ARFCOM Country Discussion Thread

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ARFCOM Country Discussion Thread (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 10/28/2005 11:18:00 AM EDT

To try and keep discussion out of the other thread, thereby allowing more members to post before the thread hits the page limit, I thought it would be a good idea to have a discussion thread. Ideas, comments, suggestions, complaints, etc can be posted here.

I've been thinking of making a slight change to the images - or at least adding some additional images. Currently, the degree of red or blue for each county is determined by the the largest county, by arfcommer population. Basically, the big counties are "raising the bar" so to speak, for the rest of the country.

This might be problematic. For example, Marion County Indiana has 44 members and Broward County Florida has 30. Currently, counties like these are what other counties are judged against. This kind of seems unfair. Miami-Dade County has 17 members - which is quite a bit - but considering how many people live there, it's not as impressive as the 4 people in Summit County Ohio, where the population is quite small.

So, I thought about changing the images to reflect arfcommer population by county, as a percentage of the total population in each county. Having 10 members in a county of 80,000 people seems more impressive than 20 members in a county of 3,000,000, doesn't it?

Thoughts? Other suggestions? Anything else you'd like to see, to make the data more meaningful?

ETA: Changes implemented. I think it's nicer this way. Both methods are used, as opposed to arguing over which one is more "fair".

Posted: 10/28/2005 11:21:53 AM EDT

[#1]

Yes, that is the only meaningful comparison.

Dan

Posted: 10/28/2005 12:11:54 PM EDT

[#2]

<sigh> The one bright spark in California which is red right now will immediately go to the bluest shade of blue...

You are right, it does make more mathematical sense.

However, it also generally happens that the larger the county's population, the more likely it's anti-gun. See Los Angeles or San Francisco counties, for example. Thus a representation of 10 in LA, California would be as significant as 10 in a county of 10% the population in, oh, Kentucky. Rebelliousness and independence of thought should be rewarded!

NTM

Posted: 10/28/2005 12:13:46 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
<sigh> The one bright spark in California which is red right now will immediately go to the bluest shade of blue...

You are right, it does make more mathematical sense.

However, it also generally happens that the larger the county's population, the more likely it's anti-gun. See Los Angeles or San Francisco counties, for example. Thus a representation of 10 in LA, California would be as significant as 10 in a county of 10% the population in, oh, Kentucky. Rebelliousness and independence of thought should be rewarded!

NTM

Very good point. I should probably just include both images, at the expense of bandwidth.

Posted: 10/28/2005 12:19:02 PM EDT

[#4]

First, I must say I'm quite impressed with the work and quality being shown by that map. That's not only a terrific idea in general, but the quality of your work is quite admirable.

As far as the question posed here - I agree that making the color represent some sort of percentage of a county population that are ARFCOM members is a much better measure - and it mirrors the original idea of the "red/blue" map of the presidential election.

So I say make the colors correlate with the % of county population that are ARFCOM members.

Posted: 10/28/2005 12:49:12 PM EDT

[#5]

Manic_Moran - Actually, it might not turn Los Angeles county as blue as you think.

The shades of red or blue are being determined by quantiles - or equal data points, if you prefer. It's a way of dividing ordered data into equal-sized data subsets. Essentially, I'm taking the member totals for each county, and equally placing them into 6 groups.

If I do this as a percentage of the county population, then the total members in each county no longer matters. There will be groups of counties where arfcommers make up .000000001% of the population, and other counties where arfcommers make up .000000004% of the population. Organizing these into equal-sized groups may just suprise you - with a few more members participating, Los Angeles county might rank higher than you think.

I've also considered moving this down to 2 shades of red and 2 shades of blue, which means 4 data points. It would then be a 4 point quantile, or quartile for short. There wouldn't be as many shades of red and blue to decipher, and determining your rank would be a little easier. The first quartile woulld cut off at the lowest 25% of data, the second quartile would be the 50th percentile, etc.

More thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

Posted: 10/28/2005 12:51:19 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
To try and keep discussion out of the other thread, thereby allowing more members to post before the thread hits the page limit, I thought it would be a good idea to have a discussion thread. Ideas, comments, suggestions, complaints, etc can be posted here.

I've been thinking of making a slight change to the images - or at least adding some additional images. Currently, the degree of red or blue for each county is determined by the the largest county, by arfcommer population. Basically, the big counties are "raising the bar" so to speak, for the rest of the country.

This might be problematic. For example, Marion County Indiana has 44 members and Broward County Florida has 30. Currently, counties like these are what other counties are judged against. This kind of seems unfair. Miami-Dade County has 17 members - which is quite a bit - but considering how many people live there, it's not as impressive as the 4 people in Summit County Ohio, where the population is quite small.

So, I thought about changing the images to reflect arfcommer population by county, as a percentage of the total population in each county. Having 10 members in a county of 80,000 people seems more impressive than 20 members in a county of 3,000,000, doesn't it?

Thoughts? Other suggestions? Anything else you'd like to see, to make the data more meaningful?

To be honest, I was thinking the same thing, that would make a more accurate representation of where we have "control." Looks like we agree more on just 1911's.

Posted: 10/28/2005 12:59:29 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
First, I must say I'm quite impressed with the work and quality being shown by that map. That's not only a terrific idea in general, but the quality of your work is quite admirable.

Awwww, shucks...

Posted: 10/28/2005 1:05:57 PM EDT

[#8]

Thanks for pointing out Marion County, Indiana.

Posted: 10/28/2005 1:07:51 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Thanks for pointing out Marion County, Indiana.

Well, you do have the most members!

Posted: 10/28/2005 1:29:25 PM EDT

[#10]

What if you change the map to reflect the above method but you a system of colored dots to represent actual numbers as it now does.

ie:
light green dot=1 member
dark green=2 members
yellow=3 members
orange=4-6 members
black=7+ members

Or would that be too difficult?

Posted: 10/28/2005 1:31:19 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
What if you change the map to reflect the above method but you a system of colored dots to represent actual numbers as it now does.

ie:
light green dot=1 member
dark green=2 members
yellow=3 members
orange=4-6 members
black=7+ members

Or would that be too difficult?

Oh, you mean like both? Shaded counties by %, and dots by actual member count?

Posted: 10/28/2005 1:32:27 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What if you change the map to reflect the above method but you a system of colored dots to represent actual numbers as it now does.

ie:
light green dot=1 member
dark green=2 members
yellow=3 members
orange=4-6 members
black=7+ members

Or would that be too difficult?

Oh, you mean like both? Shaded counties by %, and dots by actual member count?

Yes, exactly.

Posted: 10/28/2005 1:37:32 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What if you change the map to reflect the above method but you a system of colored dots to represent actual numbers as it now does.

ie:
light green dot=1 member
dark green=2 members
yellow=3 members
orange=4-6 members
black=7+ members

Or would that be too difficult?

Oh, you mean like both? Shaded counties by %, and dots by actual member count?

Yes, exactly.

It won't work on the nationwide map, because the dots are too damn big. That said, it DOES work on the state level maps (I'm playing with it right now). I'm just trying to get the colors to look decent, so that they make a little more sense.

Posted: 10/28/2005 1:39:55 PM EDT

[#14]

Next quesiton: 4 colors or 6 (like it is now)?

Posted: 10/28/2005 3:32:27 PM EDT

[#15]

OK, it's updated with some of the suggested changes. If you guys think it's cool this way, let me know. If it sucks, let me know.

Posted: 10/28/2005 3:35:33 PM EDT

[#16]

either way, it is still cool to see. thanks.

Posted: 10/28/2005 4:05:01 PM EDT

[#17]

Good work... thanks!!!

Posted: 10/28/2005 4:12:33 PM EDT

[#18]

Very nice work Subnet.

I'm proudly representing Cook County, Illinois here.

Posted: 10/28/2005 4:17:09 PM EDT

[#19]

SubnetMask,

Anyway it turns out will be good.

Thanks for the hard work on an interesting project.

GM

Posted: 10/28/2005 9:30:22 PM EDT

[#20]

Dumb question - what software are you using?

Posted: 10/28/2005 11:28:55 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Dumb question - what software are you using?

There are no dumb questions - only inquisitive idiots.

Just kidding.

Excel, Microsoft MapPoint, and some batch files. MapPoint is the enterprise version of the popular "Streets" application, most people are familiar with. It lets you do cool stuff, such as linking maps to data contained in external sources like spreadsheets and databases. Actually, it's capable of doing ALOT of things that I've never bothered to mess with.

It works like this (way simplified):
I enter the member's name and county into a spreadsheet. When I'm all done, I save each worksheet as a space delimited text file - one for each state (a macro makes this trivial). I wrote a macro that validates the spelling of every county in the US, by comparing it to those in MapPoint. If MapPoint doesn't think the county exists, it doesn't exist. The macro informs me of the problem, and allows me to correct it.

I then run a batch file that concatenates the text file for each state into one text file, and puts board tags around everything so it looks pretty.

To create and update the images, I have the spreadsheet configured as a linked data source in MapPoint. I tell MapPoint what column is what, how I want the data organized (quantiles), what color I want each quantile, etc. It makes a bunch of pretty maps, that I save as individual images.

After that's done, I upload the images to my server (also automated). I paste the contents of my automatically generated board code into my original post, and voila! Instant update.

So, in a nutshel - it's like this:
1. Enter names and counties, using macro to validate county names.
2. Run macro to save as 50 different text files (one for each state).
3. Run batch file.
4. Update linked data source in MapPoint and save images for all 50 states - less than 5 clicks.
5. Upload images to server (batch file)
6. Paste auto-generated board code from batch file into post. Submit.

After step 1, the whole process takes less than 5 minutes. Automating the process took a few hours, but it was worth it in the long run. I wanted to be sure that keeping the thread up to date wouldn't be a burden.

I hope that answers everything!

Posted: 10/28/2005 11:32:23 PM EDT

[#22]

Where is the link to the map?

Posted: 10/28/2005 11:34:02 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Where is the link to the map?

It's tacked here in GD

, but here ya go anyway: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=400257

Posted: 10/29/2005 3:20:17 AM EDT

[#24]

OK, looks good but what I pictured was smaller dots and a totally different set of colors for the dots. If you use dots as small as the capitol city dots, they should/might work on the full size map too.

Posted: 10/29/2005 9:14:31 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Dumb question - what software are you using?

There are no dumb questions - only inquisitive idiots.

Well, that's definitely me!

*snip*

Microsoft MapPoint

*snip*

Sweet. I've been playing with MapPoint lately (all kinds of good stuff on these MSDN DVD's), and didn't know it had those capabilities...

Gonna have to start playing with it more, now!

I hope that answers everything!

Definitely! Thank you!

Posted: 10/30/2005 2:41:16 AM EDT

[#26]

SubnetMask,

Does your program pick up upper case vs. lower case letters?

In reference to the original post of the NJ members > {Target435 / target435 in Burlington Co.} The post has both and the total should be 113. target435 is the correct one.

Posted: 11/1/2005 12:06:01 AM EDT

[#27]

Madmike...Pima county AZ

Posted: 11/1/2005 12:17:51 AM EDT

[#28]

MadMike,Pima County,AZ

Posted: 11/1/2005 12:35:48 AM EDT

[#29]

Can a mod delete all the replys on the other thread so we can post more?
If not, where should we post our county?

CA, Fresno county.

Posted: 11/1/2005 12:47:47 AM EDT

[#30]

The other thread locked. Put me down for Stark County, Ohio

Posted: 11/1/2005 1:00:08 PM EDT

[#31]

Aaaaa!

Try not to post names/counties here, because then I'll have to look in two places to update everything.

I'll post the new thread (with updates) when I get off work tonight, and it'll get re-tacked.

Posted: 11/1/2005 1:50:34 PM EDT

[#32]

Other page maxed out so I'm posting county here . . . hope thats ok, I didn't read past the first post.
Tulsa County, OK

Posted: 11/3/2005 1:05:11 PM EDT

[#33]

I need more opinions:

Currently, the counties are shaded by taking the total member population, and dividing it by that county's total population (2002 census data). The percentages for every county are then organized into 6 groups (quantiles). I think it's the most fair way to do it.

In addition, there are circles which denote the actual member population in each county, also organized into 6 quantiles.

The first method figures that red counties are those with more arfcommers as a percentage of the total population, and the second method figures that red counties are those with more arfcommers, regardless of how populous the county is.

I've tried to illustrate both techniques on the same image, but it's hard to read in large states with small counties. The circles just cover up the county. MapPoint won't let me make the circles any smaller.

So here are my questions:
1. Should I eliminate the circles all together, and just use "Total members divided by population" as the red/blue metric? Or...

2. Should I follow the arfcom mantra and "use both", but in two separate images for each state, at the expense of bandwidth?

Posted: 11/3/2005 1:54:17 PM EDT

[#34]

I vote both for clarity. Maybe a third map for Team Members.

Posted: 11/3/2005 2:03:00 PM EDT

[#35]

I like the idea of the two seperate maps, myself...

Posted: 11/4/2005 7:10:22 PM EDT

[#36]

How about adding the rest of the U.S.?

Posted: 11/5/2005 1:04:09 PM EDT

[#37]

+1 on including the rest of America, I know us up here in the boondocks get ignored. But we do own Ar's right? Anyways to whoever is doing this map add 1 to Juneau Alaska. Would love to see how many other members are in Juneau.

Posted: 11/6/2005 3:45:46 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
How about adding the rest of the U.S.?

I think I got everbody that matters...

Just kidding. I'll add Alaska to the map, don't worry.

Posted: 11/17/2005 3:09:52 PM EDT

[#39]

Helloooooooooooooo SubnetMask.

How about an update?

Posted: 11/27/2005 6:35:15 AM EDT

[#40]

Bump?

Posted: 11/30/2005 6:34:01 PM EDT

[#41]

Collin County Texas
Add me to the map please

Posted: 12/12/2005 7:51:51 PM EDT

[#42]

On the ARFC county map ya need to add me (thecleaner) & chooper for Oakland County, MI. I'm not on the list

Posted: 12/12/2005 7:57:56 PM EDT

[#43]

It's back! Yes!!!!

Posted: 1/1/2006 9:00:52 PM EDT

[#44]

Bump to remind people that there is a discussion thread for improvements, suggestions, etc.

I've implemented the changes I was pondering in the first post...

Posted: 1/2/2006 12:10:05 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
I vote both for clarity. Maybe a third map for Team Members.

And a fourth for former team members/cheap bastards. When is Hawaii gonna get updated?

Posted: 1/2/2006 10:56:31 AM EDT

[#46]

You don't have me down there...I am in Polk County, Florida.

Posted: 1/2/2006 11:03:21 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I vote both for clarity. Maybe a third map for Team Members.

And a fourth for former team members/cheap bastards. When is Hawaii gonna get updated?

You guys like making work for me!

Hawaii is in there, btw. I show 5 of ya! Looks like one of the images is busted, though. I'll take care of that in the next update.

Posted: 1/3/2006 12:06:41 AM EDT

[#48]

Oregon's looking pretty good with 70 now 71 members & only about 3 1/2 million total population. Also why do the counties get so small east of the Rockies? I lived in MO for a while & always wondered why we were driving through a different county every 15 minutes.