but the perpetrators of such atrocious behaviors are infamous villains.  There are no heroes in Western culture who practiced torture, to my knowledge. Think carefully for a very long time before choosing to condone torture: America's honor is held in the balance of the ultimate decision our leaders make in this matter.

I completely agree with you, but the modern day definition of torture is panties on someones head.  If your family was to be killed by a terrorist attack and someone in custody had information of that attack, would you condone panties on his/her head?

When the left defines the terms and issues, we are lost.

Fuck all this, If electrocuting and sawing on 10 al quaeda guys to get some info saves ONE american I'm all for it.

Quoted: Quoted: The definition of torture isn't what it used to be.  Panties on your head counts as torture nowadays.   The liberals have won.  Time to give up. No shit; those used to be called panty-raids.

Well I'll tell you one thing.

If putting panties on a prisoner's head, putting electrodes on a prisoner's nutsack, yanking his fingernails off, or blowing the brains out of a fellow prisoner to scare him would save the life of just one of my fellow military people, or one U.S. civilian, I'd do it.

They don't call it 'war' for nothing.

Flame away, you pussies.

Within 6 seconds of each other backstop.  Hows that for some crazy shit?

Just saw that...

... I'm from Arizona, and I have to strongly suggest you never vote this man as any representative of U.S. interests

You have a lot of other things to appologize to us for, but at least its a start.

no problem. and i do appreciate it. you were probably one of the biggist pricks ive ever seen on the internet and im glad you are seeing the error of your ways,

best wishes for the holiday.

Quoted: You have a lot of other things to appologize to us for, but at least its a start.

Kiss my ass Vato!

Quoted: no problem. and i do appreciate it. you were probably one of the biggist pricks ive ever seen on the internet and im glad you are seeing the error of your ways, Merry Christmas.

Fixed it

Quoted: Merry Christmas. Fixed it

nice!