Let's do this. I will make it clear for you. Just pretend that
US=Russia
Mexico (no insult intended)=Chechnya
Lets say Mexico was a state, and part of US. And one day they asked US for Independence. They don't want to be part of Americans anymore. Without asking US they make a militia, an anti US group. US people that live in Mexico is now in great danger. So you give the independence to Mexicans, and say screw them who cares. 2 months later Mexicans tell your people who live in Mexico to get the fuck out of the country. So a lot of Americans leave, and go to US. But those with families, and jobs have no where to go, but to stay in Mexico. One night your family is sleeping in peace, then Mexican militia knock on your door, and tell you to wake up, pack up your shit and get out of the Country forever. You start arguing saying, that you have nowhere to go, you lived here all your life, and your family. Without listening till the end, they shoot you in the head. Your kids and wife wake up and run to the front door to see what happened. Your wife finds your dead body and brains on the wall. She screams, but the Mexican militia (well now the MEXICAN POLICE, since they are their own country) rape your wife, and slice her throat. They take your kids, and call their grandma in CA. They will tell her: We have your grandkids, if you wanna see them alive, pay us $1,000,000. Grandma doesn't have that kind of money. So....

Their grandma can't afford that, and the Mexicans kill your kids, and chop them up. They also tape it, and send the tape of it to their grandma and grandpa. But you can't do nothing about it, you're dead. Now this shit, happend to many many Russian families who lived in Chechnya.
 Next, lets say Mexico decide to declare southern California or say part of Texas as newly independent Mexican Republic and in doing so take up arms and "ask" all white and black folk to leave their newly established state.(DAGESTAN EXAMPLE). US says, no you can't have it. It belongs to US and the people in TX and CA don't want to be part of Mexico. Though there are a lot of Mexicans in TX and CA, they love US, and they are comfortble in US. So then Mexicans get mad, and murder more of US people that live in Mexico. US sends police forces to evac all the US citizen out of Mexico. The American military Police ( Russian OMON ) drives in Mexico to pull out the US citizen, and then they see civilians holding AKs and screaming at them, the rules of engament are : Can't shoot civilians, even if they are armed. So you are driving through streets of Mexico city with a white flag, you are here to pick up the US citizens, you only have one rifle, you are not there for fighting.  YOU THERE TO GET YOUR PEOPLE OUT OF MEXICO!!!! While you pick up your PEOPLE , they shoot at you, and kill all of you. President BUSH send air strike on militia's headquarters, blowing up their camps. You also send in Troops on the border, for safety. Mexicans get so mad, they send in some people in Washington, and NY and blow up couple of your appartments killing 450 people.

Ok, so then in your senario, the U.S. would be looting the people of mexico, and trying to force American culture on the Mexicans who are already living there.  
 Well didnt you say in your story about your experiences in Chechnia that you would check all the homes in a town and shoot  some of them and loot the people???  Remember that elderly couple you talked about?  Who you said your friend looted????  Wern't they "sleeping peacfully" when the "militia (you guys)knocked on their door"?? You said that you killed some of the other people whose homes you searched.  
     Some of the things that you mention the "bad guys" in your little senario are doing are not  all that different from what you said you did in Chechnia.  

No offense meant here either, but maybe all these countries who were taken over by russia to form the soviet union are still pissed !!! and still remember all the attrocities commited by russians over those many years and now its payback time.
You have a home country, maybe they just wanted theirs back ??
an old saying here in the U.S. --- paybacks are a bitch !!!
anyway, welcome to America[:D]

Thats not it. They then enter US , and take over a hospital somewhere in Tucson,AZ. This hospital is for pregnant women, and Mexicans take them hostages, they kill some women and their babies to make a point and tell Bush to pull out the troops off the border, and give the TX to them. You send it SWAT, DELTA and all your spec ops to free those women. The Mexicans use American pregnant women for cover, so your specops can't do nothing but to negotiate. You then agree on their deal. They kill more women to make another point, and they run back to Mexico. BUSH brings tanks, and troops in Mexico to ix this problem. WAR STARTS. You have rules though, can't shoot civilians, even if they have AKS in their hands, and you can't do this and this, OR RUSSIA and UN will bitch at you for it. Mexicans don't take prisioners, they do the most barbaric things to your soldiers that your brain can imagine. WHAT DO YOU DO ???? OSAMA BEN LADEN is supporting the rebels with money, weapons and etc. Don't forget what OSAMA did to you !!!! before you choose a right side here. If Russia leaves Chechnya alone, WHO the fuck do you think will be their next target, under command of OSAMA ???? think twice. We are the good guys over there

Thats not it. They then enter US , and take over a hospital somewhere in Tucson,AZ. This hospital is for pregnant women, and Mexicans take them hostages, they kill some women and their babies to make a point and tell Bush to pull out the troops off the border, and give the TX to them. You send it SWAT, DELTA and all your spec ops to free those women. The Mexicans use American pregnant women for cover, so your specops can't do nothing but to negotiate. You then agree on their deal. They kill more women to make another point, and they run back to Mexico. BUSH brings tanks, and troops in Mexico to ix this problem. WAR STARTS. You have rules though, can't shoot civilians, even if they have AKS in their hands, and you can't do this and this, OR RUSSIA and UN will bitch at you for it. Mexicans don't take prisioners, they do the most barbaric things to your soldiers that your brain can imagine. WHAT DO YOU DO ???? OSAMA BEN LADEN is supporting the rebels with money, weapons and etc. Don't forget what OSAMA did to you !!!! before you choose a right side here. If Russia leaves Chechnya alone, WHO the fuck do you think will be their next target, under command of OSAMA ???? think twice. We are the good guys over there

Hmmmm ..... so you are on the Chechen side right? ok then tell me something famous good from Chechnya.
We don't trust civilians anymore. They are civilians during the day light, but when the night comes, they take their AKs and attack Russian truck drivers, since not enough balls to encounter our infantry face to face. I've lost friends during the cleaning of towns, where they walk inside of the house, and see a peaceful couple sitting on the bed, and he checked the house, and right when he was about to leave, he got shot in the back. I wanna see you go there, and be on their side. They will rape you, kidnap you, cut off your body parts, and ask ransom from your families. They hate Americans as much as they hate us. GUESS who's going to be risking their lives to save your ass????? Well let me help you.. Spetsnaz, VDV, OMON, and SOBR. We will die, but we will save you from them fuckin beasts.

just wondering.... how and why did you come to the U.S. ?? did you go through all the INS bullshit ?? how long have you been here ??
how do you like it here ?? and how does it compare to the info you got in Russia about us ??
not flaming ya, just curious...
[flag]

I don't know anything "famous good" from Chechnya, but I do know a few things that are "famous good" that came out of Russia.  

Communism
Stalin
genocide
wanton rape and murder of German civilians upon entrance of Germany in WWII
murder of POWs
arming of anti-capitalist revolutionaries
Berlin Blockade
Cuban Missile Crisis

Oh, and we didn't invade and subjucate the Mexican people unlike you Russians did to the Chechens, so your little scenario wouldn't happen.

I remember reading  that the Russians chopped a man's fingers off, then they let him bleed for a while, then they shot him.  INFRONT OF HIS LITTLE BROTHER!  Similar to what you said in your senario about the mexicans vidio raping the killing of a womans grand children and sending it to her.  
   I also read about the russians packing a fire cracker with explosives, then giving it to a child to play with.  The child lit it, infornt of his friends, and they were all killed.  Come on, t russians are not little angels.


Hmmmmmm, is that a theory you made to make us think that you are right?  Since when has Osama been trying to invade chechnia?  When the United States gave Israel weapons and supplies, did they try to conquer Israel?? I think not.  

What got me? as I have enjoyed his posts and have been reading them intently on ak net,
Was when they were "Cleaning houses"?
They would loot the civilians of anything they could find.

Before this gets to heated...I would like to remind the group that during any conflict, BOTH sides commit atrocities.  No Nation has ever gone to war and not commited war crimes.  The winner writes the history.  This is an issue best left to the Russians and Chechens to come to terms with.

Semper Fi

Yes, but it is very annoying when one side comes and tries to play the innocent angel by that I mean that they try to make the other side look like an evil vilan, while they themselves have committed many attrocities.  
[no offense to anybody,]

In 1st or 2nd stage guerrilla warfare, it's a very stupid rebel or guerrilla who stands toe-to-toe with the enemy's regular forces and slugs it out. I believe I understand your reasoning for hating Chechens, but they (the rebels/guerrillas) are just fighting the only way that makes sense in that stage of the fight. Kill an infantryman, big deal - there's always someone to replace him. But kill a truck driver and vital war materials don't get to the units that need them. An infantry company at 100% personnel strength that doesn't have any ammo or food because no trucks have made it to them in a week is no threat to anyone.

VDV,

much as I admire Russian contributions to art, science and literature, and much as I admire Russians, Russia is big-time F**cked now, and I do not see an easy way out of it.  Chechnya is far from your only problem.

If the actions you are recounting are de rigeur for occupying Soviet troops in Chechnya, Russian military force will never stop the fighting unless you kill every single Chechen, which really isn't very good either.  

Russia is not "winning hearts and minds" in Chechnya.   The presence of Russian troops certainly doesn't seem to be offering an attractive alternative to Islamic extremism.

And I am not sure that you have vast economic resources to pull yourselves back on your feet like the US had in Vietnam.  

It's in the US's best interests to see a stable and healthy Russia.  I do not envy Russia, and suspect you are lucky to have made it to the US.  Best of luck to you and to Russia.  She is going to need it.    

VDV, how do you explain Russian interrogation methods on Afghan militia? Tank tread starts at the feet and SLOWLY... Mostly I'd like to ask you what your impressions and feelings about the US are? You see, I KNOW lots of Russians that left and moved here and they all HATE the US. I don't understand why they didn't go to North Korea or China..  And tell us the truth - why do you call Chechans "Blacks"? Do they REALLY have a black spot where the tail was?

[i]*snicker*[/i]  Yea, ok.  Whatever dude.

-SARguy

dishonarable acts should not be countered by more dishonarable acts. even if the enemy is brutal it is wise to have some compassion. giving children explosive firecrackers only makes your enemy hate you even more, and besides the child is a non-combatant. i'd say to do so is an act of terroism, not an act of justice. im an american so i dont really give a crap about chechnya or russia unless they target me. perhaps there is'nt a spits worth of difference between the two to care.

i dont hate russia or the satelite countries. its really none of my business. if the chechnyians want independence, i'd say more power to 'em. never though would i condone acts of terrorism. not by either side.

knightly lib

[url]www.fatalblindness.com[/url]

[b]RAF![/b], made up your mind YET, [b]MR. MODERATOR[/b]?  Now even the main stream media has connected the dots from al Qaeda to the Chechen "[b]FREEDOM FIGHTERS[/b]!!!!!!

Feel [b]STUPID[/b]?!!! [:P]

DaMan

And this little snippet of litterary wisdom is pertinent how........................?????

I used to bust Desant's chops about the Chechens until I learned a little more about Islam and who/what the Chechens are. I thought they were just freedom fighters. Now I know that they are made up of groups like Al Quaida and Hamas and Hezbollah and that they aren't freedom fighters. They are islamic terrorists bent on the destruction of everything that isn't muslim.
I had to apologize to Desant.

desantnik vdv...welcome to ar15! long time no see (since duhthor banned me...heheheh!). i hope life finds you doing well!

you guys should listen to little desantnik...he knows what he is talking about...he knows all to well!

desantnik, i am hearing that the apartment bombing was part of a plot to discredit yeltsin, and was backed by an oligarch (the millionaire that recently was banished by putin..who turned on him) that was trying to get putin elected.

the kgb "excersise" story didn't help things out an, either.

some of you need to dig a little deeper into the chechan/russo history.

and maybe read this, while you're at it: [url]http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/CHECHNYA/chechen_war.txt[/url]

i commend the souls of the lost vdv to heaven!

......Exactly why most of us keep the 12gge close to the bed......the scenario would not get very far in the u.s.  Life in the U.S. is unlike that of any country ANYWHERE....U.K. being the closest possibly......we are not opressed......why?....we faught to make it so.....the eastern block never had to fret about....ps2...or x box....not too much competition about who can make the stupidist car ads............[argue].....any cable t/v companies in georgia?

The russians made their tactics quite clear in the Rape of Germany, both at the end of, and after WW2. Rape and savage brutality against civilian populations was your main tactic. The occupiers of E. Germany were thievish brutal clowns, destroying and subjugating the people who laughed at you behind your backs.
Russkies are animal peasants, cruel beyond words, and purveyors of unthinkable tactics, encouraged by their so-called "officers". Honor is a word unknown to them.
I think russia is "playing possum" this time, and is stealing all the world aid, and using it to rearm with newer equipment. Your people are supposedly starving, yet you continue to oppress some of your former satellite nations.
The USA will yet fight the clumsy bumbling Bear.
And yes, every one of the russkie "immigrants" to America I have seen still whines about how it was "better in rooshia".
Well then, go home.

Desantnic i have read most of your post at your site. it is hard for me to compare our mexicans, and mexico to the throat cutting moslems bastards you have in chechnya. i did not like these people ever.  after 9-11 i will never be tolarant again. at the risk of heat from you other guys. i agree with garmentless.
the chechens are the very type of terrorist that we need to distroy! so if the russians wipe those bastards out, im for it!

Huh? My lies? I have not written any untruth. I may have been deceived, and I was for a long time by those "freedom fighters" (really islamic terrorists), but I am not now. Please explain yourself.

No intent to flame, but what did Germany do that was so "honorable?" The war between Germany and Russia was a war of annihilation, plain and simple. This was made so by the Germans, who didn't exactly build country clubs for the peoples they had conquered. Atrocities were committed by the Russians, this is true. But what did they (the Germans) expect? German soldiers had treated captured Russians (and civilians) with a TOTAL lack of "honor," or even humanity; SURELY the average German might have figured out that the average Russian was looking for major-league payback. Me? I got no ill will towards Germany at all. But they reaped what they had sewn all over Europe.

Nothing the German troops did in russia compares to what the russkies wreaked on German civilians.
Read some first person accounts, and you will understand better.

I've read, and seen, interviews from victims from both sides. How many MILLIONS of German civilians were killed by the Russians throughout the war? Go visit Dachau, or Auschwitz-Birkenau, or Bergen-Belsen, or Treblinka, or any one of those other places, and maybe YOU will understand better. I've been to both Dachau and Auschwitz. I understand completely. Edited to add: Again, no flame intended.

Wow, just goes to show ya - If ya dig deep enough you'll always find shit.

some of the tapes (audio) they got of 9-11 involved fuckheads and ossumas inner circle, they acually talked about murders they had committed in chechneya, so their are links to al queda for sure.

The guy is very close to being correct.  His analogy of Mexico=Chechnya is incorrect.  it would be better to equate Chechnya to an American state, for example New Mexico.  
Lets not forget that the leader of the Chechnyan rebels, a thug named katar or some shit like that, made a statement that he wanted to take a break from Chechnya and go to Afganistan and kill Americans.  I try to keep up with current events as much as possible and I know what he is saying is mostly true. These Chechnyans fighters = Al Qaida = THE SAME SCUM THAT ATTACKED OUR HOME.  They need to be wiped out.  End of story.  God bless George Bush and Donald Rumsfield!

Desant: glad you made it over. Don't let the mindsets here scare you off (although being a former paratrooper I doubt it would).  They mean well, but are just as ignorant as I was about who these guys really are. There is a certain collective memory that knee-jerks back to the cold war, and finds it entertaining to think of the Chechens as simply freedom fighters. The movie 'Red Dawn' is not taking place in Chechnya. They have no understanding that the same situation may befall us some day, and thus it is cheap and easy to critique Russia's misteps.

These Chechen Mujaheidin are the scum of the earth (and no they weren't made that way by the Russians - they went looking for it, growing their beards and breaking out their twisted version of the Koran a decade ago) and are even worse than their buddies the Taliban, who had a certain afghani prediliction toward vacillation that is historically grounded. They make the FARC in Columbia (or Kidnap Inc.) look like boy scouts. This has a vicious religous aspect to it that goes beyond any understandable sense of national identity. The things that they do in the main (and for sport) are the things that other enemies we have faced do at their worst, in isolated examples. The torture, beheadings, male rape and physical and mental enslavement of captives is legendary. There are no noble qualities about these guys at all. The vietcong were knights of the round table in comparison.

Even when the Russians grew tired of the whole mess and pulled out, they would then take the war to them, belying the arguement that all they want is to be left alone. They are as fanatical as Al-Quaida, to whom they are deeply connected.

The Russian army there has a lot of problems too. The drug use and profiteering remind me of our last days in Vietnam. I don't think our guys were 100% then either, many of them also being drafted into what the politicians would make an un-winnable war.

Anyway, I think that our intelligence services are working with their Russian counterparts, and connecting all the dots of the pan-islamic terrorists, there and elsewhere. As you may know, they are even targeting us in Bosnia and Kosovo, for all we did for them...

Again, welcome over!!  

Actually this scenario did take place......at the time of texas statehood.........[argue]

I read a POW account of how Germans tied 12 Russian soldiers to fence posts nude in 0 degree weather, poured beef stew on their genitalia, and then turned the German Shepherds loose on them. This happened outside Moscow, and the bodies were left to inspire terror. As I see it Germany got off pretty easy for what they did to the rest of the world.

I don't really care too much for the Russians. They are somewhat to blame for Chechnya. But, the Chechens do represent a threat to us.
What really takes the cake is our local Nazi lover Hannah Reitsch talking about how bad the Russians treated the germans after WWII. There could be a case made for the Russians getting some retribution, which still makes thier actions inexcusable IMO. Couldn't you come up with a better handle than Hannah Reitsch? Or do your sympathies lie with Nazi heroes and heroines?

The fall of the Soviet Union has caused as many problems as it has solved.

The Mafia runs rampant controlling government.

Before, Big Mother Russia would tell the smaller subordinate countries to play nice.  The alternative would be asses kicked with overwhelming force.  There is now no overwhelming force.  

Huge Fustercluck.  

"Its Zyklon B! This was used, man! This was used!"

Ok, since many here seem to think that somehow German grandmothers, tiny children and nuns "had it coming", and deserved to be raped, disemboweled, and nailed to barn doors by the russkies.....let's talk the Ukraine.
The russkies did it here too, on a scale unmatched by even the wicked evil nazis.
Between 10-15 MILLION people were annihilated by the ever so charming russkies there.
The numbers make the holocaust look like amateurs.
Look at the Czech rebellions, the E. German uprisings.....everywhere these "people" dominated a country, millions of innocents were murdered.
The russians make the nazis look GOOD.

Hannah,
The attrocity of Ukraine had a name...it's name was Stalin. The "man of steel" was responsible for the murder of millions of innocent people..he has his own pit of fire in hell today for that reason. In Chechnya the muslims have turned into horrid terrorist..eventhough Russia has lost it's grip on the former Soviet states, they have tried unsuccessfully to re-unite the states..it has failed. Now most of the "fear" factor is gone and the "cause" is'nt the same...oil has a high price. Even for Russia.

Now it has become more of a "Jihad" against foriegn humanity in Chechnya...and the muslims will kill everyone and everything for that cause. It's never about the land...it's about their religion. Look at Palestine.

And be sure for one thing...Russia is a closer ally today than at anytime in history.

Primarily because we have the same common enemy that threatens our very existence.

I just hope we have the longevity and drive to keep our nation free and strong.

9/11 was the wake-up call to reality in the world.
[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

Russia's crimes against civilians dwarf those of the Germans.
Throughout all of russia's history there have been murderous purges, both of their own, and of the people they oppressed.
Their victims lack the PR machine that the German's victims have, but the russian crimes were many times worse, you just don't hear about them as often.
No one cares about 15 million Christian Ukrainians, it seems.

Oh yeah...Desantnik. Spokonya noche' and Osterozhna moi' brat! I know menoga parusskie... or maybe neechevu!

Ya ponemoi?

[b]blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

Naked Gunman, I appreciate that you have even heard of the Ukrainian murders, but the cause is the same as in Chechnya today.
Russians continue to try to take what is not theirs.
If they are having such a bad time in Chechnya, perhaps they should stop trying to steal the oil there, and leave those people alone.
It is NOT russian land, they stole it, and they should give it back.

Of course it is. But he's simply presenting a "what if?" scenario to give some perspective on the chronology of events over there.



Haha. There were Mexicans who fought on our side in that one and went on to become fellow citizens. The same cannot be said of the "freedom fighters" of Chechnya. No point in going beyond that for more detail.



That's an interesting way to phrase it. The correct way would be: The Bolsheviks (or simply communists) make the Nazis look good. You don't attach the characteristics of the nazis to the German people as a whole (although others do here I see) but have no problem doing that with the Russians. I see it differently: both Russia and Germany WERE HIJACKED.

What you described in rest of your post is absolutely true and not very well known in this country. Obviously some here could care less, but I suggest that we all look at them in toto as the great crimes against humanity that they were, dwarfing what we hear in the headlines today concerning Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan and the former Yugoslavia...

Hannah,
Yes, I heard it firsthand...and saw what 50 years of communist rule will do to the will and soul of a people. It will take another 50 years to re-build the confidence of people with each other. The Russian parliment have made efforts to "pay" and somehow make deals with the Chechnyans to no avail..the muslims won't allow it. it's a lose, lose situation.. Russia cannot survive without oil and voila'...you have to send troops in to protect it. Right now, I lean toward Russia just because of the importance of oil for their livelihood...the Muslims have reacted with terror instead of diplomacy. They are not willing to sell nor negotiate.

We don't have a dog in this fight...except that,the muslims are coming together thoughout the world like never before. And we cannot support a mad dog...we made that mistake once.

The Russian civilians who LIVE in Chechnya and have their whole lives are being eliminated..sounds familiar. I feel sorry for them...it's a lose, lose situation. I just hate the terror/murder of anyone, anywhere. The sins of forefathers seems to always reach the next generation.

Just my opinion...which is always skewed.
[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

Sorry, DonR!  Guess I got carried away!

Just my way of rubbing raf's nose in crap for his posts supporting the Chechen "Freedom Fighters" back when they were "valiantly" defending Grozny with human shields.

DaMan

Sorry, Garmentless!  I over reacted.  

Unless you were familiar with the players and issues involved, you would probably believe what the main stream media was telling you at the time.  They portrayed the Chechen rebels as "freedom fighters".

Daman