Allow me a minute to strap on my flame-suit, and in the meanwhile ATTEMPT to consider my point with a somewhat open mind.

I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. However I've spend much time with people of both "faiths", and I've learned much about each side, some of which I'd like to share with you.

Now this may come as a shock to you:

1) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Republicans are destroying this country.
2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda.
3) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Conservatism is a mental disease and any other nasty words you've ever called them.

The key of my argument is, no matter how strong you hold the conviction that your views and morals are correct, your "sworn enemy" is convinced of the opposite with the same level of conviction.

Maybe were not so different after all? Or maybe this is part of a greater plan to keep us fighting amongst eachother so we never see the bigger picture here?

I hope you realize that whatever your initial response to this thread is, is probably the SAME response I'd get if I posed this on DU.

Your thoughts? [flame-suit & close-minded suit on]




ETA: Inspiration for this thread

agreeing with you. Hence why I haven't been aligning myself with any stupid political party, republican or otherwise for ongoing three years now.

The people you are talking about are ideologues.  They are the vocal minority.  Everyone else sees the big picture because they aren't condemning opposing views.

The problem is that libs want to change everything this country is and ever was.  If they don't like America, they need to get the fuck out.  Move to canada or france or something.

Quoted: 2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda.

This shows you how out of touch with reality these people are.  Anyone can step back and take an objective look at the big 3 and CNN and see how biased they are.  Not to mention numerous studies that have been done that have pointed this out.

Liberals who believe more than 10% of what they profess are in the minority.  Informed liberals know they have to live a lie.  Others are just stupid or disillusioned America haters.  

Quoted: The problem is that libs want to change everything is country is and ever was.  If they don't like America, they need to get the fuck out.  Move to canada or france or something.

I could argue against that....For example: Conservatives want to change everything in accordance with their christian faith. Abortion, "under god" (which has been around for only 50 years) etc...

I think the two major McParties have been hijacked by extremists.

My Libertarian Party has been hijacked by druggies and they have guaranteed that the LP will go nowhere for at least 50 years.

Quoted: Quoted: 2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda. This shows you how out of touch with reality these people are.  Anyone can step back and take an objective look at the big 3 and CNN and see how biased they are.  Not to mention numerous studies that have been done that have pointed this out.

One Word:

FOX

BTW, if you do some research on the history of News agencies you'll see that FOX is a trendsetter.



ETA:  I'm not under any false illusions that I might win this argument here....Just curious to see what people think

Conservatives are not necessarily in any way Christian.

Quoted: Quoted: The problem is that libs want to change everything is country is and ever was.  If they don't like America, they need to get the fuck out.  Move to canada or france or something. I could argue against that....For example: Conservatives want to change everything in accordance with their christian faith. Abortion, "under god" (which has been around for only 50 years) etc...

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda. This shows you how out of touch with reality these people are.  Anyone can step back and take an objective look at the big 3 and CNN and see how biased they are.  Not to mention numerous studies that have been done that have pointed this out. One Word: FOX BTW, if you do some research on the history of News agencies you'll see that FOX is a trendsetter. ETA:  I'm not under any false illusions that I might win this argument here....Just curious to see what people think

It was statiscally proven during the last election season that the vast majority of popular/mainstream media was overwhelmingly biased toward the liberal view.  If anyone wishes to argue that fact I will search for the study... but I am tired..so please dont make me do that.

If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.

- Winston Churchill

The difference is, we're right and they're wrong..........

Quoted: Allow me a minute to strap on my flame-suit, and in the meanwhile ATTEMPT to consider my point with a somewhat open mind. I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. However I've spend much time with people of both "faiths", and I've learned much about each side, some of which I'd like to share with you. Now this may come as a shock to you: 1) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Republicans are destroying this country. 2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda. 3) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Conservatism is a mental disease and any other nasty words you've ever called them. The key of my argument is, no matter how strong you hold the conviction that your views and morals are correct, your "sworn enemy" is convinced of the opposite with the same level of conviction. Maybe were not so different after all? Or maybe this is part of a greater plan to keep us fighting amongst eachother so we never see the bigger picture here? I hope you realize that whatever your initial response to this thread is, is probably the SAME response I'd get if I posed this on DU. Your thoughts? [flame-suit & close-minded suit on] ETA: Inspiration for this thread

1) Conservatives KNOW (intellectually) that Democrats are destroying this country.
2) Conservatives KNOW (intellectually) that the media is very liberal, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda.
3) Conservatives KNOW (intellectually) that Liberalism is a mental disease and any other nasty words you've ever called them.

They cant back any of it up with facts. Therein lies THEIR problem.

The difference is that Liberals almost by definition arrive at their "convictions" through emotions, and then scurry around simulating facts and reason to support them. "Conservatives" (a sadly imprecise term) tend to operate based on facts and logic, without regard to feelings. If the typical conservative were shown facts which demonstrated that open-ended welfare were cost-effective and good for society, he would likely become an advocate for welfare.

Firearms policy is a good example. In the face of indisputable facts like the complete lack of correlation between "shall issue" CCW and increased violent crime, the higher rates of violent crime in places where legal access to guns is limited, and the increase in violent crime since the dawn of gun control with the Sullivan Law and the NFA, liberals nonetheless cry with ever-increasing stridency  for gun bans. Why? Because the "feel" that guns are dangerous - or more likely, just "icky."

ETA: Better yet, consider the continued Liberal love affair with extramarital sex and single parenthood. The evidence is incontrovertible that disease, criminality, and child neglect have advanced in lock step with the demise of traditional norms of sexual behavior and family structure, and that those traditional norms are the surefire antidote for many of the ills society faces. Nonetheless, Liberals fight not only for the repeal of laws that support the traditional family (a battle long since won), but for the eradication of purely social conventions that support that institution. Why? Because it feels like you're advocating freedom when you promote free love, transient couplings, and a family consisting of mother, child, and  government or child support check. It feels "unfair" for society to pressure a woman to marry and stay with a man, whatever the benefit of that arrangement to the child and to civilization.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda. This shows you how out of touch with reality these people are.  Anyone can step back and take an objective look at the big 3 and CNN and see how biased they are.  Not to mention numerous studies that have been done that have pointed this out. One Word: FOX BTW, if you do some research on the history of News agencies you'll see that FOX is a trendsetter. ETA:  I'm not under any false illusions that I might win this argument here....Just curious to see what people think

Right.  1 cable news station against 3 broadcast networks and 4 cable news networks.

Quoted: The problem is that libs want to change everything is country is and ever was.  If they don't like America, they need to get the fuck out.  Move to canada or france or something.

And this is the ROOT of the problem, ESPECIALLY this part

Quoted: Quoted: The problem is that libs want to change everything is country is and ever was.  If they don't like America, they need to get the fuck out.  Move to canada or france or something. I could argue against that....For example: Conservatives want to change everything in accordance with their christian faith. Abortion, "under god" (which has been around for only 50 years) etc...

I guess you've never heard of conservative Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists.
Yea they do exist.

Quoted: Quoted: The problem is that libs want to change everything is country is and ever was.  If they don't like America, they need to get the fuck out.  Move to canada or france or something. I could argue against that....For example: Conservatives want to change everything in accordance with their christian faith. Abortion, "under god" (which has been around for only 50 years) etc...

But you would be wrong.  All conservatives aren't christian.  Abortion has been around for less time than "under God" has.  The conservatives are historically for the status quo, while liberals have historically wanted to change the way we live.  And if liberals don't get their way on the popular front, they will push their beliefs onto us via the court systems and the media.

Quoted: The key of my argument is, no matter how strong you hold the conviction that your views and morals are correct, your "sworn enemy" is convinced of the opposite with the same level of conviction. Maybe were not so different after all?

We are.

He that believes with all his fiber that 2+2=5 is still wrong no matter how much he sounds like the guy who equally believes that 2+2=4.

Just because someone is 10000% sure they're right doesn't mean jackshit towards whether they actually ARE right or not.

Liberalism is still a mental disorder regardless of how vehemently those afflicted with it reject that assessment.

Quoted: The key of my argument is, no matter how strong you hold the conviction that your views and morals are correct, your "sworn enemy" is convinced of the opposite with the same level of conviction. Maybe were not so different after all?

There was also a time when people were convinced that the world was flat.  While some were convinced it was round.  Just as history looks at one group as short-sighted and naive, so will it look at modern day liberalism.

I can sum up the difference for you by using two major issues that are near and dear to all of our hearts.



1.  Firearm Freedoms.

Most liberals feel that legal gun ownership should be curtailed even though it clearly states in the Bill of Rights that those freedoms shall not be infringed.

Most conservatives can read and understand the fact that the second ammendment is the basis of all our other freedoms.


2.  Abortion.

Most liberals feel that the right to an abortion is guaranteed, even though there is no mention of it in the constitution.  

Most conservatives believe that abortion is the taking of an unborns life so that sluts may practice an irresponsible lifestlye.



Liberalism is not a mental disorder, it is an Anti-American, socialist-leaning, plague that our nation must purge itself of.

The difference is that we're right and they're wrong.

Quoted: I can sum up the difference for you by using two major issues that are near and dear to all of our hearts. 1.  Firearm Freedoms. Most liberals feel that legal gun ownership should be curtailed even though it clearly states in the Bill of Rights that those freedoms shall not be infringed. Most conservatives can read and understand the fact that the second ammendment is the basis of all our other freedoms. 2.  Abortion. Most liberals feel that the right to an abortion is guaranteed, even though there is no mention of it in the constitution.   Most conservatives believe that abortion is the taking of an unborns life so that sluts may practice an irresponsible lifestlye. Liberalism is not a mental disorder, it is an Anti-American, socialist-leaning, plague that our nation must purge itself of.

I'll distill it down even more for you:

Liberals feeeeeeeeeeeel their way to decisions instead of thinking their way.


"Conservatism vs. Liberalism" is simply "Rationalism vs. Irrationalism" applied to society and politics.

in the meanwhile ATTEMPT to consider my point with a somewhat open mind.

Oh, you mean you were actually being serious? Then don't hold your breath...

Quoted: Quoted: Allow me a minute to strap on my flame-suit, and in the meanwhile ATTEMPT to consider my point with a somewhat open mind. I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. However I've spend much time with people of both "faiths", and I've learned much about each side, some of which I'd like to share with you. Now this may come as a shock to you: 1) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Republicans are destroying this country. 2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda. 3) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Conservatism is a mental disease and any other nasty words you've ever called them. The key of my argument is, no matter how strong you hold the conviction that your views and morals are correct, your "sworn enemy" is convinced of the opposite with the same level of conviction. Maybe were not so different after all? Or maybe this is part of a greater plan to keep us fighting amongst eachother so we never see the bigger picture here? I hope you realize that whatever your initial response to this thread is, is probably the SAME response I'd get if I posed this on DU. Your thoughts? [flame-suit & close-minded suit on] ETA: Inspiration for this thread 1) Conservatives KNOW (intellectually) that Democrats are destroying this country. 2) Conservatives KNOW (intellectually) that the media is very liberal, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda. 3) Conservatives KNOW (intellectually) that Liberalism is a mental disease and any other nasty words you've ever called them. They cant back any of it up with facts. Therein lies THEIR problem.

+1

Personally I feel like I am choosing between the lesser of two evils when I vote.  I think these guys seem to have the best ideas out of anyone ive seen.
Constitutional Party

Meh. Extremists are more alike then they even know, ie Hitler and Stalin.

I like guns and fiscal conservativeness (too late for that), and I also like civil rights and education.

So if there was a pro firearms, smart, responsible and caring politician i'd vote em in. I long for the long defunct Dixiecrats... McCain and Wesley Clark were also some politicians I wish would hav emore succesful careers. A few observations from lurking here and on car (moderate) forums...

1. Liberals blame everything on Bush... Right Wingers never hold him responsible for anything.
2. Everyone agrees on from a personal point of view, guns are bad ass. Whether or not they are good for our society is up for debate,
3. Liberals hate Fox News, Right wingers hate the everyone but Fox
4. Liberals can't cope with the fact that the world isn't as perfect and fair and vanilla ice creamy as they think it is... Right wingers can't cope with any social change (but are completely prepared for a post-apocolyptic world)
5. For liberals, Religion is either mocked, or a self discovery, quasi-religious journey, like going to India to meditate or something weird. Right wingers are much more conservative and dogmatic when it comes to religion, ie, they take it more seriously

Meh.

Just a few of my oberservations, I guess i can honestly say i'm a moderate and watching the two extremely polar political ends go at it is quite entertaining.

Maybe were not so different after all?

Alright, here's the deal...

About 99.9% of Republican politicians are retarded, crooked, or both.
About 99.9% of Democratic politicians are retarded, crooked, or both.
Exactly 100% of the sheep that blindly accept or reject politicians and political statements based on political affiliation are retarded. (Even if they try to rationlize their stupidity by twisting logic to show that, of course, they are right and the other side is wrong).

Maybe if all said 'tards would leave politics alone and leave it to those conservatives and liberals who realize the ultimate goal is to do what is best for the country and who understand the sticking points that are differences in opinion tend to require compromise, [true] problems would be solved much more quickly. But until that happens, bring out the popcorn and enjoy the circus.

Actually I've come to a revelation about American law and society. Most of What Conservatives "think" the country was like in "ye olde days" are absolutely dead wrong. This is just a Romantic fantasy "construction" about some glorious past that never really exsisted but they feel they are "losing" anyway. The "fall of the Roman Empire" and the "frog in Boiling water" are strong themes and symbols among what can be considered the "conservative-right". But my friend recently graduated Law school and now we constantly debate law now as then. He knows a lot more than I do and a lot of what he told me suprised me. For example prior to 1848 there were no polygamy laws! technically having more than one wife was Legal. Never mind "under God" in 1954, prior to the 20th century there was no pledge of allegiance at all. Prior to 1914 there were no laws against prostitution. Now you know what Cowboys did in Kansas railhead towns! YEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWWWW!! And heres a big Whopper, There were never REAL laws against abortion in the US! First off because it rarely came up, because people needed a lot of children back then and also because it was really between a "country doctor" and a woman, the "state" never really entered into the equation. Abortions were done usually in cases of rape, incest and health of the mother. Or it would go under the general medical procedure of "womb scraping".
Same with Drugs, prior to 1914 medicine was basically unregulated so opium and cocaine were OTC at any "apothacary". That movie 'Gangs of New York' is really an accurate portrayal of life circa 1840-1885. In Brainwashing public schools we tend to gloss over what life was really like back in the old days  talking about bullshit dates and whatnot. You think Ghettos today are bad?? Photography has been around since 1840, go look up some of the pictures from that era, downright scary. Children covered in dirt playing next to dead horses and human bodies, with horse manure and urine literally trampled into the earthen streets. Disease was rampant and most children did'nt live past 5. The food industry was also unregulated so any old crap could end up in your dinner. Read "Cannery row". Anyhew, my point is that people should really research Americas past before saying things about comparing it to todays problems. Remember when we talk about "the founding fathers" we really mean the rich guys, but life was quite different for everyone else.

Quoted: I hope you realize that whatever your initial response to this thread is, is probably the SAME response I'd get if I posed this on DU.

Actually you'd get banned for posting this on DU.

Quoted: Allow me a minute to strap on my flame-suit, and in the meanwhile ATTEMPT to consider my point with a somewhat open mind. I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. However I've spend much time with people of both "faiths", and I've learned much about each side, some of which I'd like to share with you. Now this may come as a shock to you: 1) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Republicans are destroying this country. 2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda. 3) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Conservatism is a mental disease and any other nasty words you've ever called them. The key of my argument is, no matter how strong you hold the conviction that your views and morals are correct, your "sworn enemy" is convinced of the opposite with the same level of conviction. Maybe were not so different after all? Or maybe this is part of a greater plan to keep us fighting amongst eachother so we never see the bigger picture here? I hope you realize that whatever your initial response to this thread is, is probably the SAME response I'd get if I posed this on DU. Your thoughts? [flame-suit & close-minded suit on] ]

Crazy people are convinced that spiders from another planet are infiltrating their brains with secret communications. You cannot convince them that they are not being targeted by these alien spiders.

So I guess that means I should respect them and let them run government, right?

Baloney.

Liberals are not stupid because I think they are stupid. They are stupid because the positions they advocate have brought national and personal decay EVERYWHERE those principles have EVER been tried. Their economic ideas do not work. Their social ideas make problems worse. Their international policies enable those who would slaughter the innocent by the millions.

That is not true because I think it is true. It is true because we can objectively measure the effects of liberalism and liberal ideas on populations throughout the entire world and realize that people are usually WORSE off when libbie stupidity runs amok than they were before libbies showed up.

Take the liberal land reforms in Zimbabwe, and the very "PC" idea of giving land back to "the people" of Zimbabwe. They accomplished that through a campaign of murder and violence that is staggering to any sane person, but excusable to a liberal moonbat. The result of those land "reforms"? Other than a bunch of murdered white farmers, the country is now in a state of famine because all the people who know how to farm are gone.

That isn't a figment of my imagination. That is REALITY.

Liberals are idiots. They are not idiots because I think they are idiots. They are idiots because everything they propose will lead to the enslavement of men and if given free reign will make the human life more miserable rather than better. They don't recognize this because there is a special blend of ignorance and arrogance that makes a liberal in the first place, and that usually makes them completely unable to do any sort of critical analysis.

That is why libbies like the anti-gunners always have to lie. Truth is not on their side, but they reason that because their intentions are good, little things like facts should not be allowed to get in their way.

Liberals are idiots.

Period.

Quoted: 1. Liberals blame everything on Bush... Right Wingers never hold him responsible for anything.

Untrue. When Bush signed the First Ammendment Destruction Act (also known as CFR) I went ballistic. It was wrong, remains wrong, and will always be a stain on his presidency. That is but one disagreement I have with Mr. Bush. There are others. I do not, however, allow my disagreements with Mr. Bush to so poison my mind that I think him to be an absolute evil who is out to get me with his Haliburton buddies. I am a reasonable man, and so is he, and we will disagree on some things every now and then. His perspective as President is entirely different than mine, and that will inevitably lead him to make some decisions that I don't understand or agree with.

Nevertheless, I don't despise him or think him my enemy. I understand that he is generally a good man who is trying hard to do well at what has to be the worst job in the world: President of the United States.

Liberals are idiots because any disagreement with them makes you evil, and agreement with them makes you good. For instance, in a liberals mind I would be an evil child killer because I believe in firearm ownership, but someone who ACTUALLY killed a child with a handgun would be considered a hero if (after he got out of prison, serving 2 years for murdering a kid...Liberal compassion, you see....) he stood up and blamed guns for his putting a bullet in a 2 year old's head.

That is just plain stupid. But that is how liberals work.

That is why I say they are insane. When they see me as a bigger threat than the guys who ACTUALLY GO AROUND KILLING PEOPLE, then they are IDIOTS.

2. Everyone agrees on from a personal point of view, guns are bad ass. Whether or not they are good for our society is up for debate,

No it isn't.

Rights, especially those enumerated in the Constitution, are not up for debate.

3. Liberals hate Fox News, Right wingers hate the everyone but Fox

Not true. Fox is far too liberal. Mara Liasson and Juan Williams are HARDLY big conservatives. And anyone who thinks that chucklehead O'Rieley is a conservative needs their head examined.

4. Liberals can't cope with the fact that the world isn't as perfect and fair and vanilla ice creamy as they think it is... Right wingers can't cope with any social change (but are completely prepared for a post-apocolyptic world)

Do you read this crap in a book somewhere, or do you just pull it directly out of your rear end?

Social changes that got rid of Jim Crowe were GOOD changes. Social changes that would destroy the family, the basic unit of civilization, or the foundational principles of our nation are BAD changes. If you honestly can't see the difference, then you need help.

5. For liberals, Religion is either mocked, or a self discovery, quasi-religious journey, like going to India to meditate or something weird. Right wingers are much more conservative and dogmatic when it comes to religion, ie, they take it more seriously

I do take religion seriously. Not because my faith is some namby pamby "journey of self discovery", but because I believe it is Truth. Any objective look at the principles and ethics taught by my faith will confirm that they are GOOD for individuals and for society.

Meh. Just a few of my oberservations, I guess i can honestly say i'm a moderate and watching the two extremely polar political ends go at it is quite entertaining.

The only things you find in the middle of the road are either yellow or dead.

Do with that what you will.

Quoted: The problem is that libs want to change everything this country is and ever was.  If they don't like America, they need to get the fuck out.  Move to canada or france or something.

*2

The Constitution is the highest "law" and is NOT negotiable. If people have a problem with the american constitution they can move to a country whose constitution suits them better; but trying to change or abolish the constitution is backstabbing your own country and the ONLY place you can call home.

Quoted: Actually I've come to a revelation about American law and society. Most of What Conservatives "think" the country was like in "ye olde days" are absolutely dead wrong. This is just a Romantic fantasy "construction" about some glorious past that never really exsisted but they feel they are "losing" anyway. The "fall of the Roman Empire" and the "frog in Boiling water" are strong themes and symbols among what can be considered the "conservative-right". But my friend recently graduated Law school and now we constantly debate law now as then. He knows a lot more than I do and a lot of what he told me suprised me.

So you learned it from a buddy, huh?

For example prior to 1848 there were no polygamy laws!

The laws were passed in response to the problems of polygamy, and even then they were enacted at state and local levels. I am not sure of the exact date, but I think you will find that Utah didn't ban polygamy until fairly recently. It simply wasn't a problem because most people had no intention or desire to marry more than one wife or to share a husband. Why? Because that pesky Christian idea of a family was the standard for our society.

technically having more than one wife was Legal.

If you understood history, you would understand that our founders believed in a bare minimum of laws. They reasoned that a society made of moral and just individuals with common values would be capable of governing themselves. They were correct. Where just and moral people governed themselves, there was no need for laws. The laws were increasingly passed to deal with problems caused by those who took the absence of a government law as an excuse to do a certain act.

Never mind "under God" in 1954, prior to the 20th century there was no pledge of allegiance at all. Prior to 1914 there were no laws against prostitution. Now you know what Cowboys did in Kansas railhead towns! YEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWWWW!!

And it was precisely the increase in that behavior and the spread of disease and ruination of communities it brought that CAUSED laws to be passed stopping it. Where people failed to restrain themselves and became a nuisance, government had to step in and restrain them.

And heres a big Whopper, There were never REAL laws against abortion in the US! First off because it rarely came up, because people needed a lot of children back then and also because it was really between a "country doctor" and a woman, the "state" never really entered into the equation. Abortions were done usually in cases of rape, incest and health of the mother. Or it would go under the general medical procedure of "womb scraping".

Abortion laws didn't exist because it was not a common practice by the standards of the time or by today's standards. As such a thing became more common, eventually laws were passed against it.

Same with Drugs, prior to 1914 medicine was basically unregulated so opium and cocaine were OTC at any "apothacary". That movie 'Gangs of New York' is really an accurate portrayal of life circa 1840-1885.

Yes drugs were legal. And their rampant abuse was causing massive social problems that had to be dealt with by law. Again, where people failed to restrain themselves, government had to step in and restrain them.

In Brainwashing public schools we tend to gloss over what life was really like back in the old days  talking about bullshit dates and whatnot. You think Ghettos today are bad?? Photography has been around since 1840, go look up some of the pictures from that era, downright scary. Children covered in dirt playing next to dead horses and human bodies, with horse manure and urine literally trampled into the earthen streets. Disease was rampant and most children did'nt live past 5. The food industry was also unregulated so any old crap could end up in your dinner. Read "Cannery row". Anyhew, my point is that people should really research Americas past before saying things about comparing it to todays problems. Remember when we talk about "the founding fathers" we really mean the rich guys, but life was quite different for everyone else.

What you will find if you really study history is not some glossy ideal, but the real history of a real nation working through problems. In the days of our country's founding, however, you will find that fewer laws existed because they weren't necessary. People did a better job of self-regulation. And you will find that we had an economic system that wasn't perfect, but did more to ensure that hard work and sane spending would lead to wealth than any other system conceived in the history of man.

American history is not perfect, nor is the American system ideal in every way.

But it is a damn sight better than any other system at promoting equity and freedom among men. We can improve and tinker with areas that need adressing, but tearing it down wholesale to adopt a system of the absolute opression that is socialism because American freedom isn't perfect is INSANE.

Respectfully: Anyone who thinks they are being wise by spreading their votes around between two or more parties--voting for the right one despite Party affiliation--has no idea how the election game is played.  

Don't think of oneself picking the "right" candidate or the "right" party.  One should side with the electorate (the voters, not the Party or politicians) who have similar visions and vote with those people.  But, we must be wise enough to know that we have to concentrate power, and to do that, we have to be tolerant of others who will vote the same way we do, but who aren't in total political agreement.  An example of tolerance for me is with the Religious Right of the Republican Party.  I have to tolerate them (it ain't that bad) so as to side with them to obtain enough political powerful to defeat those voters who knowingly or not, want a Socialist government.  Isn't it really the most important thing for us to do, to stem the natural tendency to Socialize government?  

One is not being wise by spreading their votes among two or more parties.  At best, one is ran over on the ball field of politics by those who do know how to play the game; by those players who completely ignore the non-Party voters as they naturally focus on the only goal that matters: winning elections...scoring.  At worst, one is aiding the real enemy--Socialism--by spreading their votes around.  

Who the politician is, is utterly irrelevant--they are all necessarily prostitutes--prostitutes who are looking for the most customers and who accept payment in the form of your vote.  They will wear or say (profess to believe) whatever clothes or words turn you on.  There is practically no way to know what any politician really believes [in.]  However, it isn't hard to know what you and others believe in--the ones who don't have to lie because they aren't trying to get elected.  Understand that an honest politician cannot win an election.  

Pay no attention to the prostitutes/politicians.  

The finest description of who liberals REALLY are is in this book by David Horowitz:  www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/089526076X/qid=1126790277/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-5032639-7770448?v=glance&s=books

Read the reader's comments.

American Liberals/socialists/communists/The Left/DEMOCRATS, are the single greatest threat to our Republic and to the entire world.

I am viewed by some as a libral and by some as a conservative....I find that being somewhere in the middle is usually the best place to be......

Aren't the hottest places in Hell saved for those who during a time of moral crisis (NOW) remain neutral??

I look at it as   Conservatives Vs. Republicans+Democrats+Liberals

Quoted: If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain. - Winston Churchill

I guess I have no heart.  I'm 21, and i've been conservative as long as i can remember.

Quoted: Aren't the hottest places in Hell saved for those who during a time of moral crisis (NOW) remain neutral??

Only if you believe in that crap...and no, it's reserved for traitors....

Without reading the other responses:

Quoted: Allow me a minute to strap on my flame-suit, and in the meanwhile ATTEMPT to consider my point with a somewhat open mind. I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal. However I've spend much time with people of both "faiths", and I've learned much about each side, some of which I'd like to share with you. Now this may come as a shock to you: 1) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Republicans are destroying this country.

Yet the majority of changes in this country have been made by liberals.  Conservatives, by definition, try to maintain the status quo.  

Just an observation.

2) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that the media is very Conservative, and skews everything according to a conservative adgenda.

Yet only 20% of people in media, when polled, identify themselves as conservative.  Dan Rather thinks he's a moderate.  No one even remotely connected to reality can conclude based on the evidence that the media has a conservative bias.  The media is, however, dollar-driven, so the story selection is sometimes (often) driven by sensationalism rather than interest in spreading the facts around.  24-7 coverage of the Michael Jacson / OJ Simpson / Lacey Peterson trials, for example, is a cheap way to get ratings.  Actual investigative journalism is not.

3) Liberals are CONVINCED (just as much as you are) that Conservatism is a mental disease and any other nasty words you've ever called them.

Someone said once, "The party in power is evil.  The party out of power is insane."  This seems more and more accurate as I get older.

The key of my argument is, no matter how strong you hold the conviction that your views and morals are correct, your "sworn enemy" is convinced of the opposite with the same level of conviction. Maybe were not so different after all? Or maybe this is part of a greater plan to keep us fighting amongst each other so we never see the bigger picture here? I hope you realize that whatever your initial response to this thread is, is probably the SAME response I'd get if I posed this on DU. Your thoughts? [flame-suit & close-minded suit on]

No, on DU your thread would be yanked and you'd get tombstoned for not repeating the Leftist mantra.

One more thing:  It's LEFTIST, not "liberal."  I'm a liberal.  I believe in more liberty, and greater individual freedoms (and the personal responsibilities that go along with them.)  The Left is interested in controlling pretty much every aspect of my life.  But then, so is the Right.  

Quoted: Quoted: If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain. - Winston Churchill I guess I have no heart.  I'm 21, and i've been conservative as long as i can remember.

Churchill also said something along the lines of don't be so open minded that your brains fall out.....

Quoted: If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain. - Winston Churchill

I'm a heartless bastard.

We don't need "conservatives" in office.  We need constitutionalists.