Consider how the political climate has been balkanizing our society with so-called "multiculteralism."

Consider in the neighborhood of 25 million (give or take a few) illegal immigrants within our borders, most of whom still feel allegiance to their countries of origin and not the United States.

Consider the potential for economic and social upheaval if we experience massive terrorist attacks (some say it's not a matter of "if").

Put all of this into a big pot and stir vigorously.

Does it begin to resemble the latter days of the Roman Empire?

Quoted: Is the Wheel Of History turning again?

When has the Wheel of History not been turning?

This is a good place to repeat the (probably apochryphal) Alexander Tytler quote:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.  From that moment on the majority aloways votes for the candidate promising the most from the public treasury with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.  These nations have progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith, From faith to great courage, From courage to liberty, From liberty to abundance, From abundance to selfishness, From selfishness to complacency, From complacency to apathy, From apathy to dependency, From dependency back again into bondage.

I'd place us at "dependency."

Quoted: Does it begin to resemble the latter days of the Roman Empire?

Only if you substitute a new religion at the last moment.

+1

Quoted: This is a good place to repeat the (probably apochryphal) Alexander Tytler quote: A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.  From that moment on the majority aloways votes for the candidate promising the most from the public treasury with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.  These nations have progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith, From faith to great courage, From courage to liberty, From liberty to abundance, From abundance to selfishness, From selfishness to complacency, From complacency to apathy, From apathy to dependency, From dependency back again into bondage. I'd place us at "dependency."

I'd place 15% of the population in 'dependency'. The rest of us are somewhere in the red zone.

Quoted: Quoted: Is the Wheel Of History turning again?   When has the Wheel of History not been turning?

Of course history marches on.

I mean in the sense that patterns are repeating.  The Roman Empire crumbled from within.

When I look at the recent trends that brought us to the situation we are in today, and project them unchecked into the future, I'm really concerned about the kind of America that my children and grandchildren will live in.

Quoted: Quoted: Does it begin to resemble the latter days of the Roman Empire? Only if you substitute a new religion at the last moment.

You're right, atheism.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does it begin to resemble the latter days of the Roman Empire? Only if you substitute a new religion at the last moment. You're right, atheism.

Ouch.  That's gonna leave a mark.

How about secular humanism?  It worked well for the French Revolution.

The South will rise again!

We are Americans - We shall adapt and overcome - Amercia works it's sh#t out!

As long as a fracrtion of us keep the faith in this Nation  - we shall survive!


                                                                                                                                 

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is the Wheel Of History turning again?   When has the Wheel of History not been turning? Of course history marches on. I mean in the sense that patterns are repeating.  The Roman Empire crumbled from within. When I look at the recent trends that brought us to the situation we are in today, and project them unchecked into the future, I'm really concerned about the kind of America that my children and grandchildren will live in.

That's how I meant it, the patterns just keep repeating.

I find myself concerned about the future for my kids, too, although when I think about it logically, there's never been a better time or place in history than right here, right now. We live far better than most of the world. Better than even royalty just a few generations ago. Our houses are big enough for multiple families in almost any other culture. We're the only country in the world where the poor people are obese.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does it begin to resemble the latter days of the Roman Empire? Only if you substitute a new religion at the last moment. You're right, atheism. Ouch.  That's gonna leave a mark. How about secular humanism?  It worked well for the French Revolution.

I still find it hilarious that "non belief" in religion qualifies as "religion" to some people.

Obviously you all subscribe to the religion of Flying Spaghetti Monster insofar as you reject his existence.

Quoted: We're the only country in the world where the poor people are obese.

I heard somebody commenting on the radio about this.

The USA has redefined the word "poverty."

For much of the world, poverty means dirt floors, emaciated faces, distended bellies, and not having the strength to shoo the flies off you.

Here, many people in "poverty" are obese.

Go figger.

Quoted: I don't think we're that weak or stupid dispite what the liberal media repeats endlessly. There's tons and tons of good news that they just completely ignore. Anything that's good doesn't get reported. Record growth in home ownership ... focus on the homeless. We won the cold war and now have the only global military ... focus on some private pointing at naked women in Abu Grabbe. Liberate a country and set it's people free ... focus on the nearly two thousand that died. It's so over the top that it's silly yet 98% of the people in America don't even see the wool being pulled over their eyes - damn sheep.

I assume that putting it in red shows the contradiction, no?

Quoted: Consider how the political climate has been balkanizing our society with so-called "multiculteralism." Consider in the neighborhood of 25 million (give or take a few) illegal immigrants within our borders, most of whom still feel allegiance to their countries of origin and not the United States. Consider the potential for economic and social upheaval if we experience massive terrorist attacks (some say it's not a matter of "if"). Put all of this into a big pot and stir vigorously. Does it begin to resemble the latter days of the Roman Empire?

Yes.

Multiculturalism is rooted in atheism.  The ascendency of atheism will insure that Islam and the incoming tide of Mexican culture will not be resisted.  Expect Mexican style democracy in the US.

The wheel of history is turning, and you're just a styrofoam cup on the highway of time.

Quoted: The USA has redefined the word "poverty."

Good point.

Whether this is good, or bad, depends on your point of view.

All democracies have collapsed or will collapse. That is why the Founding Fathers built us a Constitutional Republic.

But with a C.R. politicians can't hang carrots out to illiterates and use the divide and conquer tatics to keep the people at each others throats instead of keeping their eyes on the ball.

Therefore, some years back, devious people decided to make us into a "democracy." Today, most people think we are a democracy, and I guess, in reality, we are.

So, yeah, we're gonna follow the wheel of history.  

Yes we are rome, after the pax romana

Quoted: All democracies have collapsed or will collapse. That is why the Founding Fathers built us a Constitutional Republic. But with a C.R. politicians can't hang carrots out to illiterates and use the divide and conquer tatics to keep the people at each others throats instead of keeping their eyes on the ball. Therefore, some years back, devious people decided to make us into a "democracy." Today, most people think we are a democracy, and I guess, in reality, we are. So, yeah, we're gonna follow the wheel of history.

And that is sadly accurate.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think we're that weak or stupid dispite what the liberal media repeats endlessly. There's tons and tons of good news that they just completely ignore. Anything that's good doesn't get reported. Record growth in home ownership ... focus on the homeless. We won the cold war and now have the only global military ... focus on some private pointing at naked women in Abu Grabbe. Liberate a country and set it's people free ... focus on the nearly two thousand that died. It's so over the top that it's silly yet 98% of the people in America don't even see the wool being pulled over their eyes - damn sheep. I assume that putting it in red shows the contradiction, no? The "we" is that two percent that's here and our like mined.

Gotcha!

Quoted: Quoted: All democracies have collapsed or will collapse. That is why the Founding Fathers built us a Constitutional Republic. But with a C.R. politicians can't hang carrots out to illiterates and use the divide and conquer tatics to keep the people at each others throats instead of keeping their eyes on the ball. Therefore, some years back, devious people decided to make us into a "democracy." Today, most people think we are a democracy, and I guess, in reality, we are. So, yeah, we're gonna follow the wheel of history.   And that is sadly accurate.

On this, we are in total agreement.

wheels keep on turning.
There are always those who have resisted the tides of history - let the swiss be our guiding light.

Quoted: I still find it hilarious that "non belief" in religion qualifies as "religion" to some people. Obviously you all subscribe to the religion of Flying Spaghetti Monster insofar as you reject his existence.

Belief system.  Is that a synonym for "religion" to you?  If so, or not, no big deal.

That belief system/philosophy/worldview naturally resulted in a mindset that people were accountable to nobody higher than themselves.  We can see how a similar attitude toward "religion" affects the behavior of communist governments, which have slaughtered millions with the idea that they will not answer to God for it.

Note: I am not saying all atheists/agnostics/anti-religionists are murdering communists, so please don't jump on that angle.

The point is whether or not people see themselves accountable in an eternal sense for their actions.

John Adams understood this when he considered the liberty our Constitution gave to the People, and the restraints it placed on government power.

ETA: I have no knowledge of or experience with this spaghetti monster of which you speak.  Is this a thing you worship on your planet?

Quoted: Quoted: I still find it hilarious that "non belief" in religion qualifies as "religion" to some people. Obviously you all subscribe to the religion of Flying Spaghetti Monster insofar as you reject his existence. Belief system.  Is that a synonym for "religion" to you?  If so, or not, no big deal. That belief system/philosophy/worldview naturally resulted in a mindset that people were accountable to nobody higher than themselves.  We can see how a similar attitude toward "religion" affects the behavior of communist governments, which have slaughtered millions with the idea that they will not answer to God for it. Note: I am not saying all atheists/agnostics/anti-religionists are murdering communists, so please don't jump on that angle. The point is whether or not people see themselves accountable in an eternal sense for their actions. John Adams understood this when he considered the liberty our Constitution gave to the People, and the restraints it placed on government power. ETA: I have no knowledge of or experience with this spaghetti monster of which you speak.  Is this a thing you worship on your planet?

I guess this explains why, throughout history, Christians have never murdered or repressed anyone. It also explains why all Christians today are honorable upstanding citizens.

Quoted: I guess this explains why, throughout history, Christians have never murdered or repressed anyone. It also explains why all Christians today are honorable upstanding citizens.

Trying to make your point using exceptions and extremes?

"I saw where a televangelist was convicted and did time!  That proves all those Christians are a bunch of no good thieves!"

Right.  

Ahhh...a fellow student of Roman history.

A question I posed lo those many years ago to my own perfesser of ancient history.

These and other factors are in synchronous parallel so closely with the history of Rome that I find it really SCARY!

Many of the same pressures that ended Rome are plagueing us right now.  Our founders recognized some of this might be inevitable and crafted our government so as to help forestall such a collapse.  That said, we will be unable to hold it off forever IF we don't fix some of the issues facing us now.

Here is what I see as the primary cause of the fall of the Roman Empire:

-A series of BAD emperors

-A population so far separated from their roots that they had forgotten what made them great

-Religious strife and upheaval

-Constant warring and incursions from foreign barbarians

-Constant political infighting

-Ever increasing taxes to pay for the huge army required to maintain the borders

-Rampant multiculturalism.  Even during the Republic, conquered foes were often permitted to become Roman citizens....BUT THEY HAD TO ASSIMILATE!  They HAD to BECOME Romans...NOT Central Americans simply living in the USA, but retaining loyalties to their home state.

-They lost their moral compass.

-The pillars of a society collapsed.  Libraries disappeared.  The constabulary failed to enforce the laws and banditry flourished.  The frontier armies went home.  Local, regional and the central governments all collapsed.  The home and family took over as the centers of life...led by the rising Church and the new oligarch noble class.  The Empire sank into the Dark Ages...or as described by many of my sunnier colleagues, The Middle Ages.

This did not happen overnight...it actually took a couple of hundred years, but in the end, Rome passed into history.

Yes...I see parallels and it scares me.

Quoted: Quoted: I guess this explains why, throughout history, Christians have never murdered or repressed anyone. It also explains why all Christians today are honorable upstanding citizens. Trying to make your point using exceptions and extremes? "I saw where a televangelist was convicted and did time!  That proves all those Christians are a bunch of no good thieves!" Right.

Actually, it seems that is what you are trying to do. Your point seems to be that people without belief in a higher being are more likely to murder.

What religion were the NAZIs??

Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you bad.

Being an athiest doesn't automatically make you bad.

That is my only point.

(edit for really bad spelling)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I guess this explains why, throughout history, Christians have never murdered or repressed anyone. It also explains why all Christians today are honorable upstanding citizens. Trying to make your point using exceptions and extremes? "I saw where a televangelist was convicted and did time!  That proves all those Christians are a bunch of no good thieves!" Right.   Actually, it seems that is what you are trying to do. Your point seems to be that people without belief in a higher being are more likely to murder.

Let's try 'less likely to accept responsibility for your actions'.

What religion were the NAZIs??

They weren't practicing Christians, that's for sure.

Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you bad.

Of course not.

Being an athiest doesn't automatically make you bad.

But it does keep you from recognizing your inherent 'badness'.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I guess this explains why, throughout history, Christians have never murdered or repressed anyone. It also explains why all Christians today are honorable upstanding citizens. Trying to make your point using exceptions and extremes? "I saw where a televangelist was convicted and did time!  That proves all those Christians are a bunch of no good thieves!" Right.   Actually, it seems that is what you are trying to do. Your point seems to be that people without belief in a higher being are more likely to murder. What religion were the NAZIs?? Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you bad. Being an athiest doesn't automatically make you bad. That is my only point. (edit for really bad spelling)

The Nazis were members of the Thule Occult Society.

Quoted: Actually, it seems that is what you are trying to do. Your point seems to be that people without belief in a higher are more likely to murder.

Lack of a sense of accountability tends to remove self restraint from people.  John Adams understood this when he said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Compare the societies emerging from the American Revolution and the French Revolution.  They occurred in the same period in history.  One resulted in a reasonably stable, orderly society (granted, we had our growing pains) and the other gave birth to the Terror in which the Guillotine was invented and put to extensive use.

What was the difference?  The philosophical foundations of the societies.  Adams made the comment above because he understood that for society at large to responsibly manage the liberty the Constitution gave them, they had to be self-restraining, and that was the result of seeing themselves accountable to God for their actions.

Popular thought in France was based in secular humanism with not accountability to anyone higher than themselves.

What religeon were the NAZIs??

The Nazis practiced a spirrituality based in pagan Norse mythology.

Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you bad.

We are in agreement.

Being an athiest doesn't automatically make you bad.

Again, we are in agreement.  

The Judeo-Christian value system has been the driving force for the sense of morality in American society.  It's residual effects have culturally carried over to many Americans who would not call themselves Christians.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I guess this explains why, throughout history, Christians have never murdered or repressed anyone. It also explains why all Christians today are honorable upstanding citizens. Trying to make your point using exceptions and extremes? "I saw where a televangelist was convicted and did time!  That proves all those Christians are a bunch of no good thieves!" Right.   Actually, it seems that is what you are trying to do. Your point seems to be that people without belief in a higher being are more likely to murder. What religion were the NAZIs?? Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you bad. Being an athiest doesn't automatically make you bad. That is my only point. (edit for really bad spelling) The Nazis were members of the Thule Occult Society.

All I know is that Hitler started as a Catholic - you figure it out from there

Quoted: All I know is that Hitler started as a Catholic - you figure it out from there

Figure what out?

That he abandoned even the most basic tenets of his faith?

Let's try to be halfway serious for a moment here, mmkay?

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.  Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.  In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose....  The wind was not the beginning.  There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time.  But it was a beginning."

Quoted: ETA: I have no knowledge of or experience with this spaghetti monster of which you speak.  Is this a thing you worship on your planet?

Heathen.

Flying Spaghetti Monsterism

You can't beat a birthrate....
Israel will be the canary in a coal mine for us.

Quoted: Quoted: ETA: I have no knowledge of or experience with this spaghetti monster of which you speak.  Is this a thing you worship on your planet? Heathen. Flying Spaghetti Monsterism upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg/800px-Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

did you see this blasphemy?