Our new Police Dept. Tazer policy.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Our new Police Dept. Tazer policy. (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:00:12 AM EDT

This debate will never end. It looks like Nashvile isnt the only one who is doing this. From the news last night it seems that there are approx two dozen dept. nationwide that have quite useing them.

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Police are restricting the use of Tasers in the aftermath of the death of a young man who died after being shocked with them 19 times.

Police Chief Ronal Serpas said Friday that effective immediately, Tasers will be used by police supervisors only. Also, beginning Saturday, the supervisors will receive training on how to use them.

Patrick Lee, 21, was shocked into submission by Nashville patrol officers a week ago after being kicked out of a bar and stripping nude. He died two days later at a hospital.

Serpas said the department is involved in two nationwide studies on the use of Tasers and guidelines on how they should be used.

Lee is the second person to die in Nashville after police used Tasers, which were introduced to the department in November. Walter Lamont Seats died in May after police subdued him with a Taser shock, but an autopsy revealed that he choked on a plastic bag of cocaine that he attempted to swallow.

Lee's family's attorney, Tommy Overton, said a private autopsy indicated that the Taser contributed to his death. The official autopsy is awaiting further toxicology tests, police said.

Officers quoted Lee as saying he had taken drugs, and they said they found five doses of LSD and some marijuana in his belongings.

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:21:17 AM EDT

[#1]

I'm curious as to how the use of a taser killed him two days later. Methinks bullshit on this one.

Edit: Oh, and since only supervisors will have tasers, and supervisors are never around when they truly are needed, it appears Nashville will go back to shooting and beating down instead of stopping and disarming. Watch for both perp and officer injuries to rise.

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:24:41 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
I'm curious as to how the use of a taser killed him two days later. Methinks bullshit on this one.

Well, it is not unheard of for an electrical shock to create an irregular heart beat. It is also not uncommon for it to be fatal after the incident. For instance, in the Navy if someone receives an electrical shock, no matter how slight, it's required that someone maintain a watch on them while they sleep for at least the first night.

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:32:24 AM EDT

[#3]

EVERY FUCKING TIME someone dies after they are tazered, they are either intoxicated or on drugs, or both....

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:33:32 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
EVERY FUCKING TIME someone dies after they are tazered, they are either intoxicated or on drugs, or both....

Every is pretty all encompassing. You have data to back up your claim?

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:37:47 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm curious as to how the use of a taser killed him two days later. Methinks bullshit on this one.

Well, it is not unheard of for an electrical shock to create an irregular heart beat. It is also not uncommon for it to be fatal after the incident. For instance, in the Navy if someone receives an electrical shock, no matter how slight, it's required that someone maintain a watch on them while they sleep for at least the first night.

Interesting. I can see how it works, but I don't see that kind of delay. But then again, I am very hardheaded.

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:46:12 AM EDT

[#6]

I'm curious as to how the use of a taser killed him two days later. Methinks bullshit on this one.

Edit: Oh, and since only supervisors will have taser, and supervisors are never around when they truly are needed, it appears Nashville will go back to shooting and beating down instead of stopping and disarming. Watch for both perp and officer injuries to rise.

I don't think they ever stopped the shooting and beating down of perps.

The family of the deceased had an independent autopsy done. In one day the examiner came back and said that the taser contributed to his death. That was a pretty quick/definitive find in one day from an examiner that the family paid for. There was never a mention of the drugs and his tox screen. Imagine that.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:04:25 AM EDT

[#7]

Lee's family's attorney, Tommy Overton, said a private autopsy indicated that the Taser contributed to his death. The official autopsy is awaiting further toxicology tests, police said.
A private autopsy?? yeah that's impartial.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:07:16 AM EDT

[#8]

Pattern is still holding which is new toy use it unwisely. 19 times?

Torture isn't part of any departments policy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Tazers will be jerked from departmental use and a valuable tool lost due to stupidity. Gee, how hard is it to figure out you need a use policy before you issue a tool.

Here's a tazer guys, go out and use it.

The officers in question here shouldn't have their asses handed to them but the guys in charge should. Instead, they're the only ones with the tool now. How dumb can you get.

Tj

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:12:40 AM EDT

[#9]

The officers in question here shouldn't have their asses handed to them but the guys in charge should. Instead, they're the only ones with the tool now. How dumb can you get.

I agree. The officers have some responsibility in this but the ultimate is for the supervisors. The one hour training class for their use at the academy is a joke.
I guess the supervisors with their new toys will get the same crap lesson.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:13:38 AM EDT

[#10]

go back to Rodney King type beatings I guess

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:15:36 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Lee's family's attorney, Tommy Overton, said a private autopsy indicated that the Taser contributed to his death. The official autopsy is awaiting further toxicology tests, police said.
A private autopsy?? yeah that's impartial.

A god arguemnt could be mad ethat a government Dr doing an autopsy of a person that died in government custody isn't impartial either.

I would be interested in whether or not the independent examiner has complete toxicology reporst completed.

I also think a lot of the "taser caused it" is not due to actual causation, but proximity. It was used close to the death therefore it must have had an impact......................... Hey so were handcuffs, and a hospital in this case. Maybe handcuffs are a silent killer..........................

dport, if someone gets a static electricty discharge does the USN put them under watch? The amperage in a Taser discharge is something like .0026 amps.

19 times seems excessive to me. If what you are doing isn't working, disengage, escalate, or change tactics.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:23:55 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Pattern is still holding which is new toy use it unwisely. 19 times?

Torture isn't part of any departments policy.

Tj

C'mon, now, I'm sure you have seen the video with the OSP Trooper, and the angry drunk, who wrestles with the Trooper before getting tasered, he continues to try and resist, and gets Tasered like 8 times in about 2 minutes............... "you fuckin' hammered me".

When the Trooper tries to handcuff him he gets resisty..............again.

There are some people that don't take the first use of force as the word to the wise it is meant to be.

Calling it torture without knowing the why's of each tasering seems to be jumping to conclusions about the use, and mindset of the officers.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:26:35 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
go back to Rodney King type beatings I guess

Sadly that's where it is heading.

I personaly find the "Billy Club" a valuable tool now forbidden to many departments. The tazer even a better tool is now heading down the same path.

I blame much of it on the media but even more so on interdepartmental rivalaries. There's some really good departments out there with well established Tazer policies and seriously all they have to do is ask to get the information.

Instead we get the same pattern over and over again which is a new department gets Tazers then it takes a number of misuse complaints before they decide they need a policy. Almost every thread we have read here on ARFCOM about misuse has always been the department only had the Tazers a short amount of time and a simple google search on lawsuits will show the same thing.

Tj

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:31:57 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

dport, if someone gets a static electricty discharge does the USN put them under watch? The amperage in a Taser discharge is something like .0026 amps.

First of all depends on the static electricity discharge. If it's from a helo, yes.
Avergage, yes. However, what is a taser designed to do?
It's designed to disrupt muscle control. The heart is a muscle. Seems plausible that if there is ability to disrupt muscle control on the surface then there is an odd chance the heart could be effected as well.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:33:05 AM EDT

[#15]

Drop the tazer and go back to the .40

Problem solved.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:33:35 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Pattern is still holding which is new toy use it unwisely. 19 times?

Torture isn't part of any departments policy.

Tj

C'mon, now, I'm sure you have seen the video with the OSP Trooper, and the angry drunk, who wrestles with the Trooper before getting tasered, he continues to try and resist, and gets Tasered like 8 times in about 2 minutes............... "you fuckin' hammered me". When the Trooper tries to handcuff him he gets resisty..............again.

There are some people that don't take the first use of force as the word to the wise it is meant to be.

Calling it torture without knowing the why's of each tasering seems to be jumping to conclusions about the use, and mindset of the officers.

Not really bud, never heard of a Tazer being used 19 times on anyone ever and I read as much as I can on the topic.

How many shocks are acceptable before its time to get physical?

That's the point. No policy, who's to say? What may be acceptable to an officer on the scene may and most likely will be totally not acceptable to the public especially if on video.

I really had no problem with what I saw on the Rodney King video but it sure made a mess in LA.

Tj

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:36:15 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Instead we get the same pattern over and over again which is a new department gets Tazers then it takes a number of misuse complaints before they decide they need a policy. Almost every thread we have read here on ARFCOM about misuse has always been the department only had the Tazers a short amount of time and a simple google search on lawsuits will show the same thing.

Tj

A couple of things. Any new police tool, unless it's a 2 color ink pen, will result in lawsuits. OC when it first came into use generated complaints, lawsuits, and claims that it caused deaths.

A tazer, with probes, and electricity, is a fairly ominous sounding device. I'm sure the act of shooting probes into another person causes discomfort with some, hearing of such things. As well as the reaction to someone being "electrocuted" inentionally by a LEO.

It's part of the game that new "weapons" will cause some to object to their use. But I think most of it is just like the VPC's dislike of "Assault Weapons", largely based on emotion, and misunderstanding.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:39:51 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Instead we get the same pattern over and over again which is a new department gets Tazers then it takes a number of misuse complaints before they decide they need a policy. Almost every thread we have read here on ARFCOM about misuse has always been the department only had the Tazers a short amount of time and a simple google search on lawsuits will show the same thing.

Tj

A couple of things. Any new police tool, unless it's a 2 color ink pen, will result in lawsuits. OC when it first came into use generated complaints, lawsuits, and claims that it caused deaths.

A tazer, with probes, and electricity, is a fairly ominous sounding device. I'm sure the act of shooting probes into another person causes discomfort with some, hearing of such things. As well as the reaction to someone being "electrocuted" inentionally by a LEO.

It's part of the game that new "weapons" will cause some to object to their use. But I think most of it is just like the VPC's dislike of "Assault Weapons", largely based on emotion, and misunderstanding.

Very true on the assault weapons and I for one was tickled pink when just last year our State Troopers got issued them though media response wasn't quite as enthusiastic.

By establishing a use policy you can at least limit these type complaints and certainly limit lawsuits or put the suits where they belong not necessarily at the officer level.

Tazer no admitting their device can cause death under the right conditions isn't helping the cause here since a stick can cause death under the right conditions or even a palm strike.

I'm afraid my fear is well founded that a valuable tool could be lost to our LEOs due to something as simple as an established use policy.

Tj

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:39:56 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:

dport, if someone gets a static electricty discharge does the USN put them under watch? The amperage in a Taser discharge is something like .0026 amps.

First of all depends on the static electricity discharge. If it's from a helo, yes.
Avergage, yes. However, what is a taser designed to do?
It's designed to disrupt muscle control. The heart is a muscle. Seems plausible that if there is ability to disrupt muscle control on the surface then there is an odd chance the heart could be effected as well.

Again, thousand and thousands of officers, males feamles, young, old, fat, skinny, etc. have been tased in training. NONE has dropped dead.

Next, the Taser contracts skeletal muscles as very forcefully for 5 seconds. If it forcefully contracted a heart muscle for 5 seconds, would the person be alive after the power was shut off?

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:46:38 AM EDT

[#20]

Again, thousand and thousands of officers, males feamles, young, old, fat, skinny, etc. have been tased in training. NONE has dropped dead.

Next, the Taser contracts skeletal muscles as very forcefully for 5 seconds. If it forcefully contracted a heart muscle for 5 seconds, would the person be alive after the power was shut off?

True, but in the class they are only tased once for a max of 3-5 seconds. Now some of these officers are taseing perps for longer durations and multiple times. I think that is where the "issue" is. That goes back to training.
I agree with the tasers being used but I think a better training method should be implimented to the LEO's.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:50:03 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

dport, if someone gets a static electricty discharge does the USN put them under watch? The amperage in a Taser discharge is something like .0026 amps.

First of all depends on the static electricity discharge. If it's from a helo, yes.
Avergage, yes. However, what is a taser designed to do?
It's designed to disrupt muscle control. The heart is a muscle. Seems plausible that if there is ability to disrupt muscle control on the surface then there is an odd chance the heart could be effected as well.

Again, thousand and thousands of officers, males feamles, young, old, fat, skinny, etc. have been tased in training. NONE has dropped dead.

Next, the Taser contracts skeletal muscles as very forcefully for 5 seconds. If it forcefully contracted a heart muscle for 5 seconds, would the person be alive after the power was shut off?

I've been doing a little web search on this subject. The info I've seen is 3.6milliAmps is the average discharge. However, I don't buy that figure.
Why?
Here's the deal:
1milliAmp or .001amp is a faint tingling sensation
5mAs is a slight shock, most people still have muscle control.
Between 6 and 25mA for women and 9 and 30mA for men is when muscle control is lost.
Between 50 and 100mA death is possible.
This is all according to the CDC.
LINK

Now according to one Taser manufacturor, Taser International, the M18 has an ouput of 133mA. LINK

Granted this is for only a split second, but how much is really needed to mess up the heart's delicate and very critical timing/pulse system?

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:50:48 AM EDT

[#22]

I think we are all on the same page here which is the taser is a valuable tool, however recent media links and lawsuits connecting it to over 70 deaths and counting is an alarming trend that could result in sever limitations of its use.

This example having them pulled from the field officers is an example.

Tj

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:52:48 AM EDT

[#23]

My sig line says it all. It's about time the backlash and lawsuits starts. Although I'm not expecting any sweeping change on Taser usage anytime soon.

Posted: 10/1/2005 5:56:42 AM EDT

[#24]

Granted this is for only a split second, but how much is really needed to mess up the heart's delicate and very critical timing/pulse system?

Bling!

This is the door left open for the lawsuits. If this was a medical device instead of law enforcement device the studies on its use would have been far more detailed and company instructional use more detailed.

Instead the departments that buy the devices are left to finding out the hardway. Worse even, they get issued with almost no interdepartmental sharing of information.

This isn't hopeless yet but the trend has continued now for about four years and it has been steadily in the negative.

Tj

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:04:25 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Granted this is for only a split second, but how much is really needed to mess up the heart's delicate and very critical timing/pulse system?

Bling!

This is the door left open for the lawsuits. If this was a medical device instead of law enforcement device the studies on its use would have been far more detailed and company instructional use more detailed.

Instead the departments that buy the devices are left to finding out the hardway. Worse even, they get issued with almost no interdepartmental sharing of information.

This isn't hopeless yet but the trend has continued now for about four years and it has been steadily in the negative.

Tj

Right there with you Tom. The simple fact is if it is passing enough juice to make you involuntarily give up control of your muscles, it is passing enough juice to do some serious harm if not used properly. The marketing on this device has been a sham.

As someone else pointed out, how many police officers are subject to repeated hits from a taser within a short period of time? Just because they ride the lightning does not mean they are doing it under the same conditions and circumstances that a suspect would.

How many of those departments conduct some sort of medical screening before training? How many suspects are medically screened for heart conditions before a taser is used on them?

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:18:03 AM EDT

[#26]

We're not authorized to carry or use tazers. I've been in a few situations that a tazer would have saved the arrested, me or another officer from injuries.

The S.O. carries and uses tazers. I've also been in situations that the tazer subdued a violent person and kept everyone (including the arrested) from being injured.

Take the tazer away and all you have is your hands, ASP/baton or a gun. Before a tazer is used, you usually put hands on. Then go to the tazer. Without the tazer, after hands on, you'll go to the ASP/baton. They are sure to injure a person. I would rater be tazed that hit with an ASP/baton.

Take the tazer away and injuries to arrested persons and officers will go up. More and more people are being violent. Unfortunately, it's a sign of the times. A violent person will hurt someone.

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:25:29 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Again, thousand and thousands of officers, males feamles, young, old, fat, skinny, etc. have been tased in training. NONE has dropped dead.

Next, the Taser contracts skeletal muscles as very forcefully for 5 seconds. If it forcefully contracted a heart muscle for 5 seconds, would the person be alive after the power was shut off?

True, but in the class they are only tased once for a max of 3-5 seconds. Now some of these officers are taseing perps for longer durations and multiple times. I think that is where the "issue" is. That goes back to training.
I agree with the tasers being used but I think a better training method should be implimented to the LEO's.

Tasers run for 5 seconds. They are programmed to do that. They also record how long shocks are, time and date of shock etc.

Plus if the Taser doesn't effect the heart in 3-5 seconds for officers, why even if a longer shock was used would the Taser effect the hear after 6, 8, or 10 seconds. I don't think electricty will alter it's course the longer it is applied.

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:27:33 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
[Tasers run for 5 seconds. They are programmed to do that. They also record how long shocks are, time and date of shock etc.

Plus if the Taser doesn't effect the heart in 3-5 seconds for officers, why even if a longer shock was used would the Taser effect the hear after 6, 8, or 10 seconds. I don't think electricty will alter it's course the longer it is applied.

Again, it depends on where the shock is administrated. The longer a shock is applied the more chance of affecting the heart's timing mechanism.

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:34:11 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
We're not authorized to carry or use tazers. I've been in a few situations that a tazer would have saved the arrested, me or another officer from injuries.

The S.O. carries and uses tazers. I've also been in situations that the tazer subdued a violent person and kept everyone (including the arrested) from being injured.

Take the tazer away and all you have is your hands, ASP/baton or a gun. Before a tazer is used, you usually put hands on. Then go to the tazer. Without the tazer, after hands on, you'll go to the ASP/baton. They are sure to injure a person. I would rater be tazed that hit with an ASP/baton.

Take the tazer away and injuries to arrested persons and officers will go up. More and more people are being violent. Unfortunately, it's a sign of the times. A violent person will hurt someone.

This is exactly what I would not want to hear which is you don't even have the option.

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:34:43 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
[Tasers run for 5 seconds. They are programmed to do that. They also record how long shocks are, time and date of shock etc.

Plus if the Taser doesn't effect the heart in 3-5 seconds for officers, why even if a longer shock was used would the Taser effect the hear after 6, 8, or 10 seconds. I don't think electricty will alter it's course the longer it is applied.

Again, it depends on where the shock is administrated. The longer a shock is applied the more chance of affecting the heart's timing mechanism.

So the old rule that electricity will follow the path of least resistence to "ground" has now changed?

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:38:25 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
[Tasers run for 5 seconds. They are programmed to do that. They also record how long shocks are, time and date of shock etc.

Plus if the Taser doesn't effect the heart in 3-5 seconds for officers, why even if a longer shock was used would the Taser effect the hear after 6, 8, or 10 seconds. I don't think electricty will alter it's course the longer it is applied.

Again, it depends on where the shock is administrated. The longer a shock is applied the more chance of affecting the heart's timing mechanism.

So the old rule that electricity will follow the path of least resistence to "ground" has now changed?

Wow, you are a staunch defender aren't you.

Did you read sentence number one in my post? Here it is again for you:
AGAIN, IT DEPENDS ON WHERE THE SHOCK IS ADMINISTRATED.

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:41:25 AM EDT

[#32]

That's stupid as hell.

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:45:57 AM EDT

[#33]

Here's a little gem of information:

Physiological effects of electricity
Most of us have experienced some form of electric "shock," where electricity causes our body to experience pain or trauma. If we are fortunate, the extent of that experience is limited to tingles or jolts of pain from static electricity buildup discharging through our bodies. When we are working around electric circuits capable of delivering high power to loads, electric shock becomes a much more serious issue, and pain is the least significant result of shock.

As electric current is conducted through a material, any opposition to that flow of electrons (resistance) results in a dissipation of energy, usually in the form of heat. This is the most basic and easy-to-understand effect of electricity on living tissue: current makes it heat up. If the amount of heat generated is sufficient, the tissue may be burnt. The effect is physiologically the same as damage caused by an open flame or other high-temperature source of heat, except that electricity has the ability to burn tissue well beneath the skin of a victim, even burning internal organs.

Another effect of electric current on the body, perhaps the most significant in terms of hazard, regards the nervous system. By "nervous system" I mean the network of special cells in the body called "nerve cells" or "neurons" which process and conduct the multitude of signals responsible for regulation of many body functions. The brain, spinal cord, and sensory/motor organs in the body function together to allow it to sense, move, respond, think, and remember.

Nerve cells communicate to each other by acting as "transducers:" creating electrical signals (very small voltages and currents) in response to the input of certain chemical compounds called neurotransmitters, and releasing neurotransmitters when stimulated by electrical signals. If electric current of sufficient magnitude is conducted through a living creature (human or otherwise), its effect will be to override the tiny electrical impulses normally generated by the neurons, overloading the nervous system and preventing both reflex and volitional signals from being able to actuate muscles. Muscles triggered by an external (shock) current will involuntarily contract, and there's nothing the victim can do about it.

This problem is especially dangerous if the victim contacts an energized conductor with his or her hands. The forearm muscles responsible for bending fingers tend to be better developed than those muscles responsible for extending fingers, and so if both sets of muscles try to contract because of an electric current conducted through the person's arm, the "bending" muscles will win, clenching the fingers into a fist. If the conductor delivering current to the victim faces the palm of his or her hand, this clenching action will force the hand to grasp the wire firmly, thus worsening the situation by securing excellent contact with the wire. The victim will be completely unable to let go of the wire.

Medically, this condition of involuntary muscle contraction is called tetanus. Electricians familiar with this effect of electric shock often refer to an immobilized victim of electric shock as being "froze on the circuit." Shock-induced tetanus can only be interrupted by stopping the current through the victim.

Even when the current is stopped, the victim may not regain voluntary control over their muscles for a while, as the neurotransmitter chemistry has been thrown into disarray. This principle has been applied in "stun gun" devices such as Tasers, which on the principle of momentarily shocking a victim with a high-voltage pulse delivered between two electrodes. A well-placed shock has the effect of temporarily (a few minutes) immobilizing the victim.

Electric current is able to affect more than just skeletal muscles in a shock victim, however. The diaphragm muscle controlling the lungs, and the heart -- which is a muscle in itself -- can also be "frozen" in a state of tetanus by electric current. Even currents too low to induce tetanus are often able to scramble nerve cell signals enough that the heart cannot beat properly, sending the heart into a condition known as fibrillation. A fibrillating heart flutters rather than beats, and is ineffective at pumping blood to vital organs in the body. In any case, death from asphyxiation and/or cardiac arrest will surely result from a strong enough electric current through the body. Ironically, medical personnel use a strong jolt of electric current applied across the chest of a victim to "jump start" a fibrillating heart into a normal beating pattern.

Source

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:47:44 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:

So the old rule that electricity will follow the path of least resistence to "ground" has now changed?

Wow, you are a staunch defender aren't you.

Did you read sentence number one in my post? Here it is again for you:
AGAIN, IT DEPENDS ON WHERE THE SHOCK IS ADMINISTRATED.

Sorry for actually bringing up scientific principles and stuff.

I had no idea electricity would just bounce all over like a .22 inside a ribcage.

The electricty travels between the 2 probes. Apparently the path of least resistance is the surface layers of fat/skin/muscle. Not through the center of the ribcage.

Then again tell us about all the times you have been tasered, and the training you have recieved on the taser, as well as any taserings you hav witnessed.

Posted: 10/1/2005 6:55:22 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

So the old rule that electricity will follow the path of least resistence to "ground" has now changed?

Wow, you are a staunch defender aren't you.

Did you read sentence number one in my post? Here it is again for you:
AGAIN, IT DEPENDS ON WHERE THE SHOCK IS ADMINISTRATED.

Sorry for actually bringing up scientific principles and stuff.

I had no idea electricity would just bounce all over like a .22 inside a ribcage.

The electricty travels between the 2 probes. Apparently the path of least resistance is the surface layers of fat/skin/muscle. Not through the center of the ribcage.

Then again tell us about all the times you have been tasered, and the training you have recieved on the taser, as well as any taserings you hav witnessed.

Where have I said electricity bounces all over the body like a .22? Where? Show me before you start throwing out stupid, and unprovable, allegations.

As I said it depends on the current path through the body. If there is a path that can affect the heart, and there is more than one way of doing this.

What you're arguing, if I understand you, is that there is no way for the electricity from a taser to affect the heart? Is that correct?
You might want to read what I highlighted in red above.

What happens if one probe falls out? Where does the electricity travel to then? To ground?

Body chemistry, which affects the body's resistance, varies from person to person. Did you know that?

Of course, because you've had taser training, that makes you an expert on body chemistry and the effects of electricy on the body right? If so, the prove the links I provided wrong or shut up.

ETA:

Body resistance is not a fixed quantity. It varies from person to person and from time to time. There's even a body fat measurement technique based on a measurement of electrical resistance between a person's toes and fingers. Differing percentages of body fat give provide different resistances: just one variable affecting electrical resistance in the human body. In order for the technique to work accurately, the person must regulate their fluid intake for several hours prior to the test, indicating that body hydration another factor impacting the body's electrical resistance.

Body resistance also varies depending on how contact is made with the skin: is it from hand-to-hand, hand-to-foot, foot-to-foot, hand-to-elbow, etc.? Sweat, being rich in salts and minerals, is an excellent conductor of electricity for being a liquid. So is blood, with its similarly high content of conductive chemicals. Thus, contact with a wire made by a sweaty hand or open wound will offer much less resistance to current than contact made by clean, dry skin.

LINK
One more thing to think about, if current only flowed through skin and fat then defib machines wouldn't work.

Posted: 10/1/2005 7:09:40 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:

So the old rule that electricity will follow the path of least resistence to "ground" has now changed?

Sorry for actually bringing up scientific principles and stuff.

I had no idea electricity would just bounce all over like a .22 inside a ribcage.

The electricty travels between the 2 probes. Apparently the path of least resistance is the surface layers of fat/skin/muscle. Not through the center of the ribcage.

Then again tell us about all the times you have been tasered, and the training you have recieved on the taser, as well as any taserings you hav witnessed.

Where have I said electricity bounces all over the body like a .22? Where? Show me before you start throwing out stupid, and unprovable, allegations. if the Taser effects the heart, it would do it in training where officer are zapped. It hasn't. Try explaining that. The theory that the longer you keep the Taser going the more likely eletricity is to go different places in the body, is scientifically unsound. Path of least resistance.........................

As I said it depends on the current path through the body. If there is a path that can affect the heart, and there is more than one way of doing this. Assuming that somehow someone managed to Taser a person in the front, over the heart, and behind, over the heart, and the 5 second taser current went through the heart, and fully contracted it, would the person be alive after the power is turned off?

What you're arguing, if I understand you, is that there is no way for the electricity from a taser to affect the heart? Is that correct?
You might want to read what I highlighted in red above.

What happens if one probe falls out? Where does the electricity travel to then? To ground? if one probe hits and the other misses.................. there is no circuit to complete. What happens if the negative lead on your car battery come undone................

Body chemistry, which affects the body's resistance, varies from person to person. Did you know that? Really tell us the resistance range of say the lungs, heart, skeletal muscle, fat, and bladder................ Even if resistance different from person to person, the relative resistance of a person individual parts is still in the same relationship.

Of course, because you've had taser training, that makes you an expert on body chemistry and the effects of electricy on the body right? If so, the prove the links I provided wrong or shut up.

Why the "one probe theory"...............................................

Posted: 10/1/2005 7:12:43 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
One more thing to think about, if current only flowed through skin and fat then defib machines wouldn't work.

That's a good one.

A defib has like 400-1,000 more power than a Taser. How does that effect how the electricity flow through the body? Also think about where defib pads get placed.

Posted: 10/1/2005 7:27:45 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
One more thing to think about, if current only flowed through skin and fat then defib machines wouldn't work.

That's a good one.

A defib has like 400-1,000 more power than a Taser. How does that effect how the electricity flow through the body? Also think about where defib pads get placed.

The point is electricity does not ONLY follow the least path of electricity. It follows multiple paths with different amperages. If it didn't work that way your house would have to have balanced loads on every circuit. Unless there is an absolute short, electricity will follow multiple paths. And as I showed in a post above it doesn't take a taser's full 133mA charge to cause heart problems.

ETA: The power output of the defib machine wouldn't matter IF current only followed the least path of resistance AND that path was through the skin/fat tissue. Because if it only followed the least path of resistance, under the above circumstance, NONE of the power from the machine would get to the heart.

Posted: 10/1/2005 7:36:21 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
if the Taser effects the heart, it would do it in training where officer are zapped. It hasn't. Try explaining that. The theory that the longer you keep the Taser going the more likely eletricity is to go different places in the body, is scientifically unsound. Path of least resistance.........................
Path of least resistance is only scientifically sound IF there is an absolute short. Current follows many paths, as long as there is no short nor an open in the circuit. The body provides neither. If current only followed the least amount of resistance as soon as you plugged in an unbalanced load in your home then the electricity in your home would all go to the circuit with the least load and probably blow whatever you had plugged in there(assuming no circuit protection devices such as a breaker or fuse). That would create an open and then all the electricity would go to the circuit with the next least resistance and probably blow that, and so on.
A human's biochemistry varies from time to time and even within the body. As I showed in an earlier post, you don't even need the full power of a taser to disrupt the heart's delicate electrical circuits.
Assuming that somehow someone managed to Taser a person in the front, over the heart, and behind, over the heart, and the 5 second taser current went through the heart, and fully contracted it, would the person be alive after the power is turned off?
It's not just a matter of contracting the heart, the heart uses electrical signals to keep the pulse going. If you manage to disrupt that signal you'll have problems. Maybe not immediately, but the potential is still there. Thus, why the Navy keeps a watch on a shock victim for at least 24 hours.

if one probe hits and the other misses.................. there is no circuit to complete. What happens if the negative lead on your car battery come undone................
That actually depends. If your car has a path to ground, then you will drain your battery. Most cars are isolated from ground by virtue of the rubber tires, but what of a person with no shoes on? You can get shocked by only holding one wire, IF you are connected electrically to ground.

Posted: 10/2/2005 8:19:06 AM EDT

[#40]

You people never cease to amaze me. This is great info to know on tasers.
I wonder if our Police Dept even has half of this info knowledge prior to useing the tasers.

I doubt it.

Posted: 10/2/2005 8:28:13 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
since only supervisors will have tasers, and supervisors are never around when they truly are needed, it appears Nashville will go back to shooting and beating down instead of stopping and disarming. Watch for both perp and officer injuries to rise.

Exactly. One supervisor in the city at a time. Dozens of priority one calls at any given time. how exactly is he going to pick & choose which calls to bring the TASER to on top of performing all the administrative tasks that go along with being a patrol supervisor?

Posted: 10/2/2005 8:43:10 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
EVERY FUCKING TIME someone dies after they are tazered, they are either intoxicated or on drugs, or both....

99% of the time I have to use force on someone they are stoned or drunk. It goes with the territory.

Posted: 10/2/2005 1:31:52 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
One more thing to think about, if current only flowed through skin and fat then defib machines wouldn't work.

That's a good one.

A defib has like 400-1,000 more power than a Taser. How does that effect how the electricity flow through the body? Also think about where defib pads get placed.

If electricity only went from probe to probe in a direct path, a tazer would be useless, and would not disrupt the nervous system enough to effect the victim. From what I can understand, a tazer uses PULSES to do the "damage" [temporary] not amperage. However it needs the amperage to push the pulses thru the body. Since each and every body is different [cept for identical twin, and even then differences DO exist] I can believe there are SOME fatalities, however statistically small in real life they are. I can believe it could disrupt the heart rythem in a few people who later have a heart attack due to the shock AND drug and lifestyle issues. I do not think the tazer should be banned, I do believe that it should be used a bit more responsibly by some who think they have a free pass to use it however they see fit without consequences for poor or a total lack of judgement.

I also would not believe a thing a "private" autopsy found without a second one done by a impartial party unrelated to either the Police or the other side.

Posted: 10/2/2005 1:45:01 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Police are restricting the use of Tasers in the aftermath of the death of a young man who died after being shocked with them 19 times.

<---- The real reason the perp died!

Posted: 10/2/2005 1:51:08 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
I'm curious as to how the use of a taser killed him two days later. Methinks bullshit on this one.

+1.

Deej

Posted: 10/2/2005 1:51:31 PM EDT

[#46]

You can go hands-on with someone who is being tazed, as long as you don't touch somewhere between the probes. Not being there or having the full story, I'm wondering about the 19 applications and why they couldn't move in and restrain him while it was being applied.

Posted: 10/2/2005 1:58:54 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
You can go hands-on with someone who is being tazed, as long as you don't touch somewhere between the probes. Not being there or having the full story, I'm wondering about the 19 applications and why they couldn't move in and restrain him while it was being applied.

Exactly.

I've been "taz'd" during training and have been there when others (read bad guys) were "taz'd". I have been LEO for 10+ years and while I haven't seen everything, I also question why the 19 applications.....I hate to Monday morning quarterback other LEOs, but bad decisions by LEOs often make bad case law and bad policies for the rest of us not abusing this or that piece of equipment...my .02$.

Posted: 10/2/2005 4:10:35 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
You people never cease to amaze me. This is great info to know on tasers.
I wonder if our Police Dept even has half of this info knowledge prior to useing the tasers.

I doubt it.

Maybe NO will hire Serpas back????

One thing the article maybe didn't mention, the guy who died was fueled on LSD. He also stripped nekkid while jousting with the po-po. Not that *I* have ever done it, but I would imagine it's hard to grapple with a sweaty nekkid man & cuff him??? Not to mention one whacked out on acid???

What I did find funny is, his girlfriend & brother said he never drugs other than "maybe pot". Yeah, right.

Chlorine in the gene pool, as far as I'm concerned.

Posted: 10/2/2005 7:30:58 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One more thing to think about, if current only flowed through skin and fat then defib machines wouldn't work.

That's a good one.

A defib has like 400-1,000 more power than a Taser. How does that effect how the electricity flow through the body? Also think about where defib pads get placed.

If electricity only went from probe to probe in a direct path, a tazer would be useless, and would not disrupt the nervous system enough to effect the victim. From what I can understand, a tazer uses PULSES to do the "damage" [temporary] not amperage. However it needs the amperage to push the pulses thru the body. Since each and every body is different [cept for identical twin, and even then differences DO exist] I can believe there are SOME fatalities, however statistically small in real life they are. I can believe it could disrupt the heart rythem in a few people who later have a heart attack due to the shock AND drug and lifestyle issues. I do not think the tazer should be banned, I do believe that it should be used a bit more responsibly by some who think they have a free pass to use it however they see fit without consequences for poor or a total lack of judgement.

I also would not believe a thing a "private" autopsy found without a second one done by a impartial party unrelated to either the Police or the other side.

If Taser probes land very close to one another, the skeletal muscles will not contract. It will in effect become a "pain compliance device", not a neuro-motor disruption device. It's also why Taser says to aim for large muscle groups.

As someone else has said a person being tased can be touched by other people, as long as they don't touch between the probes. If they do they will feel the shock too, and hilarity ensues.

Next, the "pulses" are supposedly required to have the electricity penetrate the skin, which is apparently a fairly poor conductor of electricity.

Posted: 10/2/2005 7:44:07 PM EDT

[#50]

microwave guns

Set phasers to defrost!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Our new Police Dept. Tazer policy. (Page 1 of 2)

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