Should we change the 14th Amendment of the Constitution or not...

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Should we change the 14th Amendment of the Constitution or not...

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:09:08 AM EDT

As you all know, we have a big problem with illegal immigration especially South of the border where millions of illegal aliens cross our border every year to this country.
In this article, www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/12782106.htm
A group of conservative House Republicans, including three Texans, on Thursday called for a get-tough assault on illegal immigration that would subject illegal immigrants to felony jail sentences and impose stiff fines and jail time on their employers.
Outlining the "enforcement first" immigration bill, Rep. J.D. Hayworth, R-Ariz., described his 115-page proposal as "a call to action" to overturn decades of lax federal enforcement on millions of illegal immigrants and the employers who hire them.
The measure also calls for deploying military forces to help the Border Patrol keep illegal immigrants out....

Not bad, so far...Then this quote:

In a provision that could invite a constitutional challenge, the bill would end the practice of granting U.S. citizenship to any child born in the United States, unless at least one of the parents is in the country legally. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution declares that all people born or naturalized in the United States, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," are U.S. citizens.
"There's a debate about that and we're going to test it," said Hayworth's spokesman, Larry VanHoose. Thousands of children of illegal immigrants become U.S. citizens by virtue of birth, further burdening social services, say proponents of tougher immigration laws.

I, personally, have a mixed feeling on this bill. The red quote seems reasonable in my point of view...but potentially it can challenge part of the Constitution--namely the 14th--and this won't go well with people who support the no-change-no-matter-what Constitution.

What do you think????

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:12:43 AM EDT

[#1]

I think we have enough foreigners and most of them aren't worth shit, so... yes.

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:13:48 AM EDT

[#2]

YES

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:17:26 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
In a provision that could invite a constitutional challenge, the bill would end the practice of granting U.S. citizenship to any child born in the United States, unless at least one of the parents is in the country legally. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution declares that all people born or naturalized in the United States, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," are U.S. citizens.

It doesn't go far enough. Their children shouldn't automatically receive citizenship just because they're here legally. Otherwise under Hayworth's proposal they'll just get their 6 year work visa, come to the US and squirt out a couple of anchor babies, and voila, a couple of instant US citizens and they're set for life in the land of the big PX. All that does is turn the supposed 6 year work visa into a way to get their foot in the door, thereby nullifying the damn 6 year work visa in the first place.

Their children shouldn't receive automatic citizenship unless at least one of the parents is a citizen.

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:23:40 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Their children shouldn't receive automatic citizenship unless at least one of the parent's is a citizen.

I agree.

Coming from Europe - where MOST of the countries go by that kind of a rule, it always surprised me that you just have to be born on U.S. soil to be an american. So any pregnant tourist can end up with a U.S. citizen as a child?

It certainly seems odd when you are not used to that kind of system. In most countries I've lived in, your citizenship is determined by that of your parents, and it has nothing to do with where you happen to be born.

Not saying that some "European" way is "better" - just that it certainly is an unusual system, and maybe not well suited to these days of rampant illegal immigration and "anchor babies".

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:26:18 AM EDT

[#5]

No. We shouldn't change the Constitution because .gov can't run the border patrol worth a shit. Fire whoever has screwed up our border patrol and fix the problem that way.

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:38:51 AM EDT

[#6]

Yeah this is a brilliant idea; there are what 20 million illegals in the US? 20,000,000 * 40,000 = 800,000,000,000 that’s 800 billion dollars that it would take every year to incarcerate them. Yeah, I’ll pass our deficit is already high enough; this is officially one of the dumbest ideas ever. Lets spend MORE money on these people, yeah that will fix the problem!

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:40:52 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In a provision that could invite a constitutional challenge, the bill would end the practice of granting U.S. citizenship to any child born in the United States, unless at least one of the parents is in the country legally. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution declares that all people born or naturalized in the United States, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," are U.S. citizens.

It doesn't go far enough. Their children shouldn't automatically receive citizenship just because they're here legally. Otherwise under Hayworth's proposal they'll just get their 6 year work visa, come to the US and squirt out a couple of anchor babies, and voila, a couple of instant US citizens and they're set for life in the land of the big PX. All that does is turn the supposed 6 year work visa into a way to get their foot in the door, thereby nullifying the damn 6 year work visa in the first place.

Their children shouldn't receive automatic citizenship unless at least one of the parent's is a citizen.

Good point, napalm.

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:43:55 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Yeah this is a brilliant idea; there are what 20 million illegals in the US? 20,000,000 * 40,000 = 800,000,000,000 that’s 800 billion dollars that it would take every year to incarcerate them. Yeah, I’ll pass our deficit is already high enough; this is officially one of the dumbest ideas ever. Lets spend MORE money on these people, yeah that will fix the problem!

Your numbers are way overinflated. Most illegals woudl not necessarily be incarcerated, but just deported. Spending a little bit of money on the border would ensure that the majority woudl NOT re-enter. A large part of the problem CAN be fixed at relatively low cost - there just isn't the political will to fix it. Money is NOT the problem here.

What idea do you have that's better?

Posted: 9/30/2005 9:52:03 AM EDT

[#9]

Ialways thought it would be cheaper just to build a 20 foot electric fence all alon ghte border.

Posted: 9/30/2005 10:01:25 AM EDT

[#10]

Well, I'll be honest, I am planning on coming to the US for my next child (and every thereafter) I am saving up for it, because it is not cheap. But I am NOT doing it so my wife and I have anchor babies, I am doing it so that my Children can chose to live in the US or Canuckastan once they reach their majority

Simple as that. This illegally entering the US is bullshit, I woudl say the same for illegally entering Canada, but this country of mine hands out landed immigrant status as well as citizenship like candy

Posted: 9/30/2005 10:05:49 AM EDT

[#11]

I like the idea of this, but I'm always a little leery about messing with the Constitution. If we get our way with it today, someone else may get their way with it tomorrow, think about it. If we were to get this amendment changed in a way that conservatives support, just imagine what liberals may do in the future to other amendments. Don't we already have laws in place that could be better enforced without the need for a change to the Constitution ?

Posted: 9/30/2005 10:06:39 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Ialways thought it would be cheaper just to build a 20 foot electric fence all alon ghte border.

Machine guns....guard towers ?

Posted: 9/30/2005 10:06:43 AM EDT

[#13]

This may help....

Or....

Close most of the army bases around the country, and build a 1 mile wide by 2000 mile long
army base on the border. They have actual SECURITY on army bases...

Just a thought

Posted: 9/30/2005 11:34:41 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Yeah this is a brilliant idea; there are what 20 million illegals in the US? 20,000,000 * 40,000 = 800,000,000,000 that’s 800 billion dollars that it would take every year to incarcerate them. Yeah, I’ll pass our deficit is already high enough; this is officially one of the dumbest ideas ever. Lets spend MORE money on these people, yeah that will fix the problem!

Your numbers are way overinflated. Most illegals woudl not necessarily be incarcerated, but just deported. Spending a little bit of money on the border would ensure that the majority woudl NOT re-enter. A large part of the problem CAN be fixed at relatively low cost - there just isn't the political will to fix it. Money is NOT the problem here.

What idea do you have that's better?

+1....Military forces along the border will be a big deterrence here either north or south of the border. If there are a lot of support, then politically, it shouldn't be a problem.

Posted: 9/30/2005 11:41:16 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
This may help....

Or....

Close most of the army bases around the country, and build a 1 mile wide by 2000 mile long
army base on the border. They have actual SECURITY on army bases...

Just a thought

Within two weeks there would be Mexicans cutting the grass and emptying the trash on that base.
Guaranteed.

Posted: 9/30/2005 11:43:59 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Their children shouldn't receive automatic citizenship unless at least one of the parents is a citizen.

ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY!!!

Posted: 9/30/2005 11:59:21 AM EDT

[#17]

Our citizenship law masquerades as benificent but in reality is unmitigated horseshit. Just another "entitlement" with no substance or responsibility attached.

ETA I think, under these proposals we'd have the option to deport at sentencing. Incarcerating illegals doesn't make sense.

I read something this week that farmers in the Central Valley in CA are having problems getting enough workers to pick some crops. The workers can make more money in construction.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:13:38 PM EDT

[#18]

Yes, I do have a better solution than spending insane amounts of money. How about we eliminate ALL social welfare programs including government schools, welfare, Medicare, food stamps, and everything else? People can’t take advantage of the “system” if there is no “system”. If you eliminate those factor then the low-life leeches won’t come any more and you will be able to open up the boarders entirely, because only hardworking and motivated people will come, thus simulating the economy. There is no reason to fear immigration, the only thing to fear from it is immigrants leeching off tax payers, if they are willing to pay their own way then let them come, who are we to stop them? We were all immigrants at one point; even the Native Americans were immigrants if you go back far enough.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:17:21 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
No. We shouldn't change the Constitution because .gov can't run the border patrol worth a shit. Fire whoever has screwed up our border patrol and fix the problem that way.

There ya go.
How many times have we, as gunowners, said Enforce existing laws, before passing new ones

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:20:27 PM EDT

[#20]

NO. They are already gradually rolling back the 1st, 2nd, 4th. We do not change it because Border Patrol is ordered to stand down.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:23:38 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
No. We shouldn't change the Constitution because .gov can't run the border patrol worth a shit. Fire whoever has screwed up our border patrol and fix the problem that way.

That is one of the best posts here in a long time.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:27:22 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
No. We shouldn't change the Constitution because .gov can't run the border patrol worth a shit. Fire whoever has screwed up our border patrol and fix the problem that way.

That is one of the best posts here in a long time.

There's still the question of citizenship for anchor babies.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:36:07 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Yes, I do have a better solution than spending insane amounts of money. How about we eliminate ALL social welfare programs including government schools, welfare, Medicare, food stamps, and everything else? People can’t take advantage of the “system” if there is no “system”. If you eliminate those factor then the low-life leeches won’t come any more and you will be able to open up the boarders entirely, because only hardworking and motivated people will come, thus simulating the economy. There is no reason to fear immigration, the only thing to fear from it is immigrants leeching off tax payers, if they are willing to pay their own way then let them come, who are we to stop them? We were all immigrants at one point; even the Native Americans were immigrants if you go back far enough.

we're working on it, corporate welfare too.

Still it's in our best interests to KNOW who's coming here.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:53:47 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Yeah this is a brilliant idea; there are what 20 million illegals in the US? 20,000,000 * 40,000 = 800,000,000,000 that’s 800 billion dollars that it would take every year to incarcerate them. Yeah, I’ll pass our deficit is already high enough; this is officially one of the dumbest ideas ever. Lets spend MORE money on these people, yeah that will fix the problem!

Your numbers are way overinflated. Most illegals woudl not necessarily be incarcerated, but just deported.

Isn't that what they do with them now? And let's say that they deport 90 percent and jail the rest. That still leaves two million to be jailed. Doesn't that mean we would have to build at least one new prison cell for every prison and jail cell that now exists?

If you jail just ten percent of them then it seems to me that the illegal aliens are going to figure that IF they get caught then the odds are about 9 to 1 that they just get a free ride home. Yeah, some deterrent.

Spending a little bit of money on the border would ensure that the majority woudl NOT re-enter. A large part of the problem CAN be fixed at relatively low cost - there just isn't the political will to fix it. Money is NOT the problem here.

So how much would it cost to seal the borders? We can start by just giving your best estimate of the number of people required to do it. IIRC, this topic came up before and there wasn't one person on the whole forum who had any clue what it would cost.

What idea do you have that's better?

Do some simple math before you start making any grand plans.

Posted: 9/30/2005 5:14:14 PM EDT

[#25]

Bump for the evening crew...

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Should we change the 14th Amendment of the Constitution or not...

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