Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources?

Yes and according to our records we know you own an undetermined number of "Handguns", "Longuns" or "Both."

Quoted: Yes and according to our records we know you own an undetermined number of "Handguns", "Longuns" or "Both."

GODDAMNIT!!  You're right!  How did you get access to the database?!?!

Quoted: photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=29478

Holy shit...you mean now I'm on the database listing people who think there's a database listing people who own firearms?

Oh, like the gov would ever lie to us. Get real.

In New Jersey, every purchase of a firearm (dealer sale or person to person) is registered by means of the state level paperwork that is to be completed with every firearm transaction and sent to the state police.

Quoted: Oh, like the gov would ever lie to us. Get real.

Oh I'm sure there is some form of database.

I'm just saying it is a disaster on largely incomplete. It isn't a supercomputer, it is boxes of old 4473s by the MILLIONS.

And they have NOTHING with respect to all 4473s currently in FFL hands (more millions).

You wanna beat the Matrix? Buy more guns. Continue ot overburden the system.

And I just checked on YOU.

Seems you ALSO own an undetermined number of "Handguns", "Longuns" or "Both."

No wonder you are nervous.

Quoted: In New Jersey, every purchase of a firearm (dealer sale or person to person) is registered by means of the state level paperwork that is to be completed with every firearm transaction and sent to the state police.

Yup, YOU guys have a REAL database to worry about.

Anyone who has a state requirement for the FFL to provide make, model and serial number has a genuine and valid concern. It is completely reasonable to assume ANY Federal agency may access those state records.

Quoted: Quoted: Oh, like the gov would ever lie to us. Get real. Oh I'm sure there is some form of database. I'm just saying it is a disaster on largely incomplete. It isn't a supercomputer, it is boxes of old 4473s by the MILLIONS. And they have NOTHING with respect to all 4473s currently in FFL hands (more millions). You wanna beat the Matrix? Buy more guns. Continue ot overburden the system. And I just checked on YOU. Seems you ALSO own an undetermined number of "Handguns", "Longuns" or "Both." No wonder you are nervous.

With high speed scanners and optical character recognition millions of forms could be processed if they were determined.

But I like your solution.  I'll do my part next time I have some play money on hand.

It's called enhanced 911.

Quoted:

You wanna beat the Matrix? Buy more guns. Continue ot overburden the system.

quote]

well if you say so, who am i to argue

My local gun store owner had insisted that no records of the purchases were kept.  However, I recently read this article:

http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/content/metro/stories/06/18guns.html

What I find creepy is highlighted in red below.  Of course, reporters get this sort of thing wrong all the time, so it might mean nothing...

Cedar Park man arrested on firearms charges
Feds say he bought and resold to felons, people who otherwise couldn't obtain a gun legally.
By Steven Kreytak

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Saturday, June 18, 2005

HK94 clone, $999. Dp51 compact, $350. Norinco 9 mm, $200.

The Austin American-Statesman classified ad, one of about 20 placed by Hen-Jen "Andrew" Wu of Cedar Park in the past 16 months, listed assault rifles and pistols for sale, according to federal court documents.

Wu often met potential buyers in the Pier 1 store parking lot near Lakeline Mall. He sold at least 67 guns since February 2004, a federal agent testified Friday.

It was illegal, authorities say. Wu wasn't a licensed dealer, he sold to convicted felons, and under his work visa, the Taiwanese citizen wasn't allowed to legally have guns, according to a federal criminal complaint.

Wu, who was arrested Tuesday, on Friday was ordered detained without bail pending trial.

He faces up to 10 years in prison on the three most serious charges against him and up to five years on two others.

Wu's lawyer, Bennie Ray, said the civil engineer was just trying to earn some extra money and did not understand the severity of the federal firearms laws. Wu, who lives with his wife and two children on Rosie Lane, is in the country on a nonimmigrant visa sponsored by his employer.

Since February 2004, Wu arranged to have 107 guns shipped to the Cost Plus 10 Gun Shop on Burnet Lane, where he filled out federal firearms transaction forms when purchasing the guns, according to an affidavit.

In January, federal firearms agents noticed how many guns Wu had been buying and opened an investigation. Later, they learned that three of the guns he bought were used illegally, two in Austin and one in Dallas, the affidavit stated.

In January, a 28-year-old man was arrested in Austin for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon after he accidentally shot himself using a Glock pistol Wu had purchased previously, the affidavit stated.

In March, a 23-year-old man was arrested in Dallas for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon. His gun, a Glock, had been purchased by Wu the previous October, according to the affidavit.

That same month in Austin, police arrested a man for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon and possession of drug paraphernalia while in possession of a firearm. The man said he bought the gun from "an Asian guy in the parking lot" near Lakeline Mall, the affidavit stated.

In May, an undercover agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives called the cell phone number listed in the classified ads, arranged a meeting at the Pier 1 parking lot and bought a 9 mm pistol for $350, the affidavit says.

The agent told Wu that he had a friend who couldn't pass a background check who needed a gun; Wu said he'd sell the friend a gun, according to the affidavit.

In June, an ATF informant who once was convicted of robbery told Wu about his criminal history before buying a Tec-9 pistol for $600, the affidavit stated.

"Wu was told on no less than four occasions that the (informant) could not pass a background check," the affidavit stated. A week later, Wu sold another gun to the informant, according to the affidavit.

Daniel Jones, an ATF special agent who led the investigation, testified Friday that Wu usually ended his ads with the words "And More."

When authorities searched Wu's house after his arrest, they found 54 firearms. About half were "AK-47 types . . . similar to what is used by the military," Jones said.

Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources?

And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them.


I wonder if they've been geocoded yet?

I supported software at a credit card company. One piece I supported was a scanning/ocr program. We had about 25 million cardholders and we processed about 3 million applications per year. We only had a crew of about 30 doing that. I think the ATF could contract that out to a company that focuses on scanning and easily scan 20 million 4473s in a year if that's what they wanted.

I guess they will be moving...to the

Not-So-Rosie Lane (see they lived on Rosie lane..and..oh never mind)

Essayons

probably
NICS would be easiest since it's called into a central place
4473s would likely only be the ones turned in when an FFL has stopped dealing
NFA stuff for sure since again, it's sent in first

Sounds like they traced the guns through the scumbags holding them. Then when they followed then trail from Manufacuter to Wholesaler to the FFL they saw the number of 4473's in his name. By the way if I were the FFL I would have been just a little curious as well.

Quoted: we..... ummm they don't track them per se. we just collect the pictures you guys post on the net. who needs serial numbers

So you're gonna show up in my neighborhood, tacking pictures to the light poles with captions that say


"Have you seen this gun? If so, call 1-800-dial ATF'

Ok, gotcha.

Quoted: I supported software at a credit card company. One piece I supported was a scanning/ocr program. We had about 25 million cardholders and we processed about 3 million applications per year. We only had a crew of about 30 doing that. I think the ATF could contract that out to a company that focuses on scanning and easily scan 20 million 4473s in a year if that's what they wanted.

I think they did.
I remember hearing that they have a warehouse with a "tape system"??? (its old technology please help me if im wrong" with all the 4473s that have been turned in on file. The ATF maintains the database for demographic/statitical reasons.
I think - if someone could confirm - I'm pretty sure a poster mentioned this on here.

Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet?

It would be easy (clearly, you know that since you brought it up).  I work in GIS for a living and I could make a great thematic map identifying type or number of firearms if it was in the DBF.  You could query points to find serial numbers or search the database by keyword or geographically.

The only issue would be keeping current (but they don't seem to care when they show up at the wrong house anyway so as long as it was right often it would probably be ok for them).

Quoted: Quoted: Oh, like the gov would ever lie to us. Get real. Oh I'm sure there is some form of database. I'm just saying it is a disaster on largely incomplete. It isn't a supercomputer, it is boxes of old 4473s by the MILLIONS. And they have NOTHING with respect to all 4473s currently in FFL hands (more millions). You wanna beat the Matrix? Buy more guns. Continue ot overburden the system.

PLUS, the private market is unregulated in most states. A gun that was bought on a 4473 may have trickled into thte private system and become untraceable. Churn baby, churn!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet? It would be easy (clearly, you know that since you brought it up).  I work in GIS for a living and I could make a great thematic map identifying type or number of firearms if it was in the DBF.  You could query points to find serial numbers or search the database by keyword or geographically. The only issue would be keeping current (but they don't seem to care when they show up at the wrong house anyway so as long as it was right often it would probably be ok for them).

Think of the different datasets that are out there now from state/federal sites for FREE.

A state-by-state set of geocoded address points correlated to gun purchases, or maybe another field (number of firearms)added to a property-boundary .dbf could make it very easy to produce some strategic plans to disarm a state ot even a nation.


It appears you and I work with the same technology - downright scary what we have at our fingertips sometimes, ain't it?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet? It would be easy (clearly, you know that since you brought it up).  I work in GIS for a living and I could make a great thematic map identifying type or number of firearms if it was in the DBF.  You could query points to find serial numbers or search the database by keyword or geographically. The only issue would be keeping current (but they don't seem to care when they show up at the wrong house anyway so as long as it was right often it would probably be ok for them). Think of the different datasets that are out there now from state/federal sites for FREE. A state-by-state set of geocoded address points correlated to gun purchases, or maybe another field (number of firearms)added to a property-boundary .dbf could make it very easy to produce some strategic plans to disarm a state ot even a nation. It appears you and I work with the same technology - downright scary what we have at our fingertips sometimes, ain't it?

Very scary.  It's a lot of power that can be used for all kinds of positive purposes or for some very malicious purposes.

You could even pull in a roads layer and use ARC/INFO to make the most efficient or thorough route for rounding up firearms.

Heck, they could probably access credit card purchases and create a bunch of buzz-items like storable food and "survival" gear and cross reference to find people who fit the "profile".  Non-sporting firearms and "self-sufficiency" supplies = time for a visit.  Maybe even tie in your choice of movie rentals (or purchases) and your reading material (if any of this stuff is purchased with card).
Even with "lowly" ArcView you could have a pretty simple project and do an SQL connect to tie in to the wealth of info in various databases.  All tied to a primary key like, say, SSN.

Quoted: My local gun store owner had insisted that no records of the purchases were kept.  However, I recently read this article: http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/content/metro/stories/06/18guns.html What I find creepy is highlighted in red below.  Of course, reporters get this sort of thing wrong all the time, so it might mean nothing... Cedar Park man arrested on firearms charges Feds say he bought and resold to felons, people who otherwise couldn't obtain a gun legally. By Steven Kreytak AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF Saturday, June 18, 2005 HK94 clone, $999. Dp51 compact, $350. Norinco 9 mm, $200. The Austin American-Statesman classified ad, one of about 20 placed by Hen-Jen "Andrew" Wu of Cedar Park in the past 16 months, listed assault rifles and pistols for sale, according to federal court documents. Wu often met potential buyers in the Pier 1 store parking lot near Lakeline Mall. He sold at least 67 guns since February 2004, a federal agent testified Friday. It was illegal, authorities say. Wu wasn't a licensed dealer, he sold to convicted felons, and under his work visa, the Taiwanese citizen wasn't allowed to legally have guns, according to a federal criminal complaint. Wu, who was arrested Tuesday, on Friday was ordered detained without bail pending trial. He faces up to 10 years in prison on the three most serious charges against him and up to five years on two others. Wu's lawyer, Bennie Ray, said the civil engineer was just trying to earn some extra money and did not understand the severity of the federal firearms laws. Wu, who lives with his wife and two children on Rosie Lane, is in the country on a nonimmigrant visa sponsored by his employer. Since February 2004, Wu arranged to have 107 guns shipped to the Cost Plus 10 Gun Shop on Burnet Lane, where he filled out federal firearms transaction forms when purchasing the guns, according to an affidavit. In January, federal firearms agents noticed how many guns Wu had been buying and opened an investigation. Later, they learned that three of the guns he bought were used illegally, two in Austin and one in Dallas, the affidavit stated. In January, a 28-year-old man was arrested in Austin for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon after he accidentally shot himself using a Glock pistol Wu had purchased previously, the affidavit stated. In March, a 23-year-old man was arrested in Dallas for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon. His gun, a Glock, had been purchased by Wu the previous October, according to the affidavit. That same month in Austin, police arrested a man for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon and possession of drug paraphernalia while in possession of a firearm. The man said he bought the gun from "an Asian guy in the parking lot" near Lakeline Mall, the affidavit stated. In May, an undercover agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives called the cell phone number listed in the classified ads, arranged a meeting at the Pier 1 parking lot and bought a 9 mm pistol for $350, the affidavit says. The agent told Wu that he had a friend who couldn't pass a background check who needed a gun; Wu said he'd sell the friend a gun, according to the affidavit. In June, an ATF informant who once was convicted of robbery told Wu about his criminal history before buying a Tec-9 pistol for $600, the affidavit stated. "Wu was told on no less than four occasions that the (informant) could not pass a background check," the affidavit stated. A week later, Wu sold another gun to the informant, according to the affidavit. Daniel Jones, an ATF special agent who led the investigation, testified Friday that Wu usually ended his ads with the words "And More." When authorities searched Wu's house after his arrest, they found 54 firearms. About half were "AK-47 types . . . similar to what is used by the military," Jones said.

And here is how that works.

Criminals were caught with illegal guns.

ATF traced from the source through the distributor to the dealer and requested the 4473s for those guns. They did not just enter his name or a serial number into a database.

Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet?

By whom?

If you buy a gun from me only I have the 4473 and the information on it.

It had been my understanding that FBI kept a record of purchases for 6months, knowingly violating the law.

I am not surprised by this as the main thing they are really looking for and trying to prevent are straw purchases of handguns going to criminals. It has also been my understanding that they are far more concerned about large numbers of handgun purchases and long guns don't really register on their radar screen in most circumstances.

So it is easy to understand how Wu generated interest from ATF.

Quoted: My local gun store owner had insisted that no records of the purchases were kept.  However, I recently read this article: http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/content/metro/stories/06/18guns.html What I find creepy is highlighted in red below.  Of course, reporters get this sort of thing wrong all the time, so it might mean nothing... Cedar Park man arrested on firearms charges Feds say he bought and resold to felons, people who otherwise couldn't obtain a gun legally. By Steven Kreytak AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF Saturday, June 18, 2005 HK94 clone, $999. Dp51 compact, $350. Norinco 9 mm, $200. The Austin American-Statesman classified ad, one of about 20 placed by Hen-Jen "Andrew" Wu of Cedar Park in the past 16 months, listed assault rifles and pistols for sale, according to federal court documents. Wu often met potential buyers in the Pier 1 store parking lot near Lakeline Mall. He sold at least 67 guns since February 2004, a federal agent testified Friday. It was illegal, authorities say. Wu wasn't a licensed dealer, he sold to convicted felons, and under his work visa, the Taiwanese citizen wasn't allowed to legally have guns, according to a federal criminal complaint. Wu, who was arrested Tuesday, on Friday was ordered detained without bail pending trial. He faces up to 10 years in prison on the three most serious charges against him and up to five years on two others. Wu's lawyer, Bennie Ray, said the civil engineer was just trying to earn some extra money and did not understand the severity of the federal firearms laws. Wu, who lives with his wife and two children on Rosie Lane, is in the country on a nonimmigrant visa sponsored by his employer. Since February 2004, Wu arranged to have 107 guns shipped to the Cost Plus 10 Gun Shop on Burnet Lane, where he filled out federal firearms transaction forms when purchasing the guns, according to an affidavit. In January, federal firearms agents noticed how many guns Wu had been buying and opened an investigation. Later, they learned that three of the guns he bought were used illegally, two in Austin and one in Dallas, the affidavit stated. In January, a 28-year-old man was arrested in Austin for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon after he accidentally shot himself using a Glock pistol Wu had purchased previously, the affidavit stated. In March, a 23-year-old man was arrested in Dallas for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon. His gun, a Glock, had been purchased by Wu the previous October, according to the affidavit. That same month in Austin, police arrested a man for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon and possession of drug paraphernalia while in possession of a firearm. The man said he bought the gun from "an Asian guy in the parking lot" near Lakeline Mall, the affidavit stated. In May, an undercover agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives called the cell phone number listed in the classified ads, arranged a meeting at the Pier 1 parking lot and bought a 9 mm pistol for $350, the affidavit says. The agent told Wu that he had a friend who couldn't pass a background check who needed a gun; Wu said he'd sell the friend a gun, according to the affidavit. In June, an ATF informant who once was convicted of robbery told Wu about his criminal history before buying a Tec-9 pistol for $600, the affidavit stated. "Wu was told on no less than four occasions that the (informant) could not pass a background check," the affidavit stated. A week later, Wu sold another gun to the informant, according to the affidavit. Daniel Jones, an ATF special agent who led the investigation, testified Friday that Wu usually ended his ads with the words "And More." When authorities searched Wu's house after his arrest, they found 54 firearms. About half were "AK-47 types . . . similar to what is used by the military," Jones said.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet? By whom? If you buy a gun from me only I have the 4473 and the information on it.

If not from the 4473, then from the NICS records.....?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet? It would be easy (clearly, you know that since you brought it up).  I work in GIS for a living and I could make a great thematic map identifying type or number of firearms if it was in the DBF.  You could query points to find serial numbers or search the database by keyword or geographically. The only issue would be keeping current (but they don't seem to care when they show up at the wrong house anyway so as long as it was right often it would probably be ok for them). Think of the different datasets that are out there now from state/federal sites for FREE. A state-by-state set of geocoded address points correlated to gun purchases, or maybe another field (number of firearms)added to a property-boundary .dbf could make it very easy to produce some strategic plans to disarm a state ot even a nation. It appears you and I work with the same technology - downright scary what we have at our fingertips sometimes, ain't it? Very scary.  It's a lot of power that can be used for all kinds of positive purposes or for some very malicious purposes. You could even pull in a roads layer and use ARC/INFO to make the most efficient or thorough route for rounding up firearms. Heck, they could probably access credit card purchases and create a bunch of buzz-items like storable food and "survival" gear and cross reference to find people who fit the "profile".  Non-sporting firearms and "self-sufficiency" supplies = time for a visit.  Maybe even tie in your choice of movie rentals (or purchases) and your reading material (if any of this stuff is purchased with card). Even with "lowly" ArcView you could have a pretty simple project and do an SQL connect to tie in to the wealth of info in various databases.  All tied to a primary key like, say, SSN.

Somewhere an ATF agent with an eye towards career advancement is furiously taking notes as he reads this.

Quoted: Somewhere an ATF agent with an eye towards career advancement is furiously taking notes as he reads this.

By the time they figure out how to do the stuff we do (if ever) hopefully they will have had to expand their mind enough to embrace 'freedom' and 'right'.

Not that they don't because they don't want one, it's more of a lack of technology.  The ATF is one of the least progressive orgs.  Come on, they just got the EZCheck up & running reliably, allowing faxed FFL's....

To consolidate data from god knows how many FFL's across the nation, I'm just not seeing it.  Just my opinion.  To my knowledged the 4473's don't leave the shops?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet? By whom? If you buy a gun from me only I have the 4473 and the information on it. If not from the 4473, then from the NICS records.....?

Shitty database.

If you have NO record then they only know a person by that "name" and DOB who is a resident of that "state" was approved for either a handgun, longun or both.

Maybe with the name and DOB they could research your current address, maybe not. And they can get more personal info on you by doing a records search for traffic tickets.

But even if they narrow it down to your name and current address they still don't have makes, models or serial numbers.

Quoted: Not that they don't because they don't want one, it's more of a lack of technology.  The ATF is one of the least progressive orgs.  Come on, they just got the EZCheck up & running reliably, allowing faxed FFL's....

They don't need to know what you have, just that you have something. How many haven't bought a gun since NICS was in place.

To consolidate data from god knows how many FFL's across the nation, I'm just not seeing it.  Just my opinion.  To my knowledged the 4473's don't leave the shops?

They don't.
That doesn't stop them from scanning the ones they want.

Bottom line is if you bought a gun under NICs you would be foolish to think there is not some record of you as a gunowner, somewhere. And even if all they have is your name, state and b'day it is an easy connect. Hell I can find people on the internet, it just ain't that hard.

For those of you who really want to fire up the 'paranoia machine' the BATFE has established regional areas that have bullet/casing check machines.  Our PD got theirs about six months ago.  Every firearm that comes into the PD for any reason is test fired into a giant vat of water.  The bullet is recovered and recorded with the serial number of the weapon and the casing marks are recorded with a special camera for later identification if needed.  That's every firearm brought in for any reason, even if it is for safekeeping  after being recovered from a suspect in a burglary.  Before it can be returned to the owner it has to be recorded.  The BATFE ties the grant monies to the 100% compliance.  The BATFE has said that their eventual goal is to have a NATIONWIDE database for casing and rifling marks.  How many years will it take before they require the gun manufacturers to submit a fired bullet and casing for each gun manufactured to a national database?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is there a firearms database built using NICS checks, 4473’s and/or other sources? And 4473's have ADDRESSES on them. I wonder if they've been geocoded yet? By whom? If you buy a gun from me only I have the 4473 and the information on it. If not from the 4473, then from the NICS records.....? Shitty database. If you have NO record then they only know a person by that "name" and DOB who is a resident of that "state" was approved for either a handgun, longun or both. Maybe with the name and DOB they could research your current address, maybe not. And they can get more personal info on you by doing a records search for traffic tickets. But even if they narrow it down to your name and current address they still don't have makes, models or serial numbers.

Do they do recordkeeping compliance checks or anything where they could get at your files (4473's) and scan them in with a high speed scanner?

Quoted: For those of you who really want to fire up the 'paranoia machine' the BATFE has established regional areas that have bullet/casing check machines.  Our PD got theirs about six months ago.  Every firearm that comes into the PD for any reason is test fired into a giant vat of water.  The bullet is recovered and recorded with the serial number of the weapon and the casing marks are recorded with a special camera for later identification if needed.  That's every firearm brought in for any reason, even if it is for safekeeping  after being recovered from a suspect in a burglary.  Before it can be returned to the owner it has to be recorded.  The BATFE ties the grant monies to the 100% compliance.  The BATFE has said that their eventual goal is to have a NATIONWIDE database for casing and rifling marks.  How many years will it take before they require the gun manufacturers to submit a fired bullet and casing for each gun manufactured to a national database?

Definitely working on that.
Not to tough to get replacement barrels though. Thought about picking a few up for my handguns. One of these days.

Quoted: Do they do recordkeeping compliance checks or anything where they could get at your files (4473's) and scan them in with a high speed scanner?

In the 4 years I've been in business only 2 4473s have been provided to ATF.

One was a firearm trace concerning a stolen gun that was recovered from an arrested criminal. The 4473 was used to identify the last person it was transferred to and that information was used to find a report of theft with the local PD and the owner got his gun back,

The other was a non approval where the firearm was NOT transferred to that individual. ATF requested a copy the NON APPROVAL 4473 a couple weeks after the fact. I have no details on what became of that situation.

According to the FOPA 1986 the ATF is NOT allowed to simply make copies of 4473s and bound books. They must be doing a specific firearms search or following up something like a NON APPROVAL.

Of course that doesn't mean instances of infractions have NOT occured.

Quoted: They don't need to know what you have, just that you have something. How many haven't bought a gun since NICS was in place.

In that case they could just check to see who has a carry permit/license.

Quoted: Quoted: They don't need to know what you have, just that you have something. How many haven't bought a gun since NICS was in place. In that case they could just check to see who has a carry permit/license.

Not everyone who bough has a carry permit.  I guess they would cross reference those two databases and know both.

There's definitely one maintianed by the PA State Police for all handguns purchased in the state......

Don't forget that either the city of Chicago,or the state of New York{I can't remember which one},sued the federal govt. for acces to the NICs data base,and stored 4473's,to obtain info on potential gun runners from out of state,and they won.They won due to the many confiscated firearms that were found in their A.O. but were brought in from outside. They have a current data base that they can give access to who ever they choose,be it the federal govt. or any state entity.
And there are manufacturers that already keep a fired round and casing along with putting a fired shell casing in a manilla onvelope inside the box with the firearm being sold to a dealer.Lama does this ,as i have one.The dealer is supposed to either keep the shell casing with the 4473,or hand it over to his state police.

Quoted: Don't forget that either the city of Chicago,or the state of New York{I can't remember which one},sued the federal govt. for acces to the NICs data base,and stored 4473's,to obtain info on potential gun runners from out of state,and they won.They won due to the many confiscated firearms that were found in their A.O. but were brought in from outside. They have a current data base that they can give access to who ever they choose,be it the federal govt. or any state entity. And there are manufacturers that already keep a fired round and casing along with putting a fired shell casing in a manilla onvelope inside the box with the firearm being sold to a dealer.Lama does this ,as i have one.The dealer is supposed to either keep the shell casing with the 4473,or hand it over to his state police.

I think it was Chicago - it was a FOIA to get access to the ATF FORMS : "ATF Multiple Sales or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers" (USC 27 Code of Federal Regulations, Section 178, 126A.)  I believe the case was : ATF v City of Chitown

Just a side note, I went down to the DOL last month, requested and received, a copy of each firearm they have on record as being sold to me.  Talk about errors.....  It was a humorous read to say the least.

If I understand it correctly, All CA sales go through an FFL on a 4473, and now NICS Correct (maybe excepting C&R's, black powder rifles, etc.?)  Handguns are also reported to DOJ.

Yet when discussing this on the phone (that 4473's are not themselves "registered" per se), the officer was aghast.  You bought a rifle and it's NOT REGISTERED!!!!???? she said.  Fortunately, I found someone else who knew what they were talking about.  Sad to say, the first one seemed very unfamiliar with the law on firearms.

The thing that angers me about this is that it's this kind of ignorance that fuels the approach by some officers of, "well, I'm I'm not sure, so I better arrest him and let the DA sort it out."