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Posted: 9/12/2005 5:13:33 PM EDT

its a ok show

some Dr said that bullets in the military (5.56, i bet) were designed for "wounding"

wtf?

what a load of BS

right?

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:19:42 PM EDT

[#1]

When in doubt read the ammo oracle. www.ammo-oracle.com

taken from said page...

Unlike most FMJ rounds, M193 and M855's primary wounding mechanism is fragmentation. This is a good thing because without fragmentation these rounds otherwise would act like a ice pick and cause very little damage because of their small size.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:21:05 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
some Dr said that bullets in the military (5.56, i bet) were designed for "wounding"

Yes, that's true. The US military traded one-shot stopping power for light weight so you an carry more ammo. We have a lot of heavier supporting weapons behind our troops that can hit much further. So the M16 is there to keep our guys from getting tired and be able to swarm the bad guys while firing on the move. Shoot in the general direction of the bad guys with the big guns while the guys sweep around to mop up with the black rifle.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:22:03 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
When in doubt read the ammo oracle. www.ammo-oracle.com

taken from said page...

Unlike most FMJ rounds, M193 and M855's primary wounding mechanism is fragmentation. This is a good thing because without fragmentation these rounds otherwise would act like a ice pick and cause very little damage because of their small size.

yea i know

but i'm tired of all of these stories saying that the 5.56 or other smaller cartriges are designed for wounding so that the BGs will take thier wounded out

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:23:26 PM EDT

[#4]

....Popcorn..check.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:24:03 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
some Dr said that bullets in the military (5.56, i bet) were designed for "wounding"
Yes, that's true. The US military traded one-shot stopping power for light weight so you an carry more ammo. We have a lot of heavier supporting weapons behind our troops that can hit much further. So the M16 is there to keep our guys from getting tired and be able to swarm the bad guys while firing on the move. Shoot in the general direction of the bad guys with the big guns while the guys sweep around to mop up with the black rifle.

THATS what seems logical--lighter weight ammo/gun to carry more loads of ammo for combat; cover the area w/ fire and keep the enemy suppressed...

as to wounding, i still dont buy it--fragmentation of 5.56 or tumbling of 5.45 would still F someone up center of mass imo

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:26:26 PM EDT

[#6]

OK here you go.

Most military ammunition designed after the 7.5 mm Swiss round in the last half of the 19th century ( collaboration between Rubin and Kocher) is designed to wound, not kill. This is due to two factors:

1) A wounded man is out of action and drains the resouces of the army to which he belongs due to medical care

2) Basic humanitarian reasons.

FMJ ammo is not designed to kill as much as to wound. To get around this factor, fragmentary ammo like the old Weswt German 7.62x51 and the current 5.56 are designed to have a greater degree of wounding power but are still not killers in the same way as any JHP or JSP.

The Geneva conventions codified this type of bullet many years ago. Simply put military ammo is designed to wound, police and hunting ammo are designed to kill. The show was correct.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:27:33 PM EDT

[#7]

Ever shoot goats? With 5.56 versus 7.62?

IIRC, back when the issue was killing power, goats were used to prove killing power.

While no one would hunt goats at 400 yuards with a 5.56, comparable wounds with either were equally effective. It is not the diameter of the bullet that makes the wound but the velocity and depth of penetration.

Hunting experience trumps shooting block of geletaine.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:28:15 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
yea i know

but i'm tired of all of these stories saying that the 5.56 or other smaller cartriges are designed for wounding so that the BGs will take thier wounded out

In my Mil Sci class I was told that it takes 15 folks to take care of a wounded soldier (from the action to recovery), and 2 to take care of a dead one (burial/graves reg.), and that could be done after the fact - the wounded needed to be dealt with now, thus more of an immediate effect on manpower.

FWIW

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:30:32 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
OK here you go.

Most military ammunition designed after the 7.5 mm Swiss round in the last half of the 19th century ( collaboration between Rubin and Kocher) is designed to wound, not kill. This is due to two factors:

1) A wounded man is out of action and drains the resouces of the army to which he belongs due to medical care

2) Basic humanitarian reasons.

FMJ ammo is not designed to kill as much as to wound. To get around this factor, fragmentary ammo like the old Weswt German 7.62x51 and the current 5.56 are designed to have a greater degree of wounding power but are still not killers in the same way as any JHP or JSP.

The Geneva conventions codified this type of bullet many years ago. Simply put military ammo is designed to wound, police and hunting ammo are designed to kill. The show was correct.

Do you have a source for this information?

Bob

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:30:44 PM EDT

[#10]

Wow, there really is a Dr. Fackler and he's on TV!

National Geographic Channel
"Naked Science - Bullets"

It's on again at Midnight (EDT).

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:31:36 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
yea i know

but i'm tired of all of these stories saying that the 5.56 or other smaller cartriges are designed for wounding so that the BGs will take thier wounded out

In my Mil Sci class I was told that it takes 15 folks to take care of a wounded soldier (from the action to recovery), and 2 to take care of a dead one (burial/graves reg.), and that could be done after the fact - the wounded needed to be dealt with now, thus more of an immediate effect on manpower.

FWIW

i dont doubt it

but many of our oponents (like china) i bet would not give a crap about wounded, expecially during the fight

i'm not saying that the 5.56 is the best anti personal round, but i still give it credit

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:32:11 PM EDT

[#12]

Actually it is both diameter of the wound AND depth of channel.

While you may not believe in gelatin block and high speed footage, I can tell you that these coupled with computer imaging and bone fragmentation tests how us quite a bit about wound pathology.

Cross section, penetration and BULLET PLACEMENT are the big three.

And yes, if you read the work of the man who invented FMJ ammo, it is to get the Bad Guys to carry away and then take care of the wounded.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:32:58 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
1) A wounded man is out of action and drains the resouces of the army to which he belongs due to medical care

2) Basic humanitarian reasons.

3) So that we an gloat over our defeated foes and Gitmo 'em for information.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:36:01 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
OK here you go.

Most military ammunition designed after the 7.5 mm Swiss round in the last half of the 19th century ( collaboration between Rubin and Kocher) is designed to wound, not kill. This is due to two factors:

1) A wounded man is out of action and drains the resouces of the army to which he belongs due to medical care

2) Basic humanitarian reasons.

FMJ ammo is not designed to kill as much as to wound. To get around this factor, fragmentary ammo like the old Weswt German 7.62x51 and the current 5.56 are designed to have a greater degree of wounding power but are still not killers in the same way as any JHP or JSP.

The Geneva conventions codified this type of bullet many years ago. Simply put military ammo is designed to wound, police and hunting ammo are designed to kill. The show was correct.

It wasn't the Geneva conventions it was the Hague.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:36:42 PM EDT

[#15]

MY Sources are the original reports of Rubin, the original ballistic tests of Theodore Kocher and the many reports done by Dr. Martin Fackler. These can be found on line.

I also have access to the ballistics reports from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed, FBI ballistics test results, the College of Military Sciences of Great Britain and my own ballistics tests and high speed footage. This is a large part of what I do for a living.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:39:43 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Actually it is both diameter of the wound AND depth of channel.

While you may not believe in gelatin block and high speed footage, I can tell you that these coupled with computer imaging and bone fragmentation tests how us quite a bit about wound pathology.

Cross section, penetration and BULLET PLACEMENT are the big three.

And yes, if you read the work of the man who invented FMJ ammo, it is to get the Bad Guys to carry away and then take care of the wounded.

Wound diameter does not equal bullet diameter except for slower bullets, hence the need for broadhead tips on hunting arrows. The typical field point will penetrate about 26" of animal at typical hunting range. But taking down a white tailed deer with a field point is next to impossible unless you hit the CNS.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:46:08 PM EDT

[#17]

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:52:23 PM EDT

[#18]

1 million rounds a minute...

It's a freaking shotgun...

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:54:08 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
MY Sources are the original reports of Rubin, the original ballistic tests of Theodore Kocher and the many reports done by Dr. Martin Fackler. These can be found on line.

I also have access to the ballistics reports from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed, FBI ballistics test results, the College of Military Sciences of Great Britain and my own ballistics tests and high speed footage. This is a large part of what I do for a living.

Can you post the titles so I can attempt to get them and read them, there was a big discussion of the theory when I attended command and staff. Additionally wasn't the adding of guiding material an act of necessity more than anything else, prior to that the lower velocities allowed lead, but once you reach modern rifle velocity it was impossible to use un-jacketed rounds.

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:54:26 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
1 million rounds a minute...

It's a freaking shotgun...

exactly--how would it take out tanks?

1000000 rnds 9mm vs a tank

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:56:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
1 million rounds a minute...

It's a freaking shotgun...

exactly--how would it take out tanks?

1000000 rnds 9mm vs a tank

I think they meant the technology could be used...

Posted: 9/12/2005 5:58:36 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1 million rounds a minute...

It's a freaking shotgun...

exactly--how would it take out tanks?

1000000 rnds 9mm vs a tank

maybe....but we would run outta bullets, not to mention, it would be a PITA to lug around all that ammo to the range

I think they meant the technology could be used...

think the "ultimate bullet" would work

and anti bullet defense system w. RADAR

my AR feels obsolite now

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:03:16 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Wow, there really is a Dr. Fackler and he's on TV!

I should hope so - I've exchanged correspondence with him several times...

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:04:53 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
OK here you go.

Somehow you managed to pack several LIFETIMES of firearms ignorance in this one post.

Most military ammunition designed after the 7.5 mm Swiss round in the last half of the 19th century ( collaboration between Rubin and Kocher) is designed to wound, not kill. This is due to two factors:

I don't suppose you have a source for this? It's flawed on several levels, not the least of which is attributing "most military ammunition" to the 7.5mm Swiss rounds. The best claim you could make along this lines would be related to the GP1890 but modern rounds owe far more to the Czech 7.65 than the Swiss 7.5. (Also, Schmidt had more to do with the round than Kocher).

1) A wounded man is out of action and drains the resouces of the army to which he belongs due to medical care

Yeah except that no one back then bothered to tend to wounded during battle. Medics were even quite rare and did not hit the field until AFTER the lull, after which time the extra man power could be spared.

See:

groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/notdesignedforwounds.msnw

2) Basic humanitarian reasons.

Like what?

FMJ ammo is not designed to kill as much as to wound.

Do you think if you just keep saying this enough it will make it true? How about some citations?

To get around this factor, fragmentary ammo like the old Weswt German 7.62x51 and the current 5.56 are designed to have a greater degree of wounding power but are still not killers in the same way as any JHP or JSP.

This betrays total ignorance of the methods used to develop and adopt modern rounds (particularly in the U.S.) and wounding in general.

The Geneva conventions codified this type of bullet many years ago.

Uh, you mean the Hague Conventions? I see you haven't bothered to read the Ammo forum's FAQ....

Q. Isn't against the Geneva Convention for the Military to use hollowpoint or fragmenting ammo?

Simply put military ammo is designed to wound, police and hunting ammo are designed to kill. The show was correct.

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:06:24 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
MY Sources are the original reports of Rubin, the original ballistic tests of Theodore Kocher and the many reports done by Dr. Martin Fackler. These can be found on line.

I also have access to the ballistics reports from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed, FBI ballistics test results, the College of Military Sciences of Great Britain and my own ballistics tests and high speed footage. This is a large part of what I do for a living.

For who? (I am interested so that I never accidentially hire you).

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:11:50 PM EDT

[#26]

I'd post something but Austrian covered all of it.

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:13:22 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
MY Sources are the original reports of Rubin, the original ballistic tests of Theodore Kocher and the many reports done by Dr. Martin Fackler. These can be found on line.

I also have access to the ballistics reports from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed, FBI ballistics test results, the College of Military Sciences of Great Britain and my own ballistics tests and high speed footage in my mother's basement. This is a large part of what I do for a living.

For who? (I am interested so that I never accidentially hire you).

Austrian,

I think you missed the part in red. It somewhat calls into question his credibility.

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:15:48 PM EDT

[#28]

5.56 is indeed designed for wounding. You can prove it with a backyard experiment. Disassemble a 55gr 5.56 mm cartridge. Screw a 00000000 cup hook into the base of the bullet. Using a Blood or Surgeon's Knot, tie one end of a 22 foot length of 1lb monofilament or Extra Fine Dental Floss to the cup hook. Reassemble the cartridge, leaving the floss or monofilament dangling outside the brass case.

Tie a slip knot in the loose end of the floss or monofilament. Put the slip knot over the stem of a watch worn on your right wrist, wrapping all excess line around the stem cap. Wet the line with saliva, if necessary to maintain the integrity of the wrap.

Chamber the reassembled round in your AR15/M16 and assume a prone position. Select a target and depress the trigger as normal. As the bullet flies downrange, the monofilament or dental floss will strip off the stem and stem cap. Your watch will be fully wound, proving once and for all that the 5.56 is designed for wounding.

I assume that this debate is now at an end.

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:16:18 PM EDT

[#29]

Man, it's just like at the range last Saturday. Over heard some guy saying "...You see, FMJ ammo is a special kind that is armor piercing...."

Next we will hear how the 5.56 round "Bounces" arround inside the person, how it "tumbles" through the air, and how you can't leave magazines loaded cause it will wear out the spring.

Posted: 9/12/2005 6:53:01 PM EDT

[#30]

FLAL1A,

I just tried your experiment and it didn't work. My watch is showing no signs of being wounded, and futhermore it's suddenly now Dec. 24. Please advise ASAP. If there's Christmas shopping to do, I really must get going.

Sincerely,

Moof

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:22:33 PM EDT

[#31]

I'm gonna try the dental floss trick with a .308. Will post results tomorrow. Might even use my Burger King Fred Flintstones watch. Just kidding, the Rolex needs a good wind up.

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:30:11 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
OK here you go.

Most military ammunition designed after the 7.5 mm Swiss round in the last half of the 19th century ( collaboration between Rubin and Kocher) is designed to wound, not kill. This is due to two factors:

1) A wounded man is out of action and drains the resouces of the army to which he belongs due to medical care

2) Basic humanitarian reasons.

FMJ ammo is not designed to kill as much as to wound. To get around this factor, fragmentary ammo like the old Weswt German 7.62x51 and the current 5.56 are designed to have a greater degree of wounding power but are still not killers in the same way as any JHP or JSP.

The Geneva conventions codified this type of bullet many years ago. Simply put military ammo is designed to wound, police and hunting ammo are designed to kill. The show was correct.

For the love of God, stop posting.

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:45:22 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Man, it's just like at the range last Saturday. Over heard some guy saying "...You see, FMJ ammo is a special kind that is armor piercing...."

Next we will hear how the 5.56 round "Bounces" arround inside the person, how it "tumbles" through the air, and how you can't leave magazines loaded cause it will wear out the spring.

How is that not true?

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:50:48 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Man, it's just like at the range last Saturday. Over heard some guy saying "...You see, FMJ ammo is a special kind that is armor piercing...."

Next we will hear how the 5.56 round "Bounces" arround inside the person, how it "tumbles" through the air, and how you can't leave magazines loaded cause it will wear out the spring.

How is that not true?

It's the repeated cycling of compressing/decompressing the springs . . . oh, nevermind. Just read this again-->www.ammo-oracle.com

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:52:54 PM EDT

[#35]

So I really have a "Benign Black Rifle"? Hmmmm. Maybe the Kaliforniastanians can use this information to get their bans lifted.

Posted: 9/12/2005 7:56:43 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I'm gonna try the dental floss trick with a .308. Will post results tomorrow. Might even use my Burger King Fred Flintstones watch. Just kidding, the Rolex needs a good wind up.

Next major personal injury case I settle, I'm getting a Rolodex of my own. Lots of lawyers buy them for their secretaries, but you don't buy your own Rolodex till you hit it big. It's not that I care what time it is; I just want to impress people.

Posted: 9/12/2005 8:28:50 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
I'm gonna try the dental floss trick with a .308. Will post results tomorrow. Might even use my Burger King Fred Flintstones watch. Just kidding, the Rolex needs a good wind up.

+1

Posted: 9/12/2005 8:32:56 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
5.56 is indeed designed for wounding. You can prove it with a backyard experiment. Disassemble a 55gr 5.56 mm cartridge. Screw a 00000000 cup hook into the base of the bullet. Using a Blood or Surgeon's Knot, tie one end of a 22 foot length of 1lb monofilament or Extra Fine Dental Floss to the cup hook. Reassemble the cartridge, leaving the floss or monofilament dangling outside the brass case.

Tie a slip knot in the loose end of the floss or monofilament. Put the slip knot over the stem of a watch worn on your right wrist, wrapping all excess line around the stem cap. Wet the line with saliva, if necessary to maintain the integrity of the wrap.

Chamber the reassembled round in your AR15/M16 and assume a prone position. Select a target and depress the trigger as normal. As the bullet flies downrange, the monofilament or dental floss will strip off the stem and stem cap. Your watch will be fully wound, proving once and for all that the 5.56 is designed for wounding.

I assume that this debate is now at an end.

Simply awesome. This post should be tacked at the top of every forum on ar15.com !!

Posted: 9/12/2005 8:34:28 PM EDT

[#39]

Rolex watches don't usually keep good time. The pretentiousness gets old after a while too. One of those psycho paranormal, aborigines kind of things.

Posted: 9/12/2005 8:58:22 PM EDT

[#40]

Yeah, a Rolex is teh suck. My Russian military watch winds itself...I think many of the Rolex lines do too...

Dr. Fackler did many tests with live animals including goats and sheep. Sure, it is nice to use high speed photography to see what is happening with the bullet but gelatine does not reproduce the lethal effects.

Gelatine has its merit mostly in design confirmation of the bullet. Live testing of such a bullet is the most accurate means of determining its lethality.

And the effect of a small diameter, high velocity projectile like an M193/M855 at its original design velocity on living tissue is well proven.

It MIGHT be a "wounding" round at 500+ meters but such a hit assures that enemy will not pose a hazard.

Posted: 9/12/2005 9:28:15 PM EDT

[#41]

I have talked to several people who have shot deer with 223 55 fmj's here in Texas.

The stories are all similar. Hit a deer in the chest with a 55 fmj and it runs 40 or 50 yards and dies.

Hit in the chest with a 55gr soft point and a deer only makes it 10 or 20 yards before it dies.

Another thing the 223 and 222 hunters tell me is that deer go farther when hit with a 3006, 3030 or 308 than they do when hit with a 223 or 222.

Lots of guys use Sierra match kings too, they are effective killers.

When I shoot gooey Texas mud 50 or 60 yards away, with a glancing shot, with 55 fmj's the bullet makes a grove for about 3 inches and then blows out a crater about 4 to 6 inches in diameter. The sides of the crater have flecks of white metal, lead fragments and some jacket fragemnts too.

When I shoot the same mud with my AK, using fmj's the bullet makes a much longer grove before rising out of the mud and continuing downrange into the berm.

Up close the 55 fmj should produce a very nasty wound...most of the time.

But, the 50 Vmax IS the shit. We should test them on a few tens of thousands of holy warriors to get some good statistically significant data.

Last thing. A 50 Vmax is slowed way down at 500 yards but they still blow up 2 liter pepsi bottles very dramatically. Much better than 168 match kings from the 308. The 223 still has it's rotational speed at 500 and the sudden slowing of the light bullet on impact flash melts the lead core and the bullet blows up.

We need jihadies and slomo film. Ammo up!

Posted: 9/12/2005 10:42:42 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I have talked to several people who have shot deer with 223 55 fmj's here in Texas.

The stories are all similar. Hit a deer in the chest with a 55 fmj and it runs 40 or 50 yards and dies.

Hit in the chest with a 55gr soft point and a deer only makes it 10 or 20 yards before it dies.

Another thing the 223 and 222 hunters tell me is that deer go farther when hit with a 3006, 3030 or 308 than they do when hit with a 223 or 222.

Lots of guys use Sierra match kings too, they are effective killers.

When I shoot gooey Texas mud 50 or 60 yards away, with a glancing shot, with 55 fmj's the bullet makes a grove for about 3 inches and then blows out a crater about 4 to 6 inches in diameter. The sides of the crater have flecks of white metal, lead fragments and some jacket fragemnts too.

When I shoot the same mud with my AK, using fmj's the bullet makes a much longer grove before rising out of the mud and continuing downrange into the berm.

Up close the 55 fmj should produce a very nasty wound...most of the time.

But, the 50 Vmax IS the shit. We should test them on a few tens of thousands of holy warriors to get some good statistically significant data.

Last thing. A 50 Vmax is slowed way down at 500 yards but they still blow up 2 liter pepsi bottles very dramatically. Much better than 168 match kings from the 308. The 223 still has it's rotational speed at 500 and the sudden slowing of the light bullet on impact flash melts the lead core and the bullet blows up.

We need jihadies and slomo film. Ammo up!

thats interesting stuff

dosent the Vmax lack sufficent penetration when up against mid sized game?

Posted: 9/12/2005 10:53:08 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Ever shoot goats? With 5.56 versus 7.62?

IIRC, back when the issue was killing power, goats were used to prove killing power.

While no one would hunt goats at 400 yuards with a 5.56, comparable wounds with either were equally effective. It is not the diameter of the bullet that makes the wound but the velocity and depth of penetration.

Hunting experience trumps shooting block of geletaine.

sadly I only use them for milk and cheese.....

Posted: 9/12/2005 11:00:30 PM EDT

[#44]

The thing that you guys have not discussed is the hydrostatic shock wave and the size of the temporary wound cavity. Having seen wounds caused by 7.62 x 39 and 5.56, I can tell you that under the right circumstances they will both kill and other times just make you bleed. M855s have a tendency to just go right though as do the commie FMJs. But bone contact with both rounds will cause serious injury. But we had one guy come through the ER with multiple hits from an SKS and all the holes in soft tissue and were nice and clean. Through and through. He only needed minor surgery to debride the wounds and he was fine.

The curious thing about the 5.56 especially the m193s is that the entry hole maybe small but the tissue damage in the wound cavity is tremendous. We are talking hamburger. It will may not kill you but it will take you out of a fight. Also the 5.45 commie rounds 7N6s are nasty as they also tumble and fragment and cause large wound cavities.

ETA: Yup, my Rolex looks cool but its the suck when it comes to keeping time. My Tag will out perform it. But just the heft of the Rolex tells people you spent a load on it. My Seadweller hasnt seen the light of day for a while. And tell me why the damn thing needs to be overhauled every few years and it costs as much as some watches.

Posted: 9/12/2005 11:00:31 PM EDT

[#45]

Has anyone tried those "blended metal" rounds I saw on www.armedforcesjournal.com/bullets/? It looks good on the video and it's made in TX.

Posted: 9/12/2005 11:35:31 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

thats interesting stuff

dosent the Vmax lack sufficent penetration when up against mid sized game?

It MIGHT have a problem if you try to penetrate the ball of the humerus. But if you pick your shot correctly, the remaining bones are light. Penetration though the lungs is easy, promoting a double lung shot. With Texas Hill Country white tailed deer, 50 and 55 grain .224" bullets at .222/.223 velocities and 100-200 yards penetrate to the opposite skin side, not quite making an exit hole.

The mess made in the lungs is impressive. Bits of jacket, core can bone radiate out in a cone for about 5" after entry. Only the base continues to the other side.

At under 50 yards, all frags remain in the chest cavity. There is a fist-sized entry wound.

Beyond 200 yards, the bullet tends to stay together and exits, making a wound indistinguishable from that of a 100 yard .30-30.

The 64 gr. Win. PP tends to stay together better, usually penetrating fully.