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Posted: 10/5/2005 5:30:26 AM EDT
So will stealth be up for sale to anybody now…
 India could get US invite for F-35 first flight SHIV AROOR Posted online: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 at 0000 hours IST NEW DELHI, SEPTEMBER 27: As Washington's most ambitious and classified fighter aircraft—the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)—readies for a first flight next year, the Pentagon is preparing to extend a special invitation to New Delhi to witness the event at Fort Worth, Texas. This is significant given that India is not a partner country in the multi-billion dollar project. A senior source at the US Embassy here told The Indian Express, ‘‘In a sense, the programme is closed to non-partner countries. But with the new Indo-US strategic partnership, the US government feels it is appropriate to keep India abreast of the latest technology. It augurs well for future cooperation.’’ Expected to be a high-profile event, the invitees are likely to include the IAF chief, the Defence Secretary and senior South Block officials. The JSF project—primarily an Anglo-US project—has developed the F-35, an advanced fifth generation fighter for all three forces, which is cheap to procure and maintain, and also capable of performing all possible roles. The partner countries in the project are Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark and Norway, who will induct the fighter over the next 15 years. A spokesperson for the JSF project told The Indian Express in an e-mail from Fort Worth, ‘‘I can tell you that F-35 JSF partnership in the strict sense of the term is closed, but we anticipate selling many F-35s to non-partner nations.’’ He added, ‘‘As you may know, the decision to allow the sale of F-35s to any country is made by the US government, not by Lockheed-Martin.’’ The invitation to Fort Worth, while significant in itself, comes as part of a long line of specific gestures by Washington: Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi took flight in a US Navy F/A-18 Super Hornet at the Paris Air Show earlier this year; former chief S Krishnaswamy took off in an Israeli F-16 Falcon in October last year; Indian teams have witnessed the Patriot-3 in action at White Sands, New Mexico; and India’s interest in the cutting-edge Boeing P-8A maritime multi-mission jet has been received favourably by the Office of Defence Cooperation. ‘‘The Super Hornet and Falcon are formal contenders for commercial purchases by New Delhi, but witnessing an event of this magnitude is symbolic. It shows that the Bush administration is willing to involve India, even at a non-critical level, in its most exclusive projects,’’ the US Embassy official pointed out. http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=78964 |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 5:40:22 AM EDT
[#1]
Well they should have them...
I mean if Lockheed-Martin is going to have their tier 1 tech support in India, shouldnt they be allowed to fly the planes too? 
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:01:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Any thoughts from members in the UK? You blokes have dealt with India for a long time.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:09:28 AM EDT
[#3]
The Great Satan USofA is very smart. First we pressure the Pakistanis into cooperating with terrorist hunts. Second, we sell our F-16 Block version ABCDEFG's to Pakistan as an incentive. Third, scare the Indians and they look into buying the F-35. Fourth, the Israelis will sell air-air missiles to both India and Pakistan because they owe us a lot of money.
It's all a conspiracy of 'dem Jews and Christian fundamentalists to get non Judeo-Christian brown people to fight each other. 
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:17:09 AM EDT
[#4]
I'm not keen on this at all… there have been intelligence leaks via India to Russia in the past due to India's close relationship with Russian arms companies. You will need to assume that the specs of anything you sell to India will get to Russia. The stuff we sell them is hardley top grade, they have never had access to the US developed 1st grade equipment to date. We also have had our own problems in the past were Indian technicians and scientists living and working in Britain were suspected of supplying classified data to their 'Mother Country'…(The USA has the same problem with Chinese Scientists apparently), although that stopped in the late 80's when a number of Indian Scientists working on defence contracts commited 'suicide'… ANdy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:21:39 AM EDT
[#5]
So the most classified fighter is out in the open? 
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:25:34 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:33:57 AM EDT
[#7]
I heard a top level aerospace guy say: If I can tell you about it, it's obsolete, its replacement is flying, and the replacement for the replacement is being built. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:42:34 AM EDT
[#8]
Who cares about Indian leaks? There's probably a secret main computer line open at all times between Lockheed and China anyway. You know that after that the information is free to any dirtbag nation on earth. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:43:24 AM EDT
[#9]
Why not? We'll never actually field more than a few dozen anyway. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:50:39 AM EDT
[#10]
Picture! They always forget the picture!
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Posted: 10/5/2005 6:58:31 AM EDT
[#11]
The lift fan on the STOVL version is pretty cool technology.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:00:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Yep. Cool. And only that. The STOVL version gives up too much to be worthwhile. Too much fuel (range) and too much payload. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:03:42 AM EDT
[#13]
I agree… Britain was going to buy an all STVOL fleet, but the reduction in payload and shrinking the bomb bays means that decision is being reviewed and we may go for CTOL instead. Should know soon. ANdy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:05:32 AM EDT
[#14]
tag
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:11:26 AM EDT
[#15]
The JetBlue guys were able to recover from the nose wheel not rotating properly into alignment. Technology is fallible. Human maintainers are fallible. A screwup in the very tricky and complex lift fan and systems will be catastrophic. The Harrier's system is somewhat simpler but that jet has a pretty harsh reputation for safety. ETA: In my opinion, of course. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:12:29 AM EDT
[#16]
What about your carriers? I thought you were going to wait on catapult technology to see if the US can get the electromagnetic ones to work? Aren't you going to have a few-year gap if you don't go STOVL for the fleet? |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:14:23 AM EDT
[#17]
It looks (based on the few numbers that FAS has) that the F-35B will be an improvement over the AV-8B that the Marines currently fly. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:15:58 AM EDT
[#18]
If I remember correctly the new RN carriers will have removable ski jumps. So that whould they decide to go away from the STOL they could do so easily. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:27:37 AM EDT
[#19]
We may be building a third carrier in co-opeartion with the Phrench who want one as well… the Phrench have suitable cataplults already developed for the Charles De Gaulle. If we do join with the Phrench we might end up using the Phrench steam catapults… and thats another decison I'll know the answer to soon. ANdy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:29:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Phrench catapults on British ships!?!  Someone had better put the Admiralty on suicide watch.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:39:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Well, if we want to counter balance China, doesn't it make sense to increase ties with India?
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:49:48 AM EDT
[#22]
.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 7:50:57 AM EDT
[#23]
Which isn't much to begin with: 1. Slow. 2. Low payload. 3. WORST fixed-wing safety record in the US Armed Forces. Given the inherent limitations of STOVL, it's a bad concept to begin with. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:03:18 AM EDT
[#24]
well the harrier can carry a lot of ordnance at the cost of STOVL performance. but they dont call it "the carolina lawn dart" for nothin
i think this india thing might be a strategic play to get an ally with top tier hardware in china's back yard. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:04:59 AM EDT
[#25]
Its India's wet dream. The damn article is from an Indian paper. Its not going to happen, so don't worry about it.
Remember the Saudis were going to get F-22's...according to them about ten years ago. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:15:26 AM EDT
[#26]
Bingo. FYI, I remember reading that Lock-Mart was looking at a watered-down version of the F-35 for export,ie; avionics not as powerful and I believe even, somehow a reduction in stealth ability.  (YMMV) A lot of the other nations on board were pissed about it because they thought they were going to get the Escalade but end up with the Tahoe. However it's still better then anything else out there and they just have to take their lumps. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:16:49 AM EDT
[#27]
The last number I have heard was still an order over 1,700. QDR will prolly' change that but it's still a metric buttload of planes. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:20:14 AM EDT
[#28]
F-35C is where it's at. 
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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:38:23 AM EDT
[#29]
I take there's a signifigant problem with just using our catapult designs? |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 9:34:19 AM EDT
[#30]
It's quoting US Embassy sources… |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 9:35:47 AM EDT
[#31]
Your current design is too big!… ANdy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 9:37:18 AM EDT
[#32]
Only the US, Britain and Austraila are getting the full-fat, full-on stealth version. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 9:47:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Yeah, I love their curry's Mark |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 9:51:53 AM EDT
[#34]
Indeed. The Harrier for the USMC is a POS of an aircraft and program. To quote me father, an O6 fighter pilot of more than 20 years, "The only reason we have the harrier is that grunt USMC generals can see the harrier pilots land in the dirt next to them, and sleep in the same tents" The top leadership of the USMC has always disliked land based fixed wing aircraft. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 9:55:58 AM EDT
[#35]
 That's BETTER!!!! Royal Navy colours… I'll let you know what it feels like after I've sat my fat ass in it next July!  ANdy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 10:05:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Didn't take you too long to change the colours, RN or bust. I have a feeling your going to be a tad thinner by next July, either by Doctor's and Mrs. Vito's orders.  Please post pics if possible of the F-35 in RN colours next July. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 10:05:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Mark my words, your going to see alot more adtech military hardware going to India in the near future, the India/Pakistan arms race is simply a proxie conflict for the US and PRC.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 10:08:06 AM EDT
[#38]
The big wings just look funny. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 10:17:33 AM EDT
[#39]
Its hard to say its a POS. USMC bought the Harrier to fill a hole in their doctrine -- how do you provide organic close air support to a branch that's, by nature, light on its feet? Navy's never been that good at it and in a lot of situations the carrier is too far away to provide organic support. I think we've repeatedly seen the vulnerability of rotary wing compared to fixed wing. Air Force birds and USMC's F-18s need real runways. Harrier can operate off a short stretch of straight road. The problem is, its a one-hit wonder. If you don't need the STOVL capability, then you've got a complicated, subsonic plane that's somewhere between a slow F16 and a lightly armored A10. In a variety of scenarios, though, Harrier could have saved the day. We just never actually found ourselves in those positions. Ironically, with all the talk of how much STOVL F35 sucks, the Air Force is seriously considering swapping some of its conventional F35s for STOVL to provide forward-based CAS. Someone's still worried about the vulnerability of relying on planes that need nice long, smooth runways. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 10:28:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Where in Iraq or Afghanistan are AV-8Bs landing that F/A-18s are not/can not? Are they really being deployed to improvised runways or is that just a vision that never materialized? |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 10:47:12 AM EDT
[#41]
You'll love it, it has a built in EOTS/IRST. Hoo-rray!
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Posted: 10/5/2005 10:57:46 AM EDT
[#42]
Vision that hasn't been required. If we ever need to take on someone with the capability to take out runways (or worse, carriers) we might need to use it. Its an expensive insurance policy, but there are certainly some who think we need it. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 11:06:19 AM EDT
[#43]
Remember, they`re just being invited to a demonstration. Basically a canned PR exercise. Will news of it`s capabilities get out? Of course, but in the game of realpolitik that should be expected. Letting the indians see the X-35 in action reassures them they picked the "right" side to be on. Their reports to the Russians will undoubtedly cause heartburn at some Russian & Chinese design bureaus. It also reminds the Pakis that they haven`t made their Uncle Sugar totally happy with their performance in the WOT. Besides the thought of Indian X-35s will probably give the Commanding General of the PLAAF a small stroke.
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Posted: 10/5/2005 11:08:35 AM EDT
[#44]
We don't produce our own small arms, we allow the chinese and others to steal our secrets and we share our secrets with possible enemies.
Yup, were on the road to hell and it's downhill and we're picking up speed. |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 11:20:30 AM EDT
[#45]
 That'll teach 'em... 
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Posted: 10/5/2005 11:30:00 AM EDT
[#46]
Yup… see what you get when you have our input! Long range IRST with laser ranging… cool! F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Mission Systems Sensors Providing an Unprecedented Level of Tactical Situational Awareness A fully integrated weapon system allows F-35 pilots to positively identify and precisely strike fixed and moving targets in high-threat environments in day/night, all-weather conditions. The F-35’s flight-proven sensors provide true multi-role, multi-mission capability--autonomously, cooperatively, or remotely (utilizing information from off-board sources). The mission systems suite of sensors provides high-resolution imaging of targets at standoff ranges, permitting rapid and precise acquisition of targets while minimizing exposure to enemy threats. This gives the pilot an unprecedented level of situational awareness through technologies such as helmet-mounted display, portal-driven projection head-down displays and 3-D audio. AN/APG-81 Multi-Mission Active Electronically Scanned (AESA) Radar Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is developing the AN/APG-81 active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar for the F-35. This advanced multi-function radar will enable pilots to effectively engage airborne and ground targets at long range for enhanced survivability. The AESA radar provides precision, time-critical, all-weather targeting through advanced air-to-air combat capabilities and high-resolution air-to-ground mapping. It also supports automatic target cueing to minimize time in the target area. Distributed Aperture System (DAS) In a joint effort with Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is spearheading the work on the electro-optical distributed aperture system (DAS). This system will provide a unique protective infrared sphere around the aircraft for missile warning, aircraft warning, day/night pilot vision, smart deployment of countermeasures and augmented fire-control capability. For offensive operations, DAS provides day/night imaging and targeting without the use of night vision goggles, and off-axis targeting of air-to-air missiles. It enables the development of advanced tactics through the use of a shared common operational picture. Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) The same joint venture, with Lockheed Martin in the lead role, is developing the electro-optical targeting system (EOTS). EOTS will provide extended-range detection and precision targeting of ground threats plus long-range detection of air-to-air threats. EOTS combines passive air-to-air detection and track with long-range laser designation and ranging of air and ground targets. http://www.northropgrumman.com/paris2005/paris2005_programs/f35_mss.html |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 2:56:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Your carriers are too small!
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Posted: 10/5/2005 3:28:16 PM EDT
[#48]
The new ones are 65,000 tons and @900ft… we're getting there! ANdy |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 3:42:56 PM EDT
[#49]
The 35 isn't stealth... It is, however, as the plane that will replace the F-16 as our 'Fighter, Lite', also going to become the US's mass-export fighter. The F-22, which IS stealth of a sort, will probably be sold to almost noone (just like the F-15)... |
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Posted: 10/5/2005 3:45:16 PM EDT
[#50]
The Harrier has a reputation for toasting it's exhaust nozzles - the F-35 has the 'fan' to avoid all the problems that come from attempting to direct hot jet exhaust into places it does not want to go... |
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