I regular read the BBC news site, and they mention quite a number of shootings that don't make the news  in the USA.  As we all know the UK has banned guns, but.............
================================================
BBC NEWS
Two convicted of Danielle murder
Two men convicted of gunning down a Nottingham schoolgirl in a drive-by attack have each been jailed for at least 32 years for murder.

Danielle Beccan, 14, was shot as she walked home from the Goose Fair through the St Ann's area last October.

Mark Kelly, of Wilford Grove, The Meadows, Nottingham and Junior Andrews, of no fixed address, had denied murder.

Birmingham Crown Court had heard they fired from a car at the teenager and her friends as they walked home.

Danielle fell to the ground fatally wounded as her friends tried to run to safety.

Danielle's mother Paula Platt was at the scene within minutes of her daughter being shot.

She cradled the teenager in her arms as they awaited an ambulance in an alleyway.



Both men fled the city after the killing - Kelly to Birmingham and London and Andrews to Aberdeen.

Kelly did not give evidence, but denied the charges through his lawyer.

It took the jury of eight men and four women 16 hours to decide the pair carried out the killing as part of an inner-city gang feud.

Both men were convicted by majority verdicts of 10-2 and given life sentences.

Andrews was born in Northampton, and raised in St Ann's, Nottingham before moving to The Meadows area of the city.

Trial judge Mr Justice Butterfield said: "You robbed a bright young girl of her life and blighted forever the lives of her family and friends.

"This was a terrible killing. You armed yourselves with a handgun and set out cruising around St Ann's looking for likely victims. "It was what you told (a witness in the case) you wanted to do.

"Your pathological and illogical hatred of everyone from St Ann's was so intense you did indeed want to kill."

Mrs Platt said after the verdicts: "The last year has been absolute hell.

It's going to be hard without Danielle, but I know we will be OK
Paula Platt, Danielle's mother

"We have been through so much pain and anguish and today we have got a verdict which obviously we are pleased with.

"But at the end of the day we are leaving here without Danielle."

She went on to pay tribute to Nottinghamshire Police and people in Nottingham for their efforts and support.

"Now perhaps we can move on with the rest of our lives," she said.

"It's going to be hard without Danielle, but I know we will be OK."

Supt Kevin Flint, who led the investigation, said the case had been hampered by fear and intimidation because of the gang element.

He added: "Inquiries will continue to trace other people who were in the vehicle from which the shots were fired at Danielle."

Dona Parry Jones, of the Crown Prosecution Service, labelled it a "cowardly and despicable" crime.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/4326590.stm

Published: 2005/10/12 16:01:58 GMT

© BBC MMV

See you and I read this and think, "Wow, taking away guns isn't working over there, criminals are still going to use them".

They read this and think, "those evil guns I hate them even more now, we need to step up our efforts to get rid of them".

Two totally different philosophy's on the issue.

Our's focuses on the criminal, their's focuses on the metal object.

Thank GOD they banned weapons and stuff like this doesn't happen any more..

Don't you think you've got enough of your own shootings to worry about?

Mark

Quoted: Don't you think you've got enough of your own shootings to worry about? Mark

Mark, we don't worry about them.  

Nobody denies that the US has many more homicides than the UK.  FOR US, this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE.

CMOS

Quoted: Quoted: Don't you think you've got enough of your own shootings to worry about? Mark Mark, we don't worry about them.   Nobody denies that the US has many more homicides than the UK.  FOR US, this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE. CMOS

See, I find that comment to be slightly disturbing.
Am I right in thinking that you don't care how many of your own people get murdered as long as it doesn't affect your right to own a gun?

Mark

Mark,

That's a bit out of bounds on your part.  Never said nor implied that at all.  

What I am saying is that WE ALL KNOW the even by outlawing ALL guns, criminals will still have and use them - against ME.  For that reason, I am not willing to go along with the "ban wagon."  I choose to ALWAYS be able to defend myself and not - EVER - depend on the government to do so.

CMOS

Quoted: Mark, That's a bit out of bounds on your part.  Never said nor implied that at all.   What I am saying is that WE ALL KNOW the even by outlawing ALL guns, criminals will still have and use them - against ME.  For that reason, I am not willing to go along with the "ban wagon."  I choose to ALWAYS be able to defend myself and not - EVER - depend on the government to do so. CMOS

+1
Guns (and knives, bats, fists...etc) are not the cause of violence, how hard is that to grasp?

Terrible story.  There was no mention of how old the murderers were.  

For the locals.  Is there much gang activity in the UK?  I suspect not nearly as much as in many larger US cities.  I'm curious.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't you think you've got enough of your own shootings to worry about? Mark Mark, we don't worry about them.   Nobody denies that the US has many more homicides than the UK.  FOR US, this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE. CMOS See, I find that comment to be slightly disturbing. Am I right in thinking that you don't care how many of your own people get murdered as long as it doesn't affect your right to own a gun? Mark

You can't grasp what he's saying??

He saying he's OK with a bunch of dumb gang bangers shooting at each other in their hood so  long as he has a right to own a weapon to protect his family and to own a weapon to help overthrow an oppressive .gov

It's called logical thinking. He's weighed out the pro's and con's and has decided whatever fallout does happen due to incorrect  firearm use within our country  is a neccassary evil to ensure that he has the means to personally protect his family and help overthrow an oppressive .gov

We're not subjects  in America despite all the songs and movies you see, we like to be in control of  our lives.

It wasn't meant to be a personal attack on yourself, so don't take it as such.

But I still can't get my head around this statement this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE.

The young girl in the story, Danielle Beccan, was 14 and she was shot in a random drive-by.
No amount of self defense or CCW could save her in that situation.

Mark

Quoted: It wasn't meant to be a personal attack on yourself, so don't take it as such. But I still can't get my head around this statement this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE. The young girl in the story, Danielle Beccan, was 14 and she was shot in a random drive-by. No amount of self defense or CCW could save her in that situation. Mark

And apparently no amount of gun control could save her either.

Quoted: It wasn't meant to be a personal attack on yourself, so don't take it as such. But I still can't get my head around this statement this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE. The young girl in the story, Danielle Beccan, was 14 and she was shot in a random drive-by. No amount of self defense or CCW could save her in that situation. Mark

Mark - exactly.  And I am supposed to disarm because that scumbag shot the girl???   What does THAT scumbag's actions have to do with me, and other law abiding civies?

CMOS

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't you think you've got enough of your own shootings to worry about? Mark Mark, we don't worry about them.   Nobody denies that the US has many more homicides than the UK.  FOR US, this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE. CMOS See, I find that comment to be slightly disturbing. Am I right in thinking that you don't care how many of your own people get murdered as long as it doesn't affect your right to own a gun? Mark You can't grasp what he's saying?? He saying he's OK with a bunch of dumb gang bangers shooting at each other in their hood so  long as he has a right to own a weapon to protect his family and to own a weapon to help overthrow an oppressive .gov It's called logical thinking. He's weighed out the pro's and con's and has decided whatever fallout does happen due to incorrect  firearm use within our country  is a neccassary evil to ensure that he has the means to personally protect his family and help overthrow an oppressive .gov We're not subjects  in America despite all the songs and movies you see, we like to be in control of  our lives.

Well said.  Thank you.

CMOS

Quoted: See, I find that comment to be slightly disturbing. Am I right in thinking that you don't care how many of your own people get murdered as long as it doesn't affect your right to own a gun? Mark

In short, Yes.  I take the following quote from Jefferson to heart.  

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

Now Jefferson was talking about rebellion, but the same principle applies to crime.  I am fully willing to accept that a certain amount of murders MAY happen because of the prevelance of guns in our society.  However, these few murders, as tragic as they are, are a price I would freely pay to ensure that my liberty is protected.  In other words, to quote another of our Founding Fathers.

Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.

- Benjamin Franklin.  

Quoted: It wasn't meant to be a personal attack on yourself, so don't take it as such. But I still can't get my head around this statement this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE. The young girl in the story, Danielle Beccan, was 14 and she was shot in a random drive-by. No amount of self defense or CCW could save her in that situation. Mark

Would you feel better if she was stabbed or clubbed to death? If someone wants to kill you, there are a million ways to do so. Criminals will always have guns, because they don't follow the law anyway. Outlawing guns did not help this child.

Having cars is a risk, alot of people die in car accidents but we're not about to give up cars either.

Mark

And apparently no amount of gun control could save her either.

No, but the Electric Chair could have.  These 2 guys might have thought about being lit up in "Ol Sparkey" and the threat of capital punishment might have been a spoiler for this situation.

I for one do not think that leathal injection should have been allowed as a means for capital punishment.  Those deserving of that punishment should have the think about and endure the most bizzare thoughts of all those volts frying their brains while killing them.  That should do alot for future generations, that the get  to think about what if  before setting out to murder or rape.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't you think you've got enough of your own shootings to worry about? Mark Mark, we don't worry about them.   Nobody denies that the US has many more homicides than the UK.  FOR US, this is a risk that we are willing to deal with in order to be truly FREE. CMOS See, I find that comment to be slightly disturbing. Am I right in thinking that you don't care how many of your own people get murdered as long as it doesn't affect your right to own a gun? Mark

Don't you have your own politics to worry about?


I find it slightly disturbing that people seem disposed of the notion that murders were only commited in the years followin the invention of  the firearm.  Apparently prior to that we were all peace loving creatures that never hurt each other.  

Would it have been better if the gang spilled forth from the car and ran her through with a sharp peice of metal?  Do you think the gangs will all disband with heads lowered, kicking pebbels as they shuffle off if only you can impose enough gun control?

A tad OT but;

As a country we accept about 3,500 deaths and maimings as a result of car & truck accidents.  We try to minimize them as best we can, but Darwin plays a role there.  I think its some $6billion dollars in damages every year due to the rubber tired transports we drive everyday.  its a "cost" to society to be able to get into your car and go where you want, when you want.

While banning guns "feels good" it does not nothing more than "feel good".  I do not think humans can move past a criminals right to commit murder the first time.  How can you "pre-empt" a murderer since no crime has been commited?

And how about motor vehicles used as murder weapons.  One old lady murdered eight motorcyclists with her car.  The police officer thought it strange the bikers head was in the wheel well?  Turns out she was tapping the handle bars of the bikes as they flew by with the fender of her car.  Causing their deaths.  Different weapon, same result.  Pick your poison, murders are choosing theirs.

We are left with trajic consequences such as this 14yr old girl.  Shes dead and the two preps who did it will die in prison at great public expense.  One stupid crime, three graves.  The rest of us continue on with our lives.  Despite the losses society continues.

Sky

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He saying he's OK with a bunch of dumb gang bangers shooting at each other in their hood so  long as he has a right to own a weapon to protect his family and to own a weapon to help overthrow an oppressive .gov It's called logical thinking. He's weighed out the pro's and con's and has decided whatever fallout does happen due to incorrect  firearm use within our country  is a neccassary evil to ensure that he has the means to personally protect his family and help overthrow an oppressive .gov Reality… 99.999% of you will never need to use a gun to defend yourselves. And if you saw some gangbanger tearassing through a slum area would you take your gun and give chase to shoot it out with them?  Probably not. And what's with overthrowing an 'oppressive .gov', a quaint dream, even try that and you would be hunted down and shot down like dogs by the Army, and no amount of 'Constitutional Rights' would stop that happening… Waco anyone?  Koresh fought the 'law' and the 'Law' won. ANdy

Millions use firearms for self-defense EACH YEAR in the U.S.  Although I likely wont be one of those using my firearm in self-defense, I'm a hell of a lot more comfortable having it.  So if my carrying harms no one who isn't out to harm me, who the hell are you or anyone else to tell me I can't?

As for overthrowing a tyrannical government... All I can say is this:

U.S. pop. of about 300 million
2 or 3 million military and law enforcement
AT LEAST one gun for every 2 people (likely, a hell of a lot more than that)

Do you think that those odds are tipped in favor of the .gov?  I don't.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He saying he's OK with a bunch of dumb gang bangers shooting at each other in their hood so  long as he has a right to own a weapon to protect his family and to own a weapon to help overthrow an oppressive .gov It's called logical thinking. He's weighed out the pro's and con's and has decided whatever fallout does happen due to incorrect  firearm use within our country  is a neccassary evil to ensure that he has the means to personally protect his family and help overthrow an oppressive .gov Reality… 99.999% of you will never need to use a gun to defend yourselves. And if you saw some gangbanger tearassing through a slum area would you take your gun and give chase to shoot it out with them?  Probably not. And what's with overthrowing an 'oppressive .gov', a quant dream, even try that and you would be hunted down and shot down like dogs by the Army, and no amount of 'Constitutional Rights' would stop that happening… Waco anyone?  Koresh fought the 'law' and the 'Law' won. ANdy Actually, the law lost a lost of trust from people who might have trusted them before.  We have seen several times since then that Federal LE just withdrew from a standoff. Koresh and 80 people died, but the government didn't get away clean and shiny either.

+1

If anything, Ruby Ridge and Waco opened up the eyes of some sheep.

Quoted: Quoted: I regular read the BBC news site, and they mention quite a number of shootings that don't make the news  in the USA.  As we all know the UK has banned guns, but............. © BBC MMV Less than 100 people a year are killed by guns in Britain each year. The vast majority of those shootings are 'black on black' and drug related and occur in 4 inner city areas of London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester. Andy

So???  Less than 100 people per year are killed in foul play total in Britain?  Or is it that they are killed by other means?  I'm sure the folks that do die every so often at the hands of a criminal are happy to do so to make society feel better about guns.  I mean after all you really can't ever defend yourself with one... it's just so impractical.

Quoted: And what's with overthrowing an 'oppressive .gov', a quaint dream, even try that and you would be hunted down and shot down like dogs by the Army, and no amount of 'Constitutional Rights' would stop that happening… Waco anyone?  Koresh fought the 'law' and the 'Law' won. ANdy

This statement is wrong on SO many levels.

(1) Koresh could have won.  Had he surrendered like his lawyers wanted him to, he would likely have been acquitted by the Texas jury.  Several Branch Davidians were acquitting of shooting the ATF becuase the ATF agents had so screwed up the deal that it was reasonable to assume they were criminals and not cops.

(2) Koresh was a wackjob with about a 100 followers.  You cannot use his example to say that rebellion would never work.

(3) There are 80 million gun owners in this country.  If even a small fraction of the 80 million took up arms against the government johnny law would be screwed.  For instance, see Northern Ireland.  Rebellions with small arms are actually quite effective against modern forces over the long term.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He saying he's OK with a bunch of dumb gang bangers shooting at each other in their hood so  long as he has a right to own a weapon to protect his family and to own a weapon to help overthrow an oppressive .gov It's called logical thinking. He's weighed out the pro's and con's and has decided whatever fallout does happen due to incorrect  firearm use within our country  is a neccassary evil to ensure that he has the means to personally protect his family and help overthrow an oppressive .gov Reality… 99.999% of you will never need to use a gun to defend yourselves. (Maybe, but I will have the CHOICE to do so should I fall into that 1% group.) And if you saw some gangbanger tearassing through a slum area would you take your gun and give chase to shoot it out with them?  Probably not. And what's with overthrowing an 'oppressive .gov', a quaint dream, even try that and you would be hunted down and shot down like dogs by the Army, and no amount of 'Constitutional Rights' would stop that happening… Waco anyone?  Koresh fought the 'law' and the 'Law' won.  (I  will always "win" because I will have the ability to FIGHT - not cower like a beaten animal.  Whether or not I die in the process is not even part of the equation.) ANdy

Andy - I'm not slamming you but you may not understand the above statements in red.  You have to be born with our freedoms to understand that we will die TRYING to keep them.

CMOS

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Millions use firearms for self-defense EACH YEAR in the U.S.  Although I likely wont be one of those using my firearm in self-defense, I'm a hell of a lot more comfortable having it.  So if my carrying harms no one who isn't out to harm me, who the hell are you or anyone else to tell me I can't? As for overthrowing a tyrannical government... All I can say is this: U.S. pop. of about 300 million 2 or 3 million military and law enforcement AT LEAST one gun for every 2 people (likely, a hell of a lot more than that) Do you think that those odds are tipped in favor of the .gov?  I don't. Millions? Must be one hell of a violent country you have there with 'millions' of incidents that needed a fiream for defence. Joe Soap would shit his pants if a State Trooper  or anyone else in a uniform pointed a gun at him. The first 'citizen' to shoot down a soldier would be branded a traitor and a terrorist and the sheeple would nod approvingly. ANdy

Not necessarily "one hell of a violent country," but more like "one hell of a large country, with a large population."

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I regular read the BBC news site, and they mention quite a number of shootings that don't make the news  in the USA.  As we all know the UK has banned guns, but............. © BBC MMV Less than 100 people a year are killed by guns in Britain each year. The vast majority of those shootings are 'black on black' and drug related and occur in 4 inner city areas of London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester. Andy So???  Less than 100 people per year are killed in foul play total in Britain?  Or is it that they are killed by other means?  I'm sure the folks that do die every so often at the hands of a criminal are happy to do so to make society feel better about guns.  I mean after all you really can't ever defend yourself with one... it's just so impractical. Figures for 2002, total homocides 886, of which 97 were with firearms. Britain has one of the highest per capita gun ownership rates in the Western world… LEGALLY owned Rifles @ 1.5 Million, Shotguns @ 5 Million, not bad for a 'disarmed' population of 60 Million. It is estimated there could be up to another 2-5 million unregistered weapons in circulation as well, handguns are very easy to obtain if you are a criminal and really want one. ANdy

How much prison time would one of those gun owners be looking at if they used one to defend themselves?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I regular read the BBC news site, and they mention quite a number of shootings that don't make the news  in the USA.  As we all know the UK has banned guns, but............. © BBC MMV Less than 100 people a year are killed by guns in Britain each year. The vast majority of those shootings are 'black on black' and drug related and occur in 4 inner city areas of London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester. Andy So???  Less than 100 people per year are killed in foul play total in Britain?  Or is it that they are killed by other means?  I'm sure the folks that do die every so often at the hands of a criminal are happy to do so to make society feel better about guns.  I mean after all you really can't ever defend yourself with one... it's just so impractical. Figures for 2002, total homocides 886, of which 97 were with firearms. Britain has one of the highest per capita gun ownership rates in the Western world… LEGALLY owned Rifles @ 1.5 Million, Shotguns @ 5 Million, not bad for a 'disarmed' population of 60 Million. It is estimated there could be up to another 2-5 million unregistered weapons in circulation as well, handguns are very easy to obtain if you are a criminal and really want one. ANdy

isn't that ample enough proof that gun control dosen't work?

and as far as the whole, "...overthrowing an opressive government is a 'quaint' dream..." well, i guess that's the difference in thinking between the people who did, and the people who didn't.

Why do you guys think you're so free?
Your lives are just as controlled as the rest of us.

The only perceived freedom you have over us is the right to defend yourselves with a gun
America has always been a violent society, from the days of the Wild West to the present.
Now, I'm not about to say life is cheap in the US, that is clearly not the case, but I do think that you have become somewhat de-sensitized to murder and death.

I read the threads on here and see American news on CNN and Fox as well as MSNBC so it's not as if I don't know what's going on. I also visit the US and see the local news channels when I'm there and I do get the opinion that there are some quarters that are rather blase about murder and death etc.

I also read the weekly Britain bashing threads on here.
And I still think this " murder is tolerated, so long as I can carry a gun".
America has evolved in a strange way from the rest of us. That's why we find it hard to comprehend sometimes

Mark

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I regular read the BBC news site, and they mention quite a number of shootings that don't make the news  in the USA.  As we all know the UK has banned guns, but............. © BBC MMV Less than 100 people a year are killed by guns in Britain each year. The vast majority of those shootings are 'black on black' and drug related and occur in 4 inner city areas of London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester. Andy So???  Less than 100 people per year are killed in foul play total in Britain?  Or is it that they are killed by other means?  I'm sure the folks that do die every so often at the hands of a criminal are happy to do so to make society feel better about guns.  I mean after all you really can't ever defend yourself with one... it's just so impractical. Figures for 2002, total homocides 886, of which 97 were with firearms. Britain has one of the highest per capita gun ownership rates in the Western world… LEGALLY owned Rifles @ 1.5 Million, Shotguns @ 5 Million, not bad for a 'disarmed' population of 60 Million. It is estimated there could be up to another 2-5 million unregistered weapons in circulation as well, handguns are very easy to obtain if you are a criminal and really want one. ANdy How much prison time would one of those gun owners be looking at if they used one to defend themselves? none… it is perfectly legal to use a firearm to defend yourself if the assailant is armed. The rules are much the same is in many US states. ANdy

So that old senior citizen is pretty much screwed if a 25 year old breaks in and decides to beat his or her ass?

A firearm would be an equilizer in this situation.

CMOS

Quoted: Governments don't like their civilians getting uppity. The next guy who tries to defy the .Feds in the US will get killed too, it's the way of the world. Overthrowing governments doesn't work in highly developed societies, all the cards like rapid transport, speedy communications and the ability to control the population are in the hands of the governments. ANdy

Not disagreeing with you.  But, I stand by my point that large-scale ownership of arms makes a successful revolution possible.  Some nut in Waco just isn't going to be the spark that sets it off - Thank God.  Northern Ireland, like the intifada, Iraq, Vietnam, Russian-Afghan war, and many others simply prove that large, modern, mechanized armies can have a very tough time - and even lose - against lightly armed rebel forces.  I suspect that if only 10% of gun owners rebelled against the government (8 million men) they would quickly toppel it.  Thus, gun ownership in America does provide an important 'last resort' to a tyrannical regime taking over this country.  

Quoted: How much prison time would one of those gun owners be looking at if they used one to defend themselves?

Just like the US, it would depend on the circumstances

Mark

Quoted: Why do you guys think you're so free? Your lives are just as controlled as the rest of us. The only perceived freedom you have over us is the right to defend yourselves with a gun America has always been a violent society, from the days of the Wild West to the present. Now, I'm not about to say life is cheap in the US, that is clearly not the case, but I do think that you have become somewhat de-sensitized to murder and death. I read the threads on here and see American news on CNN and Fox as well as MSNBC so it's not as if I don't know what's going on. I also visit the US and see the local news channels when I'm there and I do get the opinion that there are some quarters that are rather blase about murder and death etc. I also read the weekly Britain bashing threads on here. And I still think this " murder is tolerated, so long as I can carry a gun". America has evolved in a strange way from the rest of us. That's why we find it hard to comprehend sometimes Mark

I haven't posted in this thread yet, because I try to stay out and not walk on another countries toes.

American's do NOT belive murder is ok.  The belief they have is if someone is going to murder them they will stop it and my logic for thousands of years you must use the weapon that is equal or superior to your assailant which is common sense.  

I belive crime/NOT murder is stopped every 15 seconds by a firearm in the United States.  So they stop LOTS of crime.  Gov is slow, and every gov turns on it's people.  History has taught us this so eventually the british gov will turn on the british and the American gov will turn on the Americans.  The same with canada or brazil whatever.

Quoted: Why do you guys think you're so free? Your lives are just as controlled as the rest of us. The only perceived freedom you have over us is the right to defend yourselves with a gun America has always been a violent society, from the days of the Wild West to the present. Now, I'm not about to say life is cheap in the US, that is clearly not the case, but I do think that you have become somewhat de-sensitized to murder and death. I read the threads on here and see American news on CNN and Fox as well as MSNBC so it's not as if I don't know what's going on. I also visit the US and see the local news channels when I'm there and I do get the opinion that there are some quarters that are rather blase about murder and death etc. I also read the weekly Britain bashing threads on here. And I still think this " murder is tolerated, so long as I can carry a gun". America has evolved in a strange way from the rest of us. That's why we find it hard to comprehend sometimes Mark

Its really not so strange.  The old west wasn't actually that violent, it just got portrayed that way because so many stories were written about it - and they of course focused on the shootouts.  As for our modern crime rate - which is worse than the old west and largely confined to the cities - 90% of it is due to our current drug prohibition.  This country was very heavily armed, but very peaceful, up until the drug war in the 1960s.  Take away the drug war and I suspect that the murder rate in this country would be comparable to the murder rate in western europe.  

We're basically not all that different from ya'll except that our system limits the power of the central government to a much greater degree than in europe.  

Good point about the "Wild West."

The West was NOT a voilent period of time.  In fact, the crime rate was much lower due to the immediacy of punishment - BY THE COMMUNITY.

CMOS

It's because people over here use crime to justify further infringements on our liberties that sometimes people view tragedies like this through the lens of gun control/gun rights

Why do you guys think you're so free? Your lives are just as controlled as the rest of us. The only perceived freedom you have over us is the right to defend yourselves with a gun

Oh I think not, and I'm not talking about guns, either.

And what's with overthrowing an 'oppressive .gov', a quaint dream, even try that and you would be hunted down and shot down like dogs by the Army, and no amount of 'Constitutional Rights' would stop that happening… Waco anyone? Koresh fought the 'law' and the 'Law' won.

Quaint dream? Maybe you really don't know how serious some people down here are about keeping our rights at any cost. Waco wasn't a victory for the government, it was a disaster, and it opened people's eyes to just how brutal and incompotent the government can be. Guns or no guns, the security services are always outnumbered. It's only through some level of community support that they're able to function at all. They can't shoot us all, and they know it.

Quoted: Its really not so strange.  The old west wasn't actually that violent, it just got portrayed that way because so many stories were written about it - and they of course focused on the shootouts.  As for our modern crime rate - which is worse than the old west and largely confined to the cities - 90% of it is due to our current drug prohibition.  This country was very heavily armed, but very peaceful, up until the drug war in the 1960s.  Take away the drug war and I suspect that the murder rate in this country would be comparable to the murder rate in western europe.   We're basically not all that different from ya'll except that our system limits the power of the central government to a much greater degree than in europe.

So, America is full of crime. We all know that. Unfortunately it is also becoming imperative that you have a firearm for self defense. That is not the case here....yet.
I do not know one person who has ever been threatened with a firearm and know very few people who have ever suffered an act of violence.
Now, in most cases, scum kill scum. So be it.
I do envy you in being albe to own and carry handguns, but I can never imagine the situation where I have to pack heat 24/7 and constantly think about defending myself.

mark

Quoted: Quoted: I regular read the BBC news site, and they mention quite a number of shootings that don't make the news  in the USA.  As we all know the UK has banned guns, but............. © BBC MMV Less than 100 people a year are killed by guns in Britain each year. The vast majority of those shootings are 'black on black' and drug related and occur in 4 inner city areas of London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester. Andy

Well, gee here we go again.  So, now that guns are harder to get, the bad guys get creative.  So, what is total number of homicides by any and all methods?

Got get stabbed to death, clubbed to death, or beaten to death, you are still dead, the method notwithstanding.  For that matter, those types of deaths are probably a lot more painful and aren't as quick, thus more pain, than being shot.

That part in blue is exactly what we hear from gun control idiots here with them also disregarding what I have pointed out.  Do you want to sound just like them?

Quoted: So, America is full of crime. We all know that. Unfortunately it is also becoming imperative that you have a firearm for self defense. That is not the case here....yet. I do not know one person who has ever been threatened with a firearm and know very few people who have ever suffered an act of violence. Now, in most cases, scum kill scum. So be it. I do envy you in being albe to own and carry handguns, but I can never imagine the situation where I have to pack heat 24/7 and constantly think about defending myself. mark

You really don't "need" to pack heat in this country either, except for a few select bad neighborhoods, which I'm sure London has its share of.  Having lived in 4 different states, I can say that I only know one person who has had a criminal point a gun at them, and that was a home invasion here in Texas.  None of my family in Nebraska pack heat, and I'm the only person in my circle of friends (other than the FBI guy) who regularly carries a gun.  I believe that only about 10% of Texas residents even have a CHL.  People on this board are just different, and like to be prepared.  For the most part, our crime rate is like yours in that the scum kill the scum.  We just have bigger scum wars because of the drug prohibition.  Most of the violence is various criminal gangs fighting over "turf" to sell illegal narcotics.  If walgreens carried them it would be an entirely different story.  

I think our citizens also tend to have less of a tolerance for assault and battery, robbery,etc,which make up vastly more of the violent crime statistics than our homicides do. There's the feeling here that an unarmed assailant(s) that you can't run from is just as justifiable a target for an armed citizen. From the limited number of UK guys I've talked to, it seems that the thought of killing an unarmed or simple weaponed assailant (broken beer bottle for instance) of the "hooligan" type is unjust. I doubt most Americans feel that way.

You UK fellas are correct in one sense; statistically we don't need guns to protect ourselves in our nice upper class neighborhoods. We probably don't need seatbelts statistically either, but it's sure nice to have one on.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I regular read the BBC news site, and they mention quite a number of shootings that don't make the news  in the USA.  As we all know the UK has banned guns, but............. © BBC MMV Less than 100 people a year are killed by guns in Britain each year. The vast majority of those shootings are 'black on black' and drug related and occur in 4 inner city areas of London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester. Andy So???  Less than 100 people per year are killed in foul play total in Britain?  Or is it that they are killed by other means?  I'm sure the folks that do die every so often at the hands of a criminal are happy to do so to make society feel better about guns.  I mean after all you really can't ever defend yourself with one... it's just so impractical. Figures for 2002, total homocides 886, of which 97 were with firearms. Britain has one of the highest per capita gun ownership rates in the Western world… LEGALLY owned Rifles @ 1.5 Million, Shotguns @ 5 Million, not bad for a 'disarmed' population of 60 Million. It is estimated there could be up to another 2-5 million unregistered weapons in circulation as well, handguns are very easy to obtain if you are a criminal and really want one. ANdy

Ok so there are 886 people in the dirt last year.  What percentage of them might have lived if they were allowed and were interested in keeping a defensive weapon, instead of assuming they would be protected?  I can't answer that but common sense tells me more than a couple.

Second, that makes the "reported" Homiside rate in Britain about 0.015 per 1000 people or about 1 in 60,000 odds of taking a dirt nap there.  In the US that rate *is* higher, about 0.06 per 1000 so maybe roughly 1 in 15000 odds?  So it's better odds than the lottery in either nation.  However, I read that the UK reports crimes differently in that cases that are not resolved are not counted.  I'm not sure about that but if true that means raw numbers will be lower and makes it hard to really compare.

Now look at robbery....
England - 7 per 1000
US - 4 per 1000

Wait a minute?  I thought we were all cowboys and violent killers over here?  Why aren't we robbing each other with greater frequency here?  If our guns are keeping the streets so deadly here what is doing it there with greater effectiveness?  Those are pretty good odds there that you may be involved in a robbery.  I certainly like my odds of keeping my property and maybe my life living where I can carry my firearm with me during the day.  


How about assualt....
England - 15 per 1000
US - 7 per 1000

Again, if we are the more violent culture why is it that we are not beating each other at a greater rate?  The odds just became good that a British citizen will face an assualt.  1  in 66 (roughly 1 in 120 here) will face one.  I know they won't all be life threatening or injurious, but certainly a few will be.  Why shouold you not have the right to meet that threat if it developes in a way that protects YOU as a person who has comitted no crime other than to be in public?


I get sick of the bloody streets in the US bullshit shoveled up by other nations.  Gun control has precious little to do with crime rates as some nations that allow more fearsome weapons have higher and lower rates than the US and some bastions of progressive gun control have higher and lower rates than the US.  The only crime rate I give a flying fuck about is the crime that happens to me.  If the wheel stops on my number some day, I'd like to at least have the oppertunity to fight back and survive, rather than have a DA somewhere stand before a jury with my smiling picture saying "bring justice for him".  That's what it's about.  Crime statistics are nothing but a tool to make the individual irrelevant.


www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cnscj.pdf