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Posted: 12/10/2005 4:53:00 AM EDT
I've just got some new bookshelf speakers that I need to adjust. I've got a 12 band per channel equalizer but haven't set up new speakers in a while so I am asking the hive mind for help.
Isn't there a particular range of frequencies that should be near zero as a starting point? 1K for instance? My equalizer has a bar graph, pink noise generator and a microphone. For Bass frequencies, shouldn't I mic the speakers at about 1 foot to remove standing wave effects? Then splice in the sounds mids and highs from a further mic distance, is that right? Also, which frequencies contribute the most to vocal presence? Some CD's the vocals are somewhat buried. Your help is appreciated. Thanks M4-AK 
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Posted: 12/10/2005 4:56:40 AM EDT
[#1]
Everything should be set at the neutral point for starting.
You only adjust for speaker deficiencies and room acustics However, most folks do more damage with an equalizer than good. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 4:57:59 AM EDT
[#2]
I don't use them at all. Seriously.
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:03:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Most audiophiles would prefer not to have all that extra stuff in the signal path.
The more typical "audiophile thing" would be to leave it out, and adjust your in-room response by speaker placement, and room acoustical tuning devices. The "general public" use of equalizers is mainly to artificially boost certain frequencies like the bass especially. Most vocals fall into the 350Hz - 1500Hz range. Equalizing your speakers with the test mike at 1 foot in front of them does not compensate for in-room response anomalies. Proper response tuning would have the test mike at the listening position, but not all equalizers are this sophisticated in their testing procedures. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:05:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Plus, equalizers kind of have that '70's cheesey, guido with an unbuttoned shirt & gold chain feel to them now days.
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:16:34 AM EDT
[#5]
Play white noise through the system and view the speaker's response with a spectrum analyzer and a calibrated lab microphone. The microphone is mounted in "the" listening spot. Sweep the left channel and then the right channel, then bring both channels up and check again. I'd rather see you use a 1/3 band equalizer as 12 bands is only a start can can be rather crude. Once you've got the system as flat as possible you'll note that the equalizer is making up for missing parts of the speaker's outputs and lowering other bands. Moving the speakers, adding or removing sound proofing can help which means you'll have to sweep the room again.
I have a nice 156 seat theater at work with JBL's best speakers, White Labs equalizers, and 2400 watts worth of Crown professional amplifiers. The room has accoustic treatments and was designed with more than some concern for the audio. I used a real time analyzer to sweep the room and the results were more than pleasing. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:31:27 AM EDT
[#6]
It's an 1984 equalizer. I suppose Disco was in when I bought it. M4-AK |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:41:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Audiophiles have no need=HORSESHIT, with their I like it(want it) flat rhetoric.
Frequency response is nowhere near flat, all the way back to the recording process, starting with the microphones that were chosen. Careful equalization is what can make a good sounding system sound great. zSPeakers need to be 'voiced' for the space they are placed in. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:43:35 AM EDT
[#8]
I haven't seen a EQ in a while but I was always told they compensated for shitty speakers and poor acoustics
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:52:13 AM EDT
[#9]
Well duh! Why else would I want it? M4-AK |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:58:38 AM EDT
[#10]
get better speakers instead |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 6:00:21 AM EDT
[#11]
Well yeah, when I get some better money... Ar's or Speakers, Ar's or Speakers, Ar's or Speakers..... Ar wins.... M4-AK |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 6:04:15 AM EDT
[#12]
I understand. I could have bought a new car for what I spent on guns the past 2 years 
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Posted: 12/10/2005 6:19:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Yes, I would say the room might need some work if your equipment is capable.
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Posted: 12/10/2005 7:11:05 AM EDT
[#14]
Audiophile and equalizer do not belong in the same sentence.
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Posted: 12/10/2005 7:19:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Most modern speakers will benefit from a little goosing at 80Hz and about 1KHz. Season to taste.
EQ's create huge phasing problems due to the way the filter networks work. That's why the "audiophile" crowd frowns on them. Nothing wrong with them, just don't overdo it. Make sure you give your ears a rest during the setup and also do the setup at your normal listening volumes. Fischer-Munson loudness curves and aural fatigue can lead to a seriously over-hyped sound when you get a fresh listen. Disconnector |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 8:23:54 AM EDT
[#16]
I moved my reference mic back to the listening position. Made quite a few changes compared to 3 foot from the speakers. Also found the bass response thinned out the further back I postioned the mic. Couldn't quite get the mic stand where I was at, so I boosted 28hz to suit my taste. Overall, made very few deviations from flat across the band.
I am using an old Technics 12band per channel SH-8055 circa 1984 and it surprisingly still works. Also using a Nu-mark STD 252 reference mic on a stand. Now here is what's amazing to me. My old AR38S Acoustic Research bookshelfs from 1982 (a 10" woofer with a soft dome ferro fluid tweeter lost the surround. I haven't bothered to repair them. Couldn't find much selection of classic styled bookshelfs especially at an inexpensive price to replace them. Most setups these days appear to be either 3 to 5 piece subwoofer systems, or very expensive tower jobs. I wasn't ready to spend that much right now for a very expensive tower job. So I went to Rextv and bought their KLH 12" woofer ported 3 way system with ferro fluid tweeter. Paid $85 for the pair. Yeah I didn't expect much. Turns out, the Bass is better than the old AR's ever were and was less peaky and or very smooth. Low bass went much lower than the AR's. Can't say the mid and high clarity is superior yet, I have a slight head cold. Still, for the price these cheap POS speakers are very satisfying and they have a 5 year warranty on the drivers. Sounds much better than my 7piece Bose automotive system too as would be expected. Apparently even loudspeakers have benefitted from technology/price reduction along with electronics in the last 23 years. Will save for some Polk/Paradigm/Infinity towers with the big driver eventually after I get the new Gun Safe. I would be sure the real quality stuff would have better imaging, etc. For now, this works fine.  Just so you don't think my whole system is a POS one, I do have a Shure V15 Type III cartridge on my turntable.M4-AK |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 8:45:46 AM EDT
[#17]
+1... |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 4:19:12 PM EDT
[#18]
+100 A real audiophile has spent more money on their hook up cables than the average person spent on their whole system . For example I have a pair of transparent audio speaker cables that cost more than 3k for the pair . Thats just the tip of the iceberg . If people think you spent too much money on your gun collection then steer clear of high end audio . It goes thru money even faster. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 4:36:24 PM EDT
[#19]
 A *REAL* audiophile knows that, while quality interconnects and speaker cabling is important, spending over $2/foot for speaker cable and $10/foot for line-level interconnects is ridiculous. How many recording studios (you know, the places where sound quality is the life-blood of the business) use $3,000 pairs of speaker cables? Or $500 silver 5' power cables? Quality is important, I agree, but much of the "high-end" audio business is run by snake-oil salesmen who found something better than founding MLM companies. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 5:55:08 PM EDT
[#20]
For home theater, I much prefer the sound & fill of bipolar speakers. Definitive Technologies or Mirage, good stuff. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 6:07:28 PM EDT
[#21]
That just means you have not reached this level yourself . Please check your facts before you share your opinion . Oops I forgot this is the internet . Check into that recording studio comment you made . Ever heard of Abbey Road or Skywalker sound ? Ive been to and seen Skywalker sound and they have almost 100k of speaker cables alone . Most of the top studios have equipment costing millions but I guess they are just stupid too right . |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 6:24:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Striker-
It's 1/3 octave, not 1/3 band. Dicconnector- It's "Fletcher-Munson", not "Fischer Munson". The audio Nazi strikes again!  And BTW most audio pros these days don't use speaker cables. At all. Active reference monitors are pretty much standard in recording studios nowadays. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 7:38:48 PM EDT
[#23]
I've been there too; a friend of mine worked there for several years. While it may be true that they have $100K in speaker cables, this doesn't mean they have 20 50' cables. They have a LOT of speaker cable in that place. They also have custom-modified mics (Neumann U87s) and a crap load of other stuff. What they don't have are $600 silver 5' power cords plugged into normal grid power, or $500 wooden volume knobs, or $3000 cables for one pair of speakers. But, really, is Skywalker representative of the industry? Hardly. Not many studios have $100,000,000 construction and equipment budget. Certainly, not even barely-decent studios use crappy cabling. You aren't going to find a U87 or a 414 plugged in with a thin Radio Shack cable. What you WILL see are cables made using Mogami, Belden, or Canare cable. Speaker cable is likely to be Belden or even Monster Cable (from bulk rolls). Good stuff, but nothing fancy and less than a tenth of the stuff you're talking about. And if you were to open up a set of the active studio monitors that ARE commonly used in most studios today, you aren't going to find 8 gauge wires inside. Nor will you find such inside the amps that power the passive speakers. I'm all for quality gear, but there's a line between better quality and being ripped off for no gain, and a lot of the "high end" "audiophiles" cross that line. -Troy |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 8:22:44 PM EDT
[#24]
You mean I wasted $300 for the standoffs to keep my cables off the carpet??? 
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Posted: 12/10/2005 8:29:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Then go win $5k. until you do, keep your "facts" of cables and sound to yourself please. And while I'm standing on my soapbox, can the "amps have sound quality' shit too. unless you can show me the check for $10k, in which case you will have done what was previously thought impossible. As for the EQ, honestly I'd scrap all that testing stuff. The simple solution is, set it to how YOU like it. Thats why you bought your system right? To be pleasing to YOU. Not to make all the test gear look good, and not to impress your friends. While theres good advice on how to set it, generally how I set it is not how you would set it or how anyone else would set it because we have our own tastes. So, just go throw in some music and play around till it sounds good to YOU. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:34:47 AM EDT
[#26]
Guys , relax I'm not picking a fight and you are correct Troy the average studio doesn't have a large equipment budget . My point was the best studios due use the best . To all that say there is no difference beyond a certain pricepoint , do some BLIND testing . I have been doing this for over 20 years and set up many BLIND tests with repeatable results . Why do you think when you buy new speakers or a better receiver that it sounds better ? Different mixes of equipment will sound different but it is personal taste . Different does not always mean better . Thats why you should ALWAYS listen to equipment before you buy . The most expensive does not mean the best for you.
Bottom line , like was said above , do what sound best to you and if possible use the least amount of active components in the signal path . Before you dismiss something as nonsense , see it for your own eyes or in this case ears . I'm sure there are specialty shops in your areas wher you can find a higher grade of electronics than Best buy or Tweeter carry . Just take a listen . Also it is not about showing off to your friends , its about your tastes . Whenever I have people over no one has ever heard of and of the brands in my system . If I wanted to show off I'd have bought Sony , Denon or Yamaha not Ayre , Mark Levinson and Boulder . |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:38:07 AM EDT
[#27]
 Goddamn showoff!
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:46:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Would you agree that most of the people who read that have never heard of those brands ?
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:49:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Absolutely. Hell, I only recognize 2 of the3. While I dont thinkofmyself as a self proclaimed audiophile or anything, Idolike to think I havemy finger on the pulse of the industry so to speak. Ona side note, have you ever auditioned any Adire Audio home speakers? I've beenthinking real hard of getting their Apex 4 ways. I've used there car audio products with more then a little success. If the home audio is anything like the mobile audio....... Wow. Just....wow..... |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:52:46 AM EDT
[#30]
This is an interesting discussion.
It seems that even the "cable skeptics" here will admit that "using good cables" is a valid concept. However, it seems that there is quite a difference of opinion about what is a "good cable", and how much it should cost. If there is any difference at all, between a "cheap crappy cable" and a "good cable", then we have already established the FACT that there are differences in cables and their sound quality. So all that is left to discuss is how much should we pay for these improvements. If one kind of "good cable" is good, is it worth it to pay more money for a "good cable" that is "better". That's pretty much up to the buyer, isn't it? I mean just because one guy is on a budget, and doesn't think it is worth his money to buy an expensive cable(even if he took the time to listen, instead of making blanket judgments based on his bank account), does it mean that somebody with alot of money that can afford to get what he wants is "wasting his money" to get what sounds better in his system? Most people who have listened to the different cables in quality systems would say it is an improvement, and is worth it to get what is the best you may be able to afford. Most other people tend to think it is a waste of money. And it could be for some people. I mean, putting racing tires on a Yugo isn't going to be worth the money, is it? Once it is established that there are any differences at all, then it becomes a matter of what you prefer and what you can afford. The discussion about whether it makes a difference is over. It is all a matter of degree and budget after that. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:55:04 AM EDT
[#31]
No I'm sorry I have not listened to that brand . If you can find a dealer and go and have a listen . Bring some music you are familliar with . Some brands have made the successfull jump from car to home audio . Trust what you hear , I once brought my wife along to a blind testing session about a year ago and the results were funny . She is indifferent when it comes to audio yet she had no problem hearing the differences . |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:56:53 AM EDT
[#32]
 I always knew us Kansas boys had good taste in equipment.  I had to sell my Brahma before I came to Iraq cuz i didnt want it to set for 15-18mos.  And while Levinson equipment is good, I certainly wouldnt brag about it. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 5:59:04 AM EDT
[#33]
TWL
People used to ask us all the time , how much is too much for cables . Everyone has to work in their budget . You are correct that a $500 cable will make no difference hooked to a $500 receiver . Our advice was to keep cables at around 15% of your system budjet . |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:02:34 AM EDT
[#34]
I'll give you that , their new stuff aint that great . I have some of their older equipment . Before being bought by Harman . It's probably all down hill for them now . |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:05:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Dont get me wrong, its great stuff....and the systems that are in the newer Lexus' vehicles are awesome for what they are....it just seems that they have gone down in quality, like you said. 
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:11:02 AM EDT
[#36]
I was very dissapointed when Madrigal sold them to Harmon ( parent company of Harmon Kardon ). Their reference line was the almost unchallenged top equipment . Now it is already falling . At that level Ayre Acoustics is a strong contender . Not the most expensive out there but top notch stuff .
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:20:13 AM EDT
[#37]
I suppose I'm one of the few nay sayers. Cable is cable. Its a peice of copper that transfers a signal. Now, noice rejection? THATs a whole nother discussion. 
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:21:37 AM EDT
[#38]
I believe that Adire started in the home audioand worked over to car audio. I know the owner, Dan Wiggins, is a stand up guy in every respect. While I havent met him personally, from how he handles himself online he seems like a very down to earth upstanding honest individual. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:22:09 AM EDT
[#39]
 Still havemy 12" Brahma sitting in the garage. A cleaner sub I havent heard. That XBL^2 is OUTSTANDING. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:37:20 AM EDT
[#40]
I've heard of them, but yes, most folks think BOSE is the best. 
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:38:09 AM EDT
[#41]
WHOA! Thats blasphemous talk there! Bose IS the best!!
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Posted: 12/11/2005 6:52:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Thanks for making me smile ! I've probable done too much damage in this thread already . It was about a equalizer after all . I was in the position that this exotic stuff doesn't make a difference for a long time . After being exposed to it I was converted . Many people dismiss it as snake oil . I was personally involved in the upgrades at Gateway studios and they have a 3k speaker cable ( each ) hooked up to a 15k speaker ( each ) . They were awarded top studio 9 times ! This kind of equipment is common at this type of facility . Movies like Apollo 13 , Men in Black , Phantom Menace and Saving Private Ryan were all done on equipment of this caliber . There are differences , trust your ears and stay in you budjet . Like I said , I have done enough damage so I would be glad to help in any way I can but IM me so I don't derail the topic . |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 7:09:47 AM EDT
[#43]
Not exactly. The thing about cables is that they are measurable scientifically. We know what affects the signal that passes through a cable: inductance, capacitance and resistance. We can measure these attributes much more accurately than just using subjective listening tests, so we can tell the differences between the cables. This is the inherent conflict about high end cables. People who believe their ears, and people who believe the o-scope and multimeter. Having seen first hand the subjectiveness of listening tests(even double blind ones) and the inherent inaccuracies of the human ear which can adapt and get used to almost any sound, the cheapest boombox or car stereo to the highest of highend systens, the human brain can adapt to almost anything, I will trust the scientific measurements. The electronic measurements cane be used to explain the listening tests though. Generally speaking, objective tests show that bulk cable from belden or canare modify the signal much less than most any other cable. It's interesting that high end cables come up in a discussion about equalizers, when IMO the whole 'high end' cable market is just a way for audiophiles to sneak tone controls back into their systems, without calling them that. The point is that copper is copper, whether is $1 a foot or $100 a foot. And a silver cable will have the same resistance as a slightly thicker copper conductor, so why use silver? A thick copper cable with a foamed Polyethylene dielectric is the most accurate cable there is, exotic materials and non standard construction methods notwithstanding. Silver may be a better conductor than copper, but thats only at the same guage, and silver would cost many many many times what copper does at the same size. This cost difference can more than make up for using a thicker cable. Just so happens that copper in foamed PE is cheap cheap cheap, and belden and canare make a vide variety of it. But it is measurably the most accurate cable, which is why it is used in many professional applications. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 8:01:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Uhhh.....  And yes, Dan is hella good people. I wouldnt hesitate to buy Adire Audio again. And I probably will when I get back. Who knows what they'll have cooked up in 12months.
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Posted: 12/11/2005 8:21:54 AM EDT
[#45]
I still feel comfortable using the DSP for levels and EQ in my Sony ES.
I have Belden "Zip Cord" for speaker feeds, and Monster preamp cables. The only think in the preamp cables with "bling" I see useful is the gold plating. Since they are not often moved, the corrosion resistance is the only reason. If there is a pure resistive problem in preamp wiring, that can be taken care of in the EQ, same for inductive (dulling low end) and capacitive (dimming high end). For speaker cables, resistance is a factor, so large gauge copper is fine, but dealing with the levels and frequencies of amp outputs, the capacitance and inductance on a speaker cable would only effect the extreme highs and RF. Even "junk" cable can't break .1uF in a 20 foot run. Inductance in a speaker cable is entirely pointless, by the time you have a large enough inductance to even touch the low end, you would need several hundred feet wound around an iron bar. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 8:44:35 AM EDT
[#46]
Set the sliders to look like big "smiles"!
Seriously, the room plays a big part in the sound of any speaker. A speaker that is flat in an anechoic chamber is not going to sound flat in your room. The speaker on the floor, rather than up on stands increases bass. Putting the speaker against the wall and on the floor increases bass 6 db (radiating into 1/4 space). Putting the speaker in the corner increases bass even more (radiating into 1/8 space). I find it best to skip the mic/pink noise, and just adjust by ear. Listen to voices, male and female. Adjust midrange to sound natural. Put on a jazz combo, adjust the bass to sound natural on the low drums and string bass, adjust the high end to sound natural on piano and cymbals. Realize sax, trumpet, etc may be close mic'd. Dave Sanborn's sound is highly processed. Kirk Whalum's only lightly on some tunes. Paul Desmond, Gerry Mulligan, Cannonball Adderley, not at all. Next check out some orchestra. Anything by London Symphony Orchestra is usually recorded very well. If you listen to Hip Hop... well, you don't need audiophile equipment at all, just get some of those DJ speakers at Radio Shack.  And kick drum does not go "Wooooom... Wooooom...." That is overring typical of "bandpass' subs, you know closed box with only a port that gives a Johnny One Note bass. If you have one of those, burn it. |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 8:50:55 AM EDT
[#47]
All highs, all lows - - - - must be BOSE Disconnector |
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Posted: 12/11/2005 9:20:19 AM EDT
[#48]
That is what I really hate about a lot of the car audio installations. I like the nice "snap" thump of a non-ported sub. You need more power to pull the driver back, but it is worth it to hear a clean "thump" rather than a "rumble". What makes it worse is that a lot of rock FM stations pump up the dynamics on the bass end which makes that "effect" stronger... |
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Posted: 12/15/2005 12:58:54 PM EDT
[#49]
I've got them 9250B KLH's equalized pretty good from the sitting position. However the 63hz band is particularly sensitive to where in the room the mic is placed. The farther back, the less cut is suggested. Otherwwise it suggests a massive cut at 63 hz.
They sound great. Turns out, my old AR's only had a 45hz half power lower limit. These new ones alledgedly go to 28hz no db specified. They sound much deeper and smoother even when the volume is low. I got great play for my 96 dollar investment. M4-AK |
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