www.csmonitor.com/2005/0913/p01s03-wome.html

September 13, 2005 edition

Palestinians rush into new Gaza
The last Israeli soldier left Gaza Monday, ending Israel's 38-year occupation in the strip.
By Ilene R. Prusher | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
NETZARIM, GAZA – Nearly every Palestinian who could Monday flooded into lands Israel had occupied for 38 years, their mood pulsing with celebration tinged with frustration.

Synagogues in several of the largest settlements in Gaza, which Israel did not demolish, were burned or bulldozed, a move condemned by Israel's foreign minister as "a barbarous act by people who have no respect for holy places."

The Palestinian Authority (PA) had insisted Israel demolish the houses of worship along with the homes of 8,500 settlers it evacuated last month, complaining that Israel's refusal to do so left the Palestinians in a "no-win situation" because the buildings would prove impossible to protect.

The cycle of blame and counter-blame is symbolic of what may be the direction of any return to negotiations. Talk is not of bridge-building, but of cutting losses and calculating gains, underscoring the gap in expectations about the land transfer and its role in setting the stage for future peace talks.

"We don't want them to leave behind anything that will remind of us of the Israeli occupation," says Mohammed Farouk, a high school student carrying a rusty mortar for memories. It was a bit of old ammunition that he, like many other young men, picked up as they scavenged for raw materials - from wiring and pipes to wood beams and broken chairs.

But many other Palestinians were disappointed at the way the day unfolded. As people picked and plucked at the ruins here, a Palestinian policeman ran to a lamp post waving his night stick. He yelled to one young person who was already halfway up the pole to leave the light in place.

"We want to protect things because it's in our interest, but there are people who want to destroy everything," complained Lieut. Izzadin Najar, sweating and breathless from chasing teenagers.

From 2 a.m. to 3 a.m., he says, the Palestinian police ringed the synagogue and tried to stop it from being damaged, but were quickly overrun. "There was a huge number of people and we couldn't control it," he says. "I'm unhappy with what I see because I wanted everything done in a civilized way. What will the world think about us?"

Mr. Najar had hoped that the Palestinians would be able to present a unified voice at such an important moment. But instead, an array of flags flew from synagogues and cars - as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestinian (PLFP) all tried to claim a share of the credit for Israel's withdrawal. "We should have be flying one flag, not many," Najar says.

The overwhelming majority of Palestinians, according to a poll released Sunday, believe that armed resistance caused the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

According to the poll, carried out by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 62 percent said attacks from Gaza against Israel should end after the withdrawal, while 35 percent said attacks should continue.

"It is a step toward freedom," says Mr. Farouk, the high school student. But his friends scoff and say it's ultimately a sad day. Palestinian aspirations for a state that includes the West Bank and a part of Jerusalem still seem far off, says one.

"What joy is there without that? Even in Gaza, we're still governed by the Israelis from the air, by the sea," says Ismail, who would only give his first name. "It's not enough."

But what isn't enough for Palestinians has been off-putting for many Israelis. An adviser to Mr. Sharon says Israelis will not be left with an appetite for making further gestures anytime soon.

"I think Israelis felt that by completing the withdrawal from Gaza, they had created an opportunity for peace for the Palestinians to seize upon," says Dore Gold, Sharon's adviser. "And what they saw was synagogues in flames, and that's something with a very ominous tone for the success of any future negotiations."

It was not only in the emptied Jewish enclaves in Gaza where the crush of Palestinians celebrating raised concerns. An Egyptian border guard shot and killed a Palestinian teenager along the Gaza-Egypt border Monday.

The shooting occurred after dozens of Palestinians rushed the wall along the border crossing at Rafah. Egyptian security forces allowed scores of Egyptians and Palestinians to flow through the border to mark the handover. Israel and Egypt had reached an agreement in which 750 Egyptian policemen would guard the route separating Gaza and Egypt, to allay Israeli concerns about Palestinian militants smuggling weapons into Gaza.

In Neve Dekalim, the twin synagogues that were the rallying point for fervent Jewish settlers resisting the evacuation a few weeks ago was crowded Monday with Palestinians scavenging whatever they could carry. A Hebrew poster signing the praises of the messiah was spraypainted with graffiti saying, "Yes to Islam."

Inside the former sanctuary, the floor was littered with shattered glass. Young men in the rafters with makeshift pick-axes sent debris and window panes crashing.

"We have been waiting for 38 years. What do you expect from me?" says Ahmed Ikheya from the third floor rafter. "We are not a destructive people, but we want to end the occupation and we don't want any memory of it."

Outside what used to be the regional council building of the Gush Katif settlement, a few Palestinian troops guarded against looters. "It is our mission to protect these buildings, but as you can see we are not very successful," says Maj. Mohammad Mansour. "The Palestinian resistance has more authority than the Palestinian Authority."

• Joshua Mitnick contributed to this report from Gaza.




The only thing that will make them happy is the complete destruction of Israel

suprise

This just in:

the Pope is Catholic.



- BG

Quoted: The only thing that will make them happy is the complete destruction of Israel

Of course…

Israel knows this and evacuated Gaza for this reason… consolidate a defensive perimeter behind the fence.

Basically Sharon is forting up.

I wonder why the Palestinians can't see that its their peoples fucked up politics that prevents them from having a state? Israel would probably be happy to see a Palestinian state, because then they could (and would have to) control the terrorists in their territory.

What did they expect?

If I moved into an abandoned Muslim city, the first thing I would do would be to burn the mosque down.

Maybe we should send them some Red Cross Debit Cards, billions of $$ in free aid offer to build a few new cities too!  

Israel never should have elft
or at least salted the earth when they left

Quoted: Quoted: The only thing that will make them happy is the complete destruction of Israel Of course… Israel knows this and evacuated Gaza for this reason… consolidate a defensive perimeter behind the fence. Basically Sharon is forting up.

He's getting a decent excuse for kicking Pali ass too.

The only way that the Palestinians can
win is if Israel lets its guard down.
They will not. Just my blind faith in
their capabilities and wisdom.

Helen Keller could see that one coming.

Quoted: Helen Keller could see that one coming.

You bet.

In another thread I stated the Palestinians would celibrate for 5 minutes and then get pissed that more territory is not being given to them.  I was wrong.  They only made it 4 minutes.

Quoted: What did they expect?

I expected exactly what happened.  Im just wondering WTF the moderates in Israel that hatched this plan thought was going to happen.  NO ONE is going to suffer for this but the Israeli people, especially the ones that were forcibly removed.  And when this goes to shit in a year or two, and Israel has to reoccupy to guarantee their security, the world will condemn them once again.


Its also proof-in-action (or should be) to anyone that thinks "negociating" peace with scum will work.


Sorry if any of you got the impression this outcome was a suprise to me.

Quoted: Its also proof-in-action (or should be) to anyone that thinks "negociating" peace with scum will work.

Never has.  Never will.

Sorry if any of you got the impression this outcome was a suprise to me.

Not hardly.

Quoted: Quoted: What did they expect? I expected exactly what happened.  Im just wondering WTF the moderates in Israel that hatched this plan thought was going to happen.  NO ONE is going to suffer for this but the Israeli people, especially the ones that were forcibly removed.  And when this goes to shit in a year or two, and Israel has to reoccupy to guarantee their security, the world will condemn them once again. Its also proof-in-action (or should be) to anyone that thinks "negociating" peace with scum will work. Sorry if any of you got the impression this outcome was a suprise to me.

I think you are slightly reading this wrong… Sharon knew exactly what he was doing and exactly what the results would be.

Sharon in not a moderate he is a realist, he did not negotiate this he just did it because he saw it in Israel’s best interest. He knows for the long term that Israel must consolidate and be ready to repulse Arab terror for the foreseeable future.

The unilateral evacuation of Gaza is a recognition by the Israel that negations in present conditions are not viable.

Sharon has also made it clear for those that want to see where the real problem lies.

Quoted: The unilateral evacuation of Gaza is a recognition by the Israel that negations in present conditions are not viable.

Negotiations under ANY conditions arent viable, nor will they ever be.  The Islamic world wants Israel destroyed.  You can't negotiate with that under any circumstances.  You DEFEAT it, world opinion be damned.

It makes perfect sense to me. The Palestinians require complete rubblization of Gaza in order to re-arm the Palestinian Army. They're almost out of rocks.

Quoted: Quoted: The unilateral evacuation of Gaza is a recognition by the Israel that negations in present conditions are not viable. Negotiations under ANY conditions arent viable, nor will they ever be.  The Islamic world wants Israel destroyed.  You can't negotiate with that under any circumstances.  You DEFEAT it, world opinion be damned.

EXACTLY.

Sharon has made it easier to fight by consolidating Israel’s position.

"We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe.
We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again.
We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe."

"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."



-Neville Chamberlain

I think the Israelis are planning to show their willingness to make peace, and when the Palestinians refuse... Look at a map.  It's a gigantic L shaped ambush.

Quoted: I wonder why the Palestinians can't see that its their peoples fucked up politics that prevents them from having a state? Israel would probably be happy to see a Palestinian state, because then they could (and would have to) control the terrorists in their territory.

For the same reason that people here can't see that Jesse Jackson is the main reason there is still racial strife.................................Ignorance!

Israel will pay for the same real estate twice.  Brillant.

Give a mouse a cookie, and it will ask for a glass of milk.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The unilateral evacuation of Gaza is a recognition by the Israel that negations in present conditions are not viable. Negotiations under ANY conditions arent viable, nor will they ever be.  The Islamic world wants Israel destroyed.  You can't negotiate with that under any circumstances.  You DEFEAT it, world opinion be damned. EXACTLY. Sharon has made it easier to fight by consolidating Israel’s position.

Uh, ok.  Sure.  Give up land intentionally that was already won through hard fighting.  Create pockets of active terrorist resistance inside your own country instead of sweeping them clear.

BRILLIANT!

Quoted: What did they expect? If I moved into an abandoned Muslim city, the first thing I would do would be to burn the mosque down.

....Man that is the wrong way to look at it!!................a mosque would be THE best strip joint in town!!!!...................right next door BBQ, all you can eat $5.95

Give 'am an inch...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The unilateral evacuation of Gaza is a recognition by the Israel that negations in present conditions are not viable. Negotiations under ANY conditions arent viable, nor will they ever be.  The Islamic world wants Israel destroyed.  You can't negotiate with that under any circumstances.  You DEFEAT it, world opinion be damned. EXACTLY. Sharon has made it easier to fight by consolidating Israel’s position. Uh, ok.  Sure.  Give up land intentionally that was already won through hard fighting.  Create pockets of active terrorist resistance inside your own country instead of sweeping them clear. BRILLIANT!

WHAT...

Look at a map these were pockets OUTSIDE of Israel’s borders isolated from the rest of the country… it does NOT was create pockets of anything it does eliminate exposed pockets and  simplify the defensible perimeter.

Yes it is BRILLIANT! A big tactical plus and a long term strategic advantage. It is clearly a move that makes Israel’s long term position stronger and more defensible.

Quoted: Quoted: What did they expect? I expected exactly what happened.  Im just wondering WTF the moderates in Israel that hatched this plan thought was going to happen.  NO ONE is going to suffer for this but the Israeli people, especially the ones that were forcibly removed.  And when this goes to shit in a year or two, and Israel has to reoccupy to guarantee their security, the world will condemn them once again. Its also proof-in-action (or should be) to anyone that thinks "negociating" peace with scum will work. Sorry if any of you got the impression this outcome was a suprise to me.

I knew you weren't surprised. I was referring to the Isrealis and their apparent surprise.

I thought Gaza belonged to Egypt?

Quoted: Quoted: What did they expect? If I moved into an abandoned Muslim city, the first thing I would do would be to burn the mosque down. ....Man that is the wrong way to look at it!!................a mosque would be THE best strip joint in town!!!!...................right next door BBQ, all you can eat $5.95

Put some fancy lighting in the dome,  wire up the DJ to the prayer anouncment system...

Quoted: What did they expect?

There was a poll today on msn.co.il - the hebrew msn portal, surpisringly good- anyway, they asked what peoples reactions where to the whole thing, when I voted it was 76% saying "ma tzipitem- what did you expect".  The point was to let them destroy the synagogues.  It is very problematic under jewish law to destroy a synagogue, and for a jew to do it makes the whole thing very unpalatable.  There would have been even more soldiers refusing to destroy them than there were soldiers refusing to take part in the disengament.  
I only hope that they dont start shooting those qassams again, it will be a real bitch to go into gaza after terror organizations now that they control the area.

Quoted: Quoted: What did they expect? There was a poll today on msn.co.il - the hebrew msn portal, surpisringly good- anyway, they asked what peoples reactions where to the whole thing, when I voted it was 76% saying "ma tzipitem- what did you expect".  The point was to let them destroy the synagogues.  It is very problematic under jewish law to destroy a synagogue, and for a jew to do it makes the whole thing very unpalatable.  There would have been even more soldiers refusing to destroy them than there were soldiers refusing to take part in the disengament.   I only hope that they dont start shooting those qassams again, it will be a real bitch to go into gaza after terror organizations now that they control the area.

I hate that your "moderate" leaders have done this to you. They should have known this was going to happen.

I have posted the story on here before about the conversation I had with an businessman from Ciaro about the Palestenians. He said they were nothing but a bunch of trouble makers, akin to american welfare scum. He told me that the Pali's that Egypt tried to help out just caused trouble. I can't imagine an Isralite so naive as to beleive that the Palis would be satisfied.

What I don't understand is why they are destroying everything.

They were just given lots and lots of homes with running water, lockable doors, real glass windows, good electric systems, working toilets, etc, and while a majority of those retarded fuckers are living in dirt hovels with a hole in the ground for a toilet and rags hanging over the windows, instead of moving IN to the new homes and making the best of them, they are instead destroying them claiming "we must get the memory of the jews out.".

Getting rid of old memories goes allot faster with a nice home, warm bed, and a nice front porch to sit on while your sipping your beer and watching the sun set.

And they wonder why nobody takes them seriously or why they never increase their quality of life.

Fucking morons.

Chris

[Gomer Pyle voice] Surprise..surprise...surprise[Gomer Pyle voice/]

Quoted: Maybe we should send them some Red Cross Diamond Debit Cards, billions of $$ in free aid offer to build a few new cities too!

...from another thread...red diamond = more PC than a cross even though that cross had nothing to do with christianity...just the swiss flag

i keep telling myself that they left a nuke burried in there somewhere with a remote detonator...

No matter how much money and lives we waste in the Middle East, nothing is going to change one bit because of how backward, stupid and corrupt these people are.  Also, Bush is giving U.S. taxpayer money to these sh**heads!  So glad we aren't 9 trillion dollars in debt!

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder why the Palestinians can't see that its their peoples fucked up politics that prevents them from having a state? Israel would probably be happy to see a Palestinian state, because then they could (and would have to) control the terrorists in their territory. For the same reason that people here can't see that Jesse Jackson is the main reason there is still racial strife.................................Ignorance!

jesse jackson huh?  I think its organizations like the NAACP and Kwasi Enfume that transpire the hatred  even more so than the rainbow push coalition...not to mention the bleeding heart limp dick liberals......all in all half this country is bent upon dividing this great nation.

Sratigicly this was the best move Isreal could have made.  With the Pal's now grouped up it's only a matter of time before they start attacking isreal again.

1: A single wall would be easier to monitor.  
2: With the enemy population in a controlled location responces to attacks can be more effective.
3: Having them in a confined space will make wiping them out alot easier when the time comes.

The jews suffered during WWII but they also learned from it.

This whole thing has struck me as a pretty smart move on Isreal's part to retain the moral high ground when the (inevitable) full scale war starts.

Am I just being naive, or is there merit in my opinion?

Quoted: No matter how much money and lives we waste in the Middle East, nothing is going to change one bit because of how backward, stupid and corrupt these people are.  Also, Bush is giving U.S. taxpayer money to these sh**heads!  So glad we aren't 9 trillion dollars in debt!

It's all Bush's fault.

Quoted: Quoted: No matter how much money and lives we waste in the Middle East, nothing is going to change one bit because of how backward, stupid and corrupt these people are.  Also, Bush is giving U.S. taxpayer money to these sh**heads!  So glad we aren't 9 trillion dollars in debt! It's all Bush's fault.

Werd homie !